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grantr
Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Posts: 217
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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All this liability and sueing talk has me worried. I will be listing my plane for sale soon as I don’t need 2 aircraft. It is airworthy and I will demo for any person that wants to see it. That should be prove enough that it is safe IMO or I wouldn’t fly it! But if I sell it and the buyer crashes it and get hurt or worse killed what is my best defense against getting sued? I am not the builder. If I am sued how can I protect my assets? File Bankruptcy move all my assets out of my name to my wife’s name?
I don’t have a ton of saving but I sure would hate to lose them on legal fees and paying out on a law suit. I would represent myself due to the cost of a lawyer.
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rickofudall
![](images/avatars/6819866474ce9fe39455d6.jpg)
Joined: 19 Sep 2009 Posts: 1392 Location: Udall, KS, USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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Grant, If you are truly that worried about it spend a few hundred bucks and go see a good lawyer for advice. Getting it from people who are obsessing and guessing will get you nowhere. I don't say this to be rude, just to save you a lot of worry and distress. Liability law is too complex to be handled on an airplane forum by amateurs. The advice you get here will be worth exactly what you pay for it.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:27 PM, grantr <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com (grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com (grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com)>
All this liability and sueing talk has me worried. I will be listing my plane for sale soon as I don’t need 2 aircraft. It is airworthy and I will demo for any person that wants to see it. That should be prove enough that it is safe IMO or I wouldn’t fly it! But if I sell it and the buyer crashes it and get hurt or worse killed what is my best defense against getting sued? I am not the builder. If I am sued how can I protect my assets? File Bankruptcy move all my assets out of my name to my wife’s name?
I don’t have a ton of saving but I sure would hate to lose them on legal fees and paying out on a law suit. I would represent myself due to the cost of a lawyer.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267135#267135
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herbgh(at)nctc.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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The EAA site probably has the best example of a bill of sale...Herb
At 02:27 PM 10/8/2009, you wrote:
Quote: |
All this liability and sueing talk has me
worried. I will be listing my plane for sale
soon as I don’t need 2 aircraft. It is
airworthy and I will demo for any person that
wants to see it. That should be prove enough
that it is safe IMO or I wouldn’t fly it!
But if I sell it and the buyer crashes it and
get hurt or worse killed what is my best defense
against getting sued? I am not the builder. If
I am sued how can I protect my assets? File
Bankruptcy move all my assets out of my name to my wife’s name?
I don’t have a ton of saving but I sure would
hate to lose them on legal fees and paying out
on a law suit. I would represent myself due to the cost of a lawyer.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 67135#267135
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
- Release Date: 10/08/09 18:33:00
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Thom Riddle
![](images/avatars/1237767069518b8b321e02a.jpg)
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1597 Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:07 am Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane? |
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The best defense against lawsuits is very simple.... poverty. Lawyers first and foremost look for deep pockets. If they don't find worthwhile attachable assets then they stop bothering you.
do not archive
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_________________ Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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russkinne(at)mac.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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Seems to me poverty is common if not rampant in the flying fraternity.
Maybe we're safe!
do not archive
On Oct 9, 2009, at 8:07 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
Quote: |
The best defense against lawsuits is very simple.... poverty.
Lawyers first and foremost look for deep pockets. If they don't
find worthwhile attachable assets then they stop bothering you.
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x34
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved
from a simple system that works.
- John Gaule
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Possums
Joined: 03 Nov 2007 Posts: 247
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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At 08:07 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
Quote: |
The best defense against lawsuits is very simple.... poverty.
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I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the
Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?
I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.
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Description: |
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![](images/icon_clip.gif) Download |
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LiabilityFormYoungEagles.pdf |
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54.7 KB |
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442 Time(s) |
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JetPilot
![](images/avatars/1330309113447f779f77e0b.jpg)
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1246
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane? |
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Possums wrote: |
I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the
Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?
I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.
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Here is what you have to understand. No variation, no document, no contract, in no way would ever work. The person that buys your plane may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details, BUT.... The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.
