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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: Crash Photos

Kolbers,



I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something that 

happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more about it.  

Usually, I do not find much more informantion.  A few days ago, I found a 

report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana.  I Googled and 

found the following site.  It was not a FireFly, but the photos were 

interesting. 



It can be seen at:



http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/man_injured_following_plane_cr.php



Wet and cold.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: Crash Photos

Ouch! Them little stick airplanes don't fare too well in a crunch. Fine reporting about the pilot "being taxied". So dumb it just makes me cringe.



Rick Girard

do not archive

 

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:38 AM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

 

 Kolbers,

 

 I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something that

 happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more about it.

 Usually, I do not find much more informantion.  A few days ago, I found a

 report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana.  I Googled and

 found the following site.  It was not a FireFly, but the photos were

 interesting.

 

 It can be seen at:

 

 http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/man_injured_following_plane_cr.php

 

 Wet and cold.

 

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Kip

Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 51

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Crash Photos

Yep. Too much wood for me in this bird...

_________________
2000 Firestar II
R503 DCDI
VLS 750

2010 Waiex
Jabiru 3300

2020 Pitts Special S-1C

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: Crash Photos

Looks like a Fisher,LMA or Roger mann design...  Certainly was not 

just "Taxiing"  !! Herb

At 07:38 AM 10/16/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Kolbers,



I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something that

happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more about it.

Usually, I do not find much more informantion.  A few days ago, I found a

report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana.  I Googled and

found the following site.  It was not a FireFly, but the photos were

interesting.



It can be seen at:



http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/man_injured_following_plane_cr.php



Wet and cold.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

10/15/09 20:39:00

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: Crash Photos

Dare I suggest that this pilot lacked some basic training? I suspect  

he had the stick full BACK while taxiing  downwind, the wind got  

under the elevators and flipped him upside-down.

The stick should be FORWARD with a strong tailwind, and also when  

tied down, for that matter.

Don't they teach basics any more??? Or didn't he ever get any  

instruction from a CFI?

Sorry to see his crash, but I think it could have been avoided. I  

think a Kolb could have been flipped the same way, with enough wind.  

Poor piloting technique, IMHO

Russ K

do not archive



On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>



 Kolbers,



 I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something  

 that

 happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more  

 about it.

 Usually, I do not find much more informantion.  A few days ago, I  

 found a

 report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana.  I  

 Googled and

 found the following site.  It was not a FireFly, but the photos were

 interesting.



 It can be seen at:



 http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/ 

 man_injured_following_plane_cr.php



 Wet and cold.



 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: Crash Photos

Hey Russ, I agree with your comment about  the guy getting any instruction 

from a CFI. Period. But from the pics I saw, could any airplane stand on its 

nose, from a taxi-ing mode & destruct the wings,& fuse from  just being 

blown over from the rear? IMHO, I think this guy impacted almost straight 

down from a Flight Above the ground. Ribs destroyed, fuse crumpled??? Wind? 

: )

Jim Kmet

912  MK-3CCookeville, TN

---

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: Crash Photos

Jim, Russ and all,

 Maybe during the taxi he got airborne a little and  then not knowing how to handle the plane, crashed.  If the wind was blowing  that also would have been a factor.  

 As for the severe damage, well, it could possibly happen from  a taxi mishap.  My buddies Kolb FireStar was blown over by the wind, while  parked.  The left wing went up, then with the right wing and the tail on  the ground, the whole plane went all the way over onto its back.  It  came down pretty hard and bent the boom tube 45 degrees, both wings  crumpled badly, tail structure bent, wood prop broke and just a real  mess.

 Bill Varnes

 Do not archive

  In a message dated 10/16/2009 6:14:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Kmet"    <jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net>

Hey Russ, I agree with your comment    about  the guy getting any instruction 

from a CFI. Period. But from    the pics I saw, could any airplane stand on its 

nose, from a taxi-ing mode    & destruct the wings,& fuse from  just being 

blown over from    the rear? IMHO, I think this guy impacted almost straight 

down from a    Flight Above the ground. Ribs destroyed, fuse crumpled??? Wind? 

:    )

Jim Kmet

912  MK-3CCookeville, TN

-----    Original Message ----- 

From: "russ kinne" <russkinne(at)mac.com>

To:    <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:48    PM

Subject: Re: Crash Photos

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List    message posted by: russ kinne <russkinne(at)mac.com>

 Dare I    suggest that this pilot lacked some basic training? I suspect  he    

 had the stick full BACK while taxiing  downwind, the wind    got  under the 

 elevators and flipped him upside-down.

    The stick should be FORWARD with a strong tailwind, and also when  tied    

 down, for that matter.

 Don't they teach basics any more??? Or    didn't he ever get any  instruction 

 from a CFI?

