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Arksey(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: fuel system debate |
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I get a kick out of this fuel system debate...wish some of you engineers would draw up the correct system so people would know what to do...cannot resist adding my 2 cents worth...Our kolbs do not lend themselves to gravity system from a pratical standpoint....so why not just come out of the bottom of our tanks, go to a electric fuel pump, then to a gascolator, then to a inline fuel filter if you want and then to the pulse pump and from there to the carbs...use good stuff for the fuel lines , you end up with a dual system. will run with elec pump shut off on the pulse pump and use the elec pump on take off and landing.....you end up with a pressure system with elec pump on and can fill the carbs....gives you a back up if pulse pump fails...if you use a primer I would suggest thinking about putting that line into the fuel tank separate from the fuel line to get fuel for the primer....small battery will run a elec fuel pump and recharge from engine charging system..piece of cake and works good....for those that fly true ultra light where weight is the problem you will have to go with a good set up using the pulse pump....but if it was me i would get my pilot license n number the plane and go with the system mentioned above for better safety of my body. I now feel better....jswan
looks to me like fuel system's cause a lot of the forced landings...
do not archive
jswan firestar ll 503 Michigan
[quote][b]
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: Re: fuel system debate |
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| Arksey(at)aol.com wrote: | I get a kick out of this fuel system debate...wish some of you engineers would draw up the correct system so people would know what to do...cannot resist adding my 2 cents worth...Our kolbs do not lend themselves to gravity system from a pratical standpoint....so why not just come out of the bottom of our tanks, go to a electric fuel pump, then to a gascolator, then to a inline fuel filter if you want and then to the pulse pump and from there to the carbs...use good stuff for the fuel lines , you end up with a dual system. will run with elec pump shut off on the pulse pump and use the elec pump on take off and landing.....you end up with a pressure system with elec pump on and can fill the carbs....gives you a back up if pulse pump fails...if you use a primer I would suggest thinking about putting that line into the fuel tank separate from the fuel line to get fuel for the primer....small battery will run a elec fuel pump and recharge from engine charging system..piece of cake and works good....for those that fly true ultra light where weight is the problem you will have to go with a good set up using the pulse pump....but if it was me i would get my pilot license n number the plane and go with the system mentioned above for better safety of my body. I now feel better....jswan
looks to me like fuel system's cause a lot of the forced landings...
do not archive
jswan firestar ll 503 Michigan
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JSwan,
What you describe above is a very reliable, well thought out, and still simple fuel system.
Electric pump to push fuel up to the engines pulse pump - All pressure fed, Never draw fuel for any distance with a vacuum.
Gascolator
Quality Fuel Line
Quality Filter
A high quality, simple, and well engineered fuel system can easily be done on even the smallest ultralights that use a Rotax 447 ( Firefly )... Something as simple as a well designed fuel system would eliminate a large percentage of Kolb engine failures. In ultralights we cant always have the same safety standards as full scale aircraft, its not always practical for an ultralight... But the fuel system is one area that can be designed to aviation standards and still be small, simple, light and still practical for an ultralight. I don't subscribe to the attitude that some people do, that just because they am flying an ultralight, that they will use cheap and substandard parts, and poor engineering practices. I build and maintain my planes, even the small 2 cycle planes, as close to accepted aviation standards as possible, and to be as safe and as reliable as is possible as technology allows in an ultralight.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject: fuel system debate |
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At 03:17 PM 10/29/2009, JetPilot wrote:
| Quote: | ...Something as simple as a well designed fuel system would eliminate a
large percentage of Kolb engine failures...
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A well MAINTAINED fuel system would eliminate even more...
-Dana
--
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear
arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in
government. - Thomas Jefferson
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: fuel system debate |
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Jim, It's the beauty of experimental aviation that a builder has the right to design his system as he sees the requirements. I'd love to have a nice light weight aluminum tank with bungs for bottom draw and water drains, but for now I have plastic tanks with TNK supplied top draw fittings. I've had a broken off flapper valve in a primer bulb put me on the ground and found a split bushing on a bottom tap so I learned from those failures. Realizing the danger of no longer having a balance line between tanks I put in a selector valve so I can draw off left or right tank, or both. I can also shut off the fuel draw completely should that need arise. I put in a Facet low pressure pump as a boost pump, but I have a Mikuni pulse pump, too. I know from testing I can shut off the boost pump and the 582 hums right along on the pulse pump alone. The only problem I've had was caused by plastic debris from a gas can mod that jammed the selector valve. Now I have pick up filters to keep that from happening again. The experiment continues and I'll adapt the system as I see fit. The choices I've made have been driven by the experience of myself and others. All these absolutes about must haves and must bes are just so much belligerent chest beating.
Bottom line is, and this isn't directed at you personally Jim, if YOU want the best system for YOUR airplane sit down with pencil and paper and start with YOUR ideas and build the system YOU want. Make YOUR best decisions, take pride in and do YOUR best workmanship, test YOUR system and then, I hope, put up pictures and descriptions on this forum so we can share in YOUR creativity.
