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582 Ignition

 
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jareds(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:08 am    Post subject: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

Am i correct in that.............Once a 582 is running..........outside of turning the ignition off (master key switch off ) is there anything else outside of a wiring problem in between that switch and the ignition that would keep the engine from running continual?
The redundency in the ducatii ignition and the charging system inside the engine should keep it running even in the event of an electrical battery or electrical relay failure?
What is the likelyhood of the ignition system itself failing? Ignition on both wires of one cylinder would certainly bring down a fox but has anyone heard someone talk about this on the list?

[quote][b]


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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:44 pm    Post subject: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

Like any other engine there is plenty to go wrong once the engine is running…

A few things are..
The dual ignition has a common primary coil so a short on one side can stop the other side too.
There is always the issue of running out of gas… water in the fuel etc
Finally the two stroke engine requires good crank seals to operate. I was once told starting a two stroke is easy… Keeping it running is the trick!

All that said the engines are very reliable.

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of verizon
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 1:35 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: 582 Ignition



Am i correct in that.............Once a 582 is running..........outside of turning the ignition off (master key switch off ) is there anything else outside of a wiring problem in between that switch and the ignition that would keep the engine from running continual?

The redundency in the ducatii ignition and the charging system inside the engine should keep it running even in the event of an electrical battery or electrical relay failure?

What is the likelyhood of the ignition system itself failing? Ignition on both wires of one cylinder would certainly bring down a fox but has anyone heard someone talk about this on the list?


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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
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Tom Jones



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

Quote:
The dual ignition has a common primary coil so a short on one side can stop the other side too.


Noel, my understanding is there are redundant primary ignition coils in the mag so a failure of one will not kill the engine.

http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm scroll down to part #32, "Understanding the Ducati ignition".


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Tom Jones
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503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

Note: the kill switches are hooked up to the transistors in what they call
the transducers. ( I look at them as triggered secondary coils) The actual
magneto coil powering the transducers is common to both sets of plugs. A
short in that coil "LC" will definitely stop your engine. Check dia2 pg 72
( second page of part 32)

A good question is what can cause a short in that coil.. there is heat...
over work from a faulty voltage regulator and of course vibration.
Noel
--


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Tom Jones



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

Quote:
Note: the kill switches are hooked up to the transistors in what they call
the transducers. ( I look at them as triggered secondary coils) The actual
magneto coil powering the transducers is common to both sets of plugs. A
short in that coil "LC" will definitely stop your engine. Check dia2 pg 72


I believe there are two separate coils (LC-1 and LC-2) that make up the transducer supply windings. Each one of these charges each Transducer (the automobile looking coils on the outside with the spark plug wires). Each transducer fires a plug in each cylinder at the top and bottom of each stroke.

The diagram shows both transducer kill wires attached to the same kill switch. I think that is a mistake. Mine are wired to two seprate kill switches. Am I confused? I hope not or the ignition is not truly redundant.


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Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

yes we have no bananas the system is not redundant malcolm

Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A
(989)513-3022

--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:
Quote:

From: Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Subject: Re: 582 Ignition
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 2:40 AM

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <[url=/mc/compose?to=nahsikhs(at)elltel.net]nahsikhs(at)elltel.net[/url]>
Quote:
Note: the kill switches are hooked up to the transistors in what they call
the transducers. ( I look at them as triggered secondary coils) The actual
magneto coil powering the transducers is common to both sets of plugs. A
short in that coil "LC" will definitely stop your engine. Check dia2 pg 72


I believe there are two separate coils that make up the transducer supply windings (LC-1 and LC-2). Each one of these charges each Transducer (the automobile looking coils on the outside with the spark plug wires). each transducer fires a plug in each cylinder.  Am I confused, I hope not or the ignition is not truly redundant.[/b]

--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269195#26919ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://wwwp://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com &nbstp://www.matronics.com/contribution" =======



[quote][b]


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akflyer



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

There are redundant coils on the stator. There is not one set of wires that feed both trigger coils and both external coils, but two separate sets. It is conceivable that one set of coils on the stator heads south in a big way, it could take the other coils on vacation with it.

At least, this is how I understand it and how I have gone about trouble shooting a stator to figure what went south on a 582 blue head I had to work on.


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Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....
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akflyer



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part20.pdf

Kinda points out what I was saying above.


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_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: 582 Ignition Reply with quote

Then why two coils and four plugs? Might as well install a 583 "red head," no? Just asking. They're alot cheaper.

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: 582 Ignition
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 5:45 PM

yes we have no bananas the system is not redundant malcolm

Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A
(989)513-3022

--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:
Quote:

From: Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Subject: Re: 582 Ignition
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 2:40 AM

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Quote:
Note: the kill switches are hooked up to the transistors in what they call
the transducers. ( I look at them as triggered secondary coils) The actual
magneto coil powering the transducers is common to both sets of plugs. A
short in that coil "LC" will definitely stop your engine. Check dia2 pg 72


I believe there are two separate coils that make up the transducer supply windings (LC-1 and LC-2). Each one of these charges each Transducer (the automobile looking coils on the outside with the spark plug wires). each transducer fires a plug in each cylinder.  Am I confused, I hope not or the ignition is not truly redundant.[/b]

--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269195#26919ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://wwwp://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com   &nbstp://www.matronics.com/contribution" =======



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