 Sorry to    see his crash, but I think it could have been avoided. I  think a    

 Kolb could have been flipped the same way, with enough wind.     Poor 

 piloting technique, IMHO

 Russ K

 do not    archive

 On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Jack B. Hart    wrote:

> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart"    

> <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

>

>    Kolbers,

>

> I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and    when I find something  that

> happens close by in Indiana, I    searched to find out a little more  about 

> it.

>    Usually, I do not find much more informantion.  A few days ago, I     found 

> a

> report on a nonregistered ultralight at    Bedford, Indiana.  I  Googled and

> found the following    site.  It was not a FireFly, but the photos were

>    interesting.

>

> It can be seen    at:

>

> http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/    

> man_injured_following_plane_cr.php

>

> Wet    and cold.

>

> Jack B. Hart FF004

> Winchester,    IN

>

  ======================== the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================

  [quote][b]

donaho1(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: Crash photos

One thing I think is for sure,  the aircraft DID NOT hit on the landing 

gear as they don`t appear to be bent in any way. The fabric isn`t even 

wrinkled. This makes me think the aircraft did indeed flip over without 

being airborne.     Lanny FSII   Do not archive

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: Crash photos

> This makes me think the aircraft did indeed flip over without 

 	  Quote: 	
		   being airborne. Lanny FSII Do not archive


	


Lanny C

 

  Respectfully C are you kidding??!!!  Are you telling us this airplane just rolled forward onto it's nose C and received all this damage??!!!   And this guy needed a helicopter to transport him to a second hospital!!    Please!!   He has leg injuries C for Pete's sake.  Jeesh!!

  

   (Let's apply some common sense to this investigation analysis.  

 A) He's a new pilot and has a new plane.  

 B) So C 99.9% the winds were calm.  

 C) He doesn't want to give out incriminating information C so he says "he was taxiing".  Yet C he incurred severe leg injuries.  Exactly how do you get severe leg injuries from taxiing??  D)  "He dropped a wing."  Again C since when does "dropping a wing" annilate your airplane to smithereens??

 E) Plus C there's plenty of other evidence this guy flew his airplane into the asphalt!)

 

  First of all C I speak from experience.  I crashed an ultralight just like this (the crash was similar C not the ultralight)!!!  Did you catch that?  It felt like deja vu C looking at the photos of the plane in a pile on it's nose.

    My damage was quite a bit less than his C but similar C and I WAS airborne prior to crashing!  THAT is why it didn't hurt the landing gear.  His airplane C like mine C NOSED IN!!!  Look at his photos!!

 

  First C I'm certain this guy said he was doing "(high speed) "taxi" tests C hence the taxi reference.   He also said he "dropped" a wing".  How do you drop a wing C unless you're flying?  The wing stalled.  Been there C done that. (regretfully)

 

  Second C he obviously became airborne C as I did C and didn't handle it well.  He clearly stalled and nosed in.  This explains his leg injuries C and not contacting the landing gear.

 

  Third C he crashed because he didn't have proper instruction C in essence C a flight instructor!!  I wonder C now C if getting proper flight instruction seems like a good idea to this guy?  Hmm? 

  

   To bring this topic into being Kolb related; we Kolb builder's sometimes think that some long lost flight training (like me) C or if we just go about it slowly (crow hops) C we'll be okay.

 MAYBE!!  Yes C some of us have successfully flown our newly built planes and lived to tell about it....without proper flight training.  Can it be done?  Sure.  Is it a good plan??  Not likely!  Many of us have paid a big price for such a gamble!!!

  

   There are enough Kolb owners among us that have not "lived to tell about it" C or at least damaged their planes and themselves when they could have avoided such a tragedy.

  

   Build your plane!!  Then C get instruction!!!!  Why risk yourself or your plane to such an occurrence?  Flight instructors serve a useful purpose.  I will be using one's guidance to hopefully keep me from repeating this crash scenario.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII CX



 		 	   		  Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get5/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now.  [quote][b]

donaho1(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: Crash photos

Geesh Mike, Respectfully, take a chill pill. If he stuck it in like a lawn 

dart, as you imply. It is my opinion that the gear would be at least a 

little twisted. The wheels would at least be out of alignment.  Since, I 

did not witness this incident, I as well as you, are only making a guess as 

to what happened. If his gear are that strong, I think I will change mine 

to his design.    Lanny FSII      PS  I may be gullable, however, I try 

never to lie. Therefore, if a person says something happened a certain way, 

I am inclined to belive them until I have proof they are lying. I should 

know better after teaching high school students for 35 years. However, I am 

what I am.    Do not archive

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: Crash photos

surely looks like he got airborne...maybe 50 to 100 feet 

..panicked...stalled...came down very steeply...   I have dropped my 

Mini Max in from 20 feet with minimal damage...Herb

At 01:18 PM 10/17/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Geesh Mike, Respectfully, take a chill pill. If he stuck it in like 

a lawn dart, as you imply. It is my opinion that the gear would be 

at least a little twisted. The wheels would at least be out of 

alignment.  Since, I did not witness this incident, I as well as 

you, are only making a guess as to what happened. If his gear are 

that strong, I think I will change mine to his design.    Lanny 

FSII      PS  I may be gullable, however, I try never to lie. 