Mike
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_________________ "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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Possums
Joined: 03 Nov 2007 Posts: 247
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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Guess I should just burn it then?
At 07:22 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
Quote: |
Possums wrote:
>>
> I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the
> Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?
> I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.
>
Here is what you have to understand. No variation, no document, no
contract, in no way would ever work. The person that buys your
plane may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details,
BUT.... The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the
rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
you could have !!!
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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nah, sell it to me cheap. I won't sue. (I gar-un-tee)
BB
On 10, Oct 2009, at 4:10 PM, possums wrote:
Quote: |
Guess I should just burn it then?
At 07:22 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>
> Possums wrote:
> >>
> > I found the Liability Form the EAA uses for the
> > Young Eagles, maybe a variation of it would work?
> > I would think their lawyers have reviewed it to death by now.
> >
> Here is what you have to understand. No variation, no document, no
> contract, in no way would ever work. The person that buys your
> plane may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details,
> BUT.... The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the
> rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> as you could have !!!
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elleryweld(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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if You give it to me I promise not to launch a lawsuit on you
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
--
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aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz Guest
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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Even better send it to New Zealand get good money for it and we do not sue anyone.
Downunder
[quote] ---
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Don G
![](images/avatars/210128542358e14a7d6966d.jpg)
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 156 Location: Central Illinois
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Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane? |
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Grant,
Here is my advice..although as has been already said...its worth what you are paying for it...
Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...
then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the wings off and take out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and have him help so he can see how to put it back together..
Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that is NOT in flying condition...parts sale only.
Pack it up and send him on his way.
Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he kills himself in it then.
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_________________ Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A |
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Dana
![](images/avatars/26557049548fd2baf92001.jpg)
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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On this subject, I came across this last night while searching for
something else:
<http://www.aviationlawcorp.com/content/liabhomeblt.html>
-Dana
--
Does fuzzy logic tickle?
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Rick Lewis
Joined: 03 Jul 2007 Posts: 122 Location: Kingston, Tn.
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:09 am Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane? |
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I have already been through this when I sold my Cozy. I was very concerned about a law suit as you are. In talking to a lawyer about this, he told me there was NO document available that could be singed that would protect you from a law suit. I sold the Cozy anyway and had the guy sign the document that the EAA came up with. Four months later he resold the plane and now all bets are off. I also actually thought about dismantling the plane and selling parts but any piece that I built I was liable for. But that's the key word, "I BUILT". If you did NOT build the plane you are not liable, at all, for the planes construction defects. That liability will fall back on the original builder. If you sell a Piper aircraft, you are not responsible for the construction defects that may be there.
Here is the other down fall. Even if you did not build the plane you could still find yourself in court were you may win the case but you have spent a lot of money defending yourself. I don't call that winning either. The more money there lawyer thinks you have the more likely you will end up in court, simple as that.
Rick Lewis
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Bethelhem, PA
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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Kolbers,
The discussion we're seeing on liability is an indictment on the lack of
personal responsibility that is becoming more and more prevalent in our
society. We're turning into a bunch of whining, puking babies, to quote
a master.
Re: my catastrophic failure at over 1000' AGL in an underconstructed
Chicken Hawk, I did try to locate the mfgr. in Bellingham, WA, but
learned he was out of business. I intended to sue the manufacturer,
since the manufacturer has the responsibility to build a product that is
adequate for its intended purpose, and just as the consumer doesn't have
the obligation to check the tensile strength of the tie rods of the car
he buys, I should not be expected to research the cables used for the
flight controls, which had failed.
But!!! that's where it stops with a reasonable person in this kind of
situation. I never considered suing the man I bought the UL from, the
fellow who put it together, the owner of the strip I flew out of, or
even the man a mile from the airstrip whose brush growing along his
drive served to allow me to survive the fall. None of them had any
responsibility for the construction of or my decision to fly the
aircraft. And since I've raised my children with the same personal
responsibility philosophy that was bred into me, it's highly unlikely
they would have acted any differently if I hadn't survived.
Bottom line: anyone can sue anyone for almost anything, so you can't
shovel snow perfectly enough to totally escape the threat of a lawsuit.
