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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject: Amsafe seat belts |
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IIRC I sent a set of belts to a 10 builder in AU . You might check the builders there; i know that one of the early sets went to Vans for inclusion in a finish kit to AU. Perhaps that builder can respond to you.
From: John Dunne [mailto:acs(at)acspropeller.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 4:50 PM
To: 'David McNeill'
Subject: RE: Amsafe seat belts
Thanks David, I don’t want to cost you a huge international phone bill so I’ll peruse the info you’ve sent me and contact you if I’m going to proceed down this track.
I had similar belts in my 182 and primarily like the freedom the inertia reels give you but also the added safety factor is attractive.
Thanks again for the info.
Cheers,
John
[b] [/b][b]ACS[/b] Propeller
John Dunne
Managing Director
www.acspropeller.com.au
Aviation Component Services (Qld) Pty Ltd.
trading as "ACS Propeller"
Building 612 Lores Bonney Drive,
Archerfield Airport Queensland Australia.
PH:61 7 3274 4500 FAX:61 7 3274 4010
"Everything Propeller"
From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007(at)cox.net]
Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 9:03 AM
To: acs(at)acspropeller.com.au
Subject: RE: Amsafe seat belts
Send me a pone number to discuss. I searched my files and found PDFS of the engineering drawings but it will take more research to find it all. we can talk about the process to install. You can get a better feel as to whether you want to do this.
From: John Dunne [mailto:acs(at)acspropeller.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 3:30 PM
To: dlm46007(at)cox.net
Subject: Amsafe seat belts
Hi David,
I’d be interested in any literature you might have or details on the inertia reel belts for the RV-10.
If you could shoot me some info I’d appreciate it.
Best regards,
John
Builder 40315
[quote][b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
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www.inertialbelts.com is on line again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final finish. I will enclose one of his here.
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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
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I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for the belts
On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
| Quote: | www.inertialbelts.com is on line again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final finish. I will enclose one of his here.
<P0002841.gif> |
[quote][b]
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
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I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are just not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned that additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I feel a lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of S glass over the hardpoints.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AMSAFE seat belts
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for the belts
On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
www.inertialbelts.com is on line again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final finish. I will enclose one of his here.
<P0002841.gif>
| Quote: | | [b]www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.com |
012345678901234567
[quote][b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:59 pm Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
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Below is my reply to Jeff. I do believe that if you use the standard hardpoints and regular belts that you should at least use a CS stainless washer under the screw. This will spread the load on the glass and make a pull though more difficult.
don't know for sure but the total weight of four AMSAFE belts IIRC is less than 10 pounds. Incrementally I would say an additional 2-4 pounds over the standard belts. You add 4 3'x3'x1/2'' aluminum blocks and four rollers Check with Rene as he probably weighed the alternatives.
The existing hardpoints were deemed inadequate (for the AMSAFE application) by both AMSAFE and consultant (PhD, ME Caltech) who lives nearby. The vans hardpoints are setup for a single #5 counter sunk screw. This is installed without CS washer that would be required to spread the load. My ME consultant friend tells me that the normal use of the regular belts will cause micro fractures and may fail (pull through) if and when a crash occurs. AMSAFE commented that they would sell me the belts if I "beefed up" the existing hardpoints. Since the roller have screws for attaching the brackets I needed a means to attach the bracket Since I did not want 16 protruding though the lid I used the aluminum blocks (2024T3 or 7075) . These were tapped for 4 external screws to hold the pad that holds the roller. Each external screw has a .75" CS stainless washer and thereby spreading the load on the lid. In addition since the shoulder straps are on inertial reels there is no constant shear load on the single screw in the lid. The hardpoints areas were strengthened by additional E-glass and S-glass tapes. The calculations of the ME ,while informal, indicated that relative strengths could compared by comparing the surface areas of the fasteners. Hope this helps.
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AMSAFE seat belts
I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are just not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned that additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I feel a lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of S glass over the hardpoints.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AMSAFE seat belts
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for the belts
On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
www.inertialbelts.com is on line again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final finish. I will enclose one of his here.