Therefore, if a person says something happened a certain way, I am 

inclined to belive them until I have proof they are lying. I should 

know better after teaching high school students for 35 years. 

However, I am what I am.    Do not archive



Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

10/16/09 18:39:00

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: Crash Photos

Could have been doing a high speed taxi, groundlooped, and caught a wing 

tip.  Or... ask Bill Sullivan how one can destroy a plane while intending 

to do nothing but taxiing.



-Dana

--

  The two most common elements in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: Crash photos

> Geesh Mike C Respectfully C take a chill pill. If he stuck it in like a lawn 

 	  Quote: 	
		   dart C as you imply. It is my opinion that the gear would be at least a 

 little twisted. The wheels would at least be out of alignment. Since C I 

 did not witness this incident C I as well as you C are only making a guess as 

 to what happened. If his gear are that strong C I think I will change mine 

 to his design. Lanny FSII PS I may be gullable C however C I try 

 never to lie. Therefore C if a person says something happened a certain way C 

 I am inclined to belive them until I have proof they are lying. I should 

 know better after teaching high school students for 35 years. However C I am 

 what I am. Do not archive


	


 Lanny C

  

   Chill pill?  Ok.

  

   I think Herb has it correct.  I think 50 feet or higher C then nosed it in.  That would explain his plane being obliterated C collapsing the fuselage C and his legs getting squashed in the process.  That would also explain zero wheel/gear damage....landing on the nose.

  

   If you want to believe he simply nosed over C that's ok with me.

  

   I crashed an ultralight doing what I believe he did.  I had zero wheel damage.  Didn't land on the wheels C landed on the nose.  Hurt like heck C too.  The plane was squished up to the idiot's seat.  I hope I've learned from that.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII CX

  

   Are you saying high school students never lie?  I think they perfect it!

  

   

 		 	   		  Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Wiirect/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now.  [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:03 am Post subject: Crash Photos

Maybe during the taxi he got airborne a little  >>

  

 Wow, just seen the pics. it looks as though he got  airborne a lot. Nose pushed back level with the leading edge. Wings broken free  from the root fixings at least and smashed back past the leading edge. A hell of  a wack  to break a fuselage and bend the tail forward like that. No damage  to the undercart. I will go with the hypothesis that he was coming down almost  vertically when he hit. I think the undamaged u/c is the clincher. Flatter and  the u/c would have spread. A bit steeper and the wheels would have been knocked  backwards.

  

 Just my five penn`orth  (sorry,  cents)

  

 Past

   [quote][b]

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: Crash Photos

Russ, you may be right about flipping over backwards but the straight 

down look of the impact makes me wonder more if he didn't get 

airborne, then panicked and pushed the nose down.

jerb

At 02:48 PM 10/16/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Dare I suggest that this pilot lacked some basic training? I suspect

he had the stick full BACK while taxiing  downwind, the wind got

under the elevators and flipped him upside-down.

The stick should be FORWARD with a strong tailwind, and also when

tied down, for that matter.

Don't they teach basics any more??? Or didn't he ever get any

instruction from a CFI?

Sorry to see his crash, but I think it could have been avoided. I

think a Kolb could have been flipped the same way, with enough wind.

Poor piloting technique, IMHO

Russ K

do not archive



On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:



>

><jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

>

>Kolbers,

>

>I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something

>that

>happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more

>about it.

>Usually, I do not find much more informantion.  A few days ago, I

>found a

>report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana.  I

>Googled and

>found the following site.  It was not a FireFly, but the photos were

>interesting.

>

>It can be seen at:

>

>http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/ 

>man_injured_following_plane_cr.php

>

>Wet and cold.

>

>Jack B. Hart FF004

>Winchester, IN

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: Crash Photos

Jerb, I never meant he flipped over backwards; it's pretty obvious he  

went over forwards.

Judging from the gear condition, I think others listers are right in  

thinking he got airborne, maybe only 10-15', and nosed it in.  If he  

got into the air, panicked and shoved the stick forward to get back  

on the ground immediately, this could easily result.

Bottom  line, IMHO, is still lack of training/instruction.

Russ K

do not archive



On Oct 18, 2009, at 8:15 PM, jerb wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Russ, you may be right about flipping over backwards but the  

 straight down look of the impact makes me wonder more if he didn't  

 get airborne, then panicked and pushed the nose down.

 jerb

 At 02:48 PM 10/16/2009, you wrote:

> 

>

> Dare I suggest that this pilot lacked some basic training? I suspect

> he had the stick full BACK while taxiing  downwind, the wind got

> under the elevators and flipped him upside-down.