I believe it's best to just relax, go about life in a reasonable manner,
and fight the bozos when you must. There are too many of them on the
loose to avoid them entirely!
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
You can check
www.matronics.com/photoshare/undoctor(at)rcn.com.05.07.2007 if you'd
like to check pics, etc. of the failure and crash.
Time: 06:11:03 PM PST US
Subject: Re: law suit after selling plane?
From: "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>
Grant,
Here is my advice..although as has been already said...its worth
what you are
paying for it...
Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...
then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the
wings off and take
out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and have
him help so
he can see how to put it back together..
Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that
is NOT in flying
condition...parts sale only.
Pack it up and send him on his way.
Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he
kills himself in
it then.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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not much of an airfoil on that corntraption Dave. In the mid 70s when
those kinds of toys became popular I also
was fascinated by the simplicity of bare bones flying machines. I
already had a PPL and a "real" airplane but
still was curious. What saved me from buying one was the high
prices. $3000 for a pile of pipes and cloth
was ridiculous when You could buy a used certificated airplane for the
same amount.
The gap of reality between planes like the Baby Ace and the sleazy
stuff like the chicken hawk fortunately got
closed with the likes of Kolbs, Flightstars, etc.
BB
On 22, Oct 2009, at 10:13 AM, Dave Kulp wrote:
Quote: |
Kolbers,
The discussion we're seeing on liability is an indictment on the
lack of personal responsibility that is becoming more and more
prevalent in our society. We're turning into a bunch of whining,
puking babies, to quote a master.
Re: my catastrophic failure at over 1000' AGL in an underconstructed
Chicken Hawk, I did try to locate the mfgr. in Bellingham, WA, but
learned he was out of business. I intended to sue the manufacturer,
since the manufacturer has the responsibility to build a product
that is adequate for its intended purpose, and just as the consumer
doesn't have the obligation to check the tensile strength of the tie
rods of the car he buys, I should not be expected to research the
cables used for the flight controls, which had failed.
But!!! that's where it stops with a reasonable person in this kind
of situation. I never considered suing the man I bought the UL
from, the fellow who put it together, the owner of the strip I flew
out of, or even the man a mile from the airstrip whose brush growing
along his drive served to allow me to survive the fall. None of
them had any responsibility for the construction of or my decision
to fly the aircraft. And since I've raised my children with the
same personal responsibility philosophy that was bred into me, it's
highly unlikely they would have acted any differently if I hadn't
survived.
Bottom line: anyone can sue anyone for almost anything, so you can't
shovel snow perfectly enough to totally escape the threat of a
lawsuit. I believe it's best to just relax, go about life in a
reasonable manner, and fight the bozos when you must. There are too
many of them on the loose to avoid them entirely!
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
You can check www.matronics.com/photoshare/undoctor(at)rcn.com.05.07.2007
if you'd like to check pics, etc. of the failure and crash.
Time: 06:11:03 PM PST US
Subject: Re: law suit after selling plane?
From: "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>
Grant,
Here is my advice..although as has been already said...its
worth what you are
paying for it...
Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...
then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the
wings off and take
out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and have
him help so
he can see how to put it back together..
Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that
is NOT in flying
condition...parts sale only.
Pack it up and send him on his way.
Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he
kills himself in
it then.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
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russkinne(at)mac.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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Just one small addendum to Dave Kulp's good description of liability
in our flying -- get all the signed releases you reasonably can.
These little pieces of paper can save your tail some day. Might
include one saying "in buying this (whatever) I understand that it is
not new, and the seller accepts no responsibility for it in case it
fails"
Or "I am flying in this aircraft of my own free will, and don't
hold the owner, builder, or pilot responsible in any way if a crash
occurs"
No doubt legal-trained people can refine the wording, but it's a
great help to have SOMETHING if trouble occurs.
Unfortunately, you can't expect lawyers to act like "responsible
people", and remember they're hired to win the case, not be popular
or reasonable.
Also, where substantial amounts of money are on the horizon, even
"responsible people" sometimes act very differently.