I continue to learn a lot here from all the builders who graciously share with everyone. I've never learned a damn thing from the bile spewing of a guy who never shares anything but his bad manners.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:54 AM, <Arksey(at)aol.com (Arksey(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] I get a kick out of this fuel system debate...wish some of you engineers would draw up the correct system so people would know what to do...cannot resist adding my 2 cents worth...Our kolbs do not lend themselves to gravity system from a pratical standpoint....so why not just come out of the bottom of our tanks, go to a electric fuel pump, then to a gascolator, then to a inline fuel filter if you want and then to the pulse pump and from there to the carbs...use good stuff for the fuel lines , you end up with a dual system. will run with elec pump shut off on the pulse pump and use the elec pump on take off and landing.....you end up with a pressure system with elec pump on and can fill the carbs....gives you a back up if pulse pump fails...if you use a primer I would suggest thinking about putting that line into the fuel tank separate from the fuel line to get fuel for the primer....small battery will run a elec fuel pump and recharge from engine charging system..piece of cake and works good....for those that fly true ultra light where weight is the problem you will have to go with a good set up using the pulse pump....but if it was me i would get my pilot license n number the plane and go with the system mentioned above for better safety of my body. I now feel better....jswan
looks to me like fuel system's cause a lot of the forced landings..
do not archive
jswan firestar ll 503 Michigan
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Arksey(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: fuel system debate |
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In a message dated 10/29/2009 8:13:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | Jim, It's the beauty of experimental aviation that a builder has the right to design his system as he sees the requirements. I'd love to have a nice light weight aluminum tank with bungs for bottom draw and water drains, but for now I have plastic tanks with TNK supplied top draw fittings. I've had a broken off flapper valve in a primer bulb put me on the ground and found a split bushing on a bottom tap so I learned from those failures. Realizing the danger of no longer having a balance line between tanks I put in a selector valve so I can draw off left or right tank, or both. I can also shut off the fuel draw completely should that need arise. I put in a Facet low pressure pump as a boost pump, but I have a Mikuni pulse pump, too. I know from testing I can shut off the boost pump and the 582 hums right along on the pulse pump alone. The only problem I've had was caused by plastic debris from a gas can mod that jammed the selector valve. Now I have pick up filters to keep that from happening again. The experiment continues and I'll adapt the system as I see fit. The choices I've made have been driven by the experience of myself and others. All these absolutes about must haves and must bes are just so much belligerent chest beating.
Bottom line is, and this isn't directed at you personally Jim, if YOU want the best system for YOUR airplane sit down with pencil and paper and start with YOUR ideas and build the system YOU want. Make YOUR best decisions, take pride in and do YOUR best workmanship, test YOUR system and then, I hope, put up pictures and descriptions on this forum so we can share in YOUR creativity.
I continue to learn a lot here from all the builders who graciously share with everyone. I've never learned a damn thing from the bile spewing of a guy who never shares anything but his bad manners.
Rick Girard
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Hi Rick,
I take no offense from your post...I agree with your dual system....I like the idea of people posting pictures and drawings of their system's so it can help people make good decisions.......my firestar had plastic tanks when we got it and fuel oulets out of the bottom....so we just left it that way. I put in a elec pump which is below the tanks....if the elec pump will pull gas using top tank fuel lines i see no problem with it.I know a lot of people do not like the idea of those rubber groumets in the bottom of the plastic tanks but i have had no problem with them so far....they did leak a bit when we flew the plane back to Michigan from Oklahoma but i replaced them and they have given no problem since. The mikunni pulse pump is drawing gas almost to its maximum distance specs in most all of our kolbs where the two plastic fuel tanks are used and located, and yes things must be maintained.. I do not want to beat this fuel system thing to death but feel it is important, do not like to have people get hurt. I know some of you guys fly over terrain that I would feel uncomfortable in a twin...jswan
do not archive
jswan firestar ll 503 Michigan
[quote][b]
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: Re: fuel system debate |
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| rickofudall wrote: |
Bottom line is, and this isn't directed at you personally Jim, if YOU want the best system for YOUR airplane sit down with pencil and paper and start with YOUR ideas and build the system YOU want. Make YOUR best decisions, take pride in and do YOUR best workmanship, test YOUR system and then, I hope, put up pictures and descriptions on this forum so we can share in YOUR creativity.
I continue to �learn a lot here from all the builders who graciously share with everyone. I've never learned a damn thing from the bile spewing of a guy who never shares anything but his bad manners.
Rick Girard
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This is among the WORST aviation advice I have ever heard. It is nothing short of ridiculous to say YOU will have the best fuel system if YOU sit down and design it. That is emotional, feel good, but very dangerous advice that will get people hurt in airplanes. Jim may or my not capable of designing a safe fuel system, many people here most definitely do not have the knowledge to design a reliable fuel system . Just because YOU design it does not make it good or even safe. The correct and best advice here would be for Jim to build his fuel system to accepted aviation safety and engineering standards, not to sit down with a pencil...
“Accuracy means something to me. It's vital to my sense of values. I've learned not to trust people who are inaccurate. Every aviator knows that if mechanics are inaccurate, aircraft crash. If pilots are inaccurate, they get lost—sometimes killed. In my profession, life itself depends on accuracy.”
— Charles A. Lindbergh
Its clear that Rick Girard is all about " Feel Good posts " and personal politics rather than giving good aviation advice. I give some of the best, most technically accurate posts on this list, and Rick constantly tells others to ignore good information I post, mislead people, and would even put them in danger in desperate attempt to discredit my posts as he did above. Only a total insecure loser needs to act this way.
Mike
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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: fuel system debate |
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| rickofudall wrote: |
I've never learned a damn thing from the bile spewing of a guy who never shares anything but his bad manners.
Rick Girard
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This was posted before my post, yet did anyone say a word about Rick Girard starting this shit again ? Or did they totally ignore a totally uncalled for post by Rick, and then took the first opportunity complain about my post ?
Double Standards, Hypocritical Behavior, and the rules only apply when you like them to. No wonder the Kolb list is all but dead except for a few of the same old objectionable people...
Everyone is afraid to post on this list. I think it is time that a new friendly Kolb forum be started, where EVERYONE is subject to the same rules and standards of posting.
Mike
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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|
_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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