> The stick should be FORWARD with a strong tailwind, and also when

> tied down, for that matter.

> Don't they teach basics any more??? Or didn't he ever get any

> instruction from a CFI?

> Sorry to see his crash, but I think it could have been avoided. I

> think a Kolb could have been flipped the same way, with enough wind.

> Poor piloting technique, IMHO

> Russ K

> do not archive

>

> On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:

>

>> 

>> <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

>>

>> Kolbers,

>>

>> I view the FAA Accident and Incident List and when I find something

>> that

>> happens close by in Indiana, I searched to find out a little more

>> about it.

>> Usually, I do not find much more informantion.  A few days ago, I

>> found a

>> report on a nonregistered ultralight at Bedford, Indiana.  I

>> Googled and

>> found the following site.  It was not a FireFly, but the photos were

>> interesting.

>>

>> It can be seen at:

>>

>> http://www.wbiw.com/local/archives/2009/10/  

>> man_injured_following_plane_cr.php

>>

>> Wet and cold.

>>

>> Jack B. Hart FF004

>> Winchester, IN

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

George Myers

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: San Marcos, Texas

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: Crash Photos

Maybe he did a 'Crow Flop'.



--

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: Crash Photos

I'm not an accident investigator, but you guys got me interested. The trouble I have with the dive it into the dirt theory is I don't think it's possible to dive the airplane into the ground from a survivable altitude in such a way as to not tear up the main gear. My guess, and that is exactly what it is, is that he got the tail up and either in a panic or accidentally or through some kind of brake lock up (it appears to have 5" Azusa drum brakes) he locked up the brakes and just went right over on his snout.  Look at the struts, the channel carry through and the landing gear. The gear is almost pristine and the struts don't appear to be bent forward very much. The position of the engine wreckage is more like it was wiped off the aircraft and exited out of the debris field to the right side rather than simply crumpling inward. Anyway, it makes for some head churning and gives me a bit more appreciation for the guys who really do crash investigation.

Hope the pilot recovers fully.

Rick Girard

do not archive

 

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:55 PM, George Myers <gmyers(at)grandecom.net (gmyers(at)grandecom.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Myers" <gmyers(at)grandecom.net (gmyers(at)grandecom.net)>

 

 Maybe he did a 'Crow Flop'.

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:18 am Post subject: Crash Photos

locked up the brakes and just went right over on  his snout. Look

at the struts, the channel carry through and the landing  gear. The gear is

almost pristine and the struts don't appear to be bent  forward very much.>>

  

 Hi Richard,

 as you say, it is an interesting problem. However,  I can`t imagine any scenario where the fuselage would break with the tail  forward except a sudden full stop with quite a lot of forward motion. No brakes  I ever saw could produce traction like that.Even assuming that they could the  wheels would skid. The only way I can see this damage   happening  is driving full chat into a solid wall or diving into the  ground.

 The struts have not moved forward much because  there is nowhere for them to go. The wing is buried in the tarmac halfway to the  main spar so the struts maximum forward movement could only be around 18 inches  or maybe 2ft.

  

 Did no investigaton take place?. Here there would  be a CAA report somewhere and probably available on line.

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: Crash Photos

I don't know how the man listed his name or how discriminating the FAA database is when doing a name search, but just using the name from the news report, Gary Fender, no registration record is returned.  None of the pictures show an N number, but the area where it might be is obscured by the horizontal stab. If he was operating as an ultralight any NTSB investigation is unlikely since ultralights aren't considered aircraft, they're a sporting device with no covering federal agency. That was the logic by which FAA got out of controlling ultralights in the beginning, I don't know if that's their rationale these days. If they weigh the wreckage and find the owner was in violation then some sort of enforcement action might take place, otherwise there was no passenger involved and the only property damage done was to his own so he'll most likely not be hearing from the feds. 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:17 AM, pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 [quote]       locked up the brakes and just went right over on  his snout. Look

at the struts, the channel carry through and the landing  gear. The gear is

almost pristine and the struts don't appear to be bent  forward very much.>>

  

 

Hi Richard,

 as you say, it is an interesting problem. However,  I can`t imagine any scenario where the fuselage would break with the tail  forward except a sudden full stop with quite a lot of forward motion. No brakes  I ever saw could produce traction like that.Even assuming that they could the  wheels would skid. The only way I can see this damage   happening  is driving full chat into a solid wall or diving into the  ground.

 The struts have not moved forward much because  there is nowhere for them to go. The wing is buried in the tarmac halfway to the  main spar so the struts maximum forward movement could only be around 18 inches  or maybe 2ft.

  

 Did no investigaton take place?. Here there would  be a CAA report somewhere and probably available on line.

  

 Pat

 



    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

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[b]

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