A sad situation, but there it is. A few pieces of paper can save you
a lot of time, aggravation, cash, you name it.
But above all, fly safe & avoid all this if you can.
Russ K
do not archive
On Oct 22, 2009, at 10:13 AM, Dave Kulp wrote:
Quote: |
Kolbers,
The discussion we're seeing on liability is an indictment on the
lack of personal responsibility that is becoming more and more
prevalent in our society. We're turning into a bunch of whining,
puking babies, to quote a master.
Re: my catastrophic failure at over 1000' AGL in an
underconstructed Chicken Hawk, I did try to locate the mfgr. in
Bellingham, WA, but learned he was out of business. I intended to
sue the manufacturer, since the manufacturer has the responsibility
to build a product that is adequate for its intended purpose, and
just as the consumer doesn't have the obligation to check the
tensile strength of the tie rods of the car he buys, I should not
be expected to research the cables used for the flight controls,
which had failed.
But!!! that's where it stops with a reasonable person in this kind
of situation. I never considered suing the man I bought the UL
from, the fellow who put it together, the owner of the strip I flew
out of, or even the man a mile from the airstrip whose brush
growing along his drive served to allow me to survive the fall.
None of them had any responsibility for the construction of or my
decision to fly the aircraft. And since I've raised my children
with the same personal responsibility philosophy that was bred into
me, it's highly unlikely they would have acted any differently if I
hadn't survived.
Bottom line: anyone can sue anyone for almost anything, so you
can't shovel snow perfectly enough to totally escape the threat of
a lawsuit. I believe it's best to just relax, go about life in a
reasonable manner, and fight the bozos when you must. There are
too many of them on the loose to avoid them entirely!
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
You can check www.matronics.com/photoshare/undoctor(at)rcn.com.
05.07.2007 if you'd like to check pics, etc. of the failure
and crash.
Time: 06:11:03 PM PST US
Subject: Re: law suit after selling plane?
From: "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>
Grant,
Here is my advice..although as has been already said...its
worth what you are
paying for it...
Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...
then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the
wings off and take
out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and
have him help so
he can see how to put it back together..
Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft
that is NOT in flying
condition...parts sale only.
Pack it up and send him on his way.
Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he
kills himself in
it then.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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Four months later he resold the plane and now all bets are off. >>.....
Hi,
not from what your next paragraph says..>>....That liability will fall back
on the ORIGINAL BUILDER
<<. If you sell a Piper aircraft, you are not responsible for the
construction defects that may be there.>>
Wasn`t there a story, maybe apocryphal about the guy who taxied his Cub into
a tree and took Piper to court on a charge of bad design because he couldn`t
see over the nose??
Cheers
Pat
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Dana
![](images/avatars/26557049548fd2baf92001.jpg)
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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At 12:32 PM 10/22/2009, pj.ladd wrote:
Quote: | Wasn`t there a story, maybe apocryphal about the guy who taxied his Cub
into a tree and took Piper to court on a charge of bad design because he
couldn`t see over the nose??
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I never heard that one (though it wouldn't surprise me) but one case that
raised a big stink some years ago was the case of a Cub that crashed due to
a failed part installed years earlier... said failed part being neither
original nor made by Piper. The widow sued Piper, the airport, the A&P who
performed the annual, the previous owner, you name it. I don't recall the
details but I think it was settled out of court.
-Dana
--
A day without sunshine is like, night.
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Possums
Joined: 03 Nov 2007 Posts: 247
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane? |
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At 09:10 PM 10/21/2009, you wrote:
Quote: |
Grant,
Here is my advice..although as has been already said...its worth
what you are paying for it...
Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...
then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the wings
off and take out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things
and have him help so he can see how to put it back together..
Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that is
NOT in flying condition...parts sale only.
Pack it up and send him on his way.
Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he kills
himself in it then.
--------
Don G.
Here is what you have to understand. No variation, no document, no
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contract, in no way would ever work. The person that buys your plane
may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details,
BUT.... The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the
rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
you could have !!!
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