<P0002841.gif>
| Quote: | | [b]www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.com |
012345678901234567
8[/b] [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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rene(at)felker.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
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|
Sorry guys, I did not weight the belts. But……my CG is pretty far aft and if I was building another RV-10 I would reconsider a couple of things in order to move the CG forward. But I WOULD NOT give up the belts. Examples:
ELT
O2 System (Currently behind the bulkhead)
Battery(1 925 in tray)
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:30 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AMSAFE seat belts
Below is my reply to Jeff. I do believe that if you use the standard hardpoints and regular belts that you should at least use a CS stainless washer under the screw. This will spread the load on the glass and make a pull though more difficult.
don't know for sure but the total weight of four AMSAFE belts IIRC is less than 10 pounds. Incrementally I would say an additional 2-4 pounds over the standard belts. You add 4 3'x3'x1/2'' aluminum blocks and four rollers Check with Rene as he probably weighed the alternatives.
The existing hardpoints were deemed inadequate (for the AMSAFE application) by both AMSAFE and consultant (PhD, ME Caltech) who lives nearby. The vans hardpoints are setup for a single #5 counter sunk screw. This is installed without CS washer that would be required to spread the load. My ME consultant friend tells me that the normal use of the regular belts will cause micro fractures and may fail (pull through) if and when a crash occurs. AMSAFE commented that they would sell me the belts if I "beefed up" the existing hardpoints. Since the roller have screws for attaching the brackets I needed a means to attach the bracket Since I did not want 16 protruding though the lid I used the aluminum blocks (2024T3 or 7075) . These were tapped for 4 external screws to hold the pad that holds the roller. Each external screw has a .75" CS stainless washer and thereby spreading the load on the lid. In addition since the shoulder straps are on inertial reels there is no constant shear load on the single screw in the lid. The hardpoints areas were strengthened by additional E-glass and S-glass tapes. The calculations of the ME ,while informal, indicated that relative strengths could compared by comparing the surface areas of the fasteners. Hope this helps.
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AMSAFE seat belts
I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are just not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned that additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I feel a lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of S glass over the hardpoints.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AMSAFE seat belts
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for the belts
On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
www.inertialbelts.com is on line again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final finish. I will enclose one of his here.
<P0002841.gif>
| Quote: | | www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com |
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[quote][b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
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One thing that will help the CG is a 680 on the firewall on the lower right side and tied to a toggle breaker on the essential bus. You will get automatic trickle charge and additional backup or avionics, but you will need some isolation from the extra battery to avoid including it in the start. I put an automotive fuse on the positive lead at the battery terminal just in case the positive lead might come loose and flail around and ground. don't want to weld anything in flight.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene Felker
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 7:27 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AMSAFE seat belts
Sorry guys, I did not weight the belts. But……my CG is pretty far aft and if I was building another RV-10 I would reconsider a couple of things in order to move the CG forward. But I WOULD NOT give up the belts. Examples:
ELT
O2 System (Currently behind the bulkhead)
Battery(1 925 in tray)
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:30 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AMSAFE seat belts
Below is my reply to Jeff. I do believe that if you use the standard hardpoints and regular belts that you should at least use a CS stainless washer under the screw. This will spread the load on the glass and make a pull though more difficult.
don't know for sure but the total weight of four AMSAFE belts IIRC is less than 10 pounds. Incrementally I would say an additional 2-4 pounds over the standard belts. You add 4 3'x3'x1/2'' aluminum blocks and four rollers Check with Rene as he probably weighed the alternatives.
The existing hardpoints were deemed inadequate (for the AMSAFE application) by both AMSAFE and consultant (PhD, ME Caltech) who lives nearby. The vans hardpoints are setup for a single #5 counter sunk screw. This is installed without CS washer that would be required to spread the load. My ME consultant friend tells me that the normal use of the regular belts will cause micro fractures and may fail (pull through) if and when a crash occurs. AMSAFE commented that they would sell me the belts if I "beefed up" the existing hardpoints. Since the roller have screws for attaching the brackets I needed a means to attach the bracket Since I did not want 16 protruding though the lid I used the aluminum blocks (2024T3 or 7075) . These were tapped for 4 external screws to hold the pad that holds the roller. Each external screw has a .75" CS stainless washer and thereby spreading the load on the lid. In addition since the shoulder straps are on inertial reels there is no constant shear load on the single screw in the lid. The hardpoints areas were strengthened by additional E-glass and S-glass tapes. The calculations of the ME ,while informal, indicated that relative strengths could compared by comparing the surface areas of the fasteners. Hope this helps.
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: AMSAFE seat belts
I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are just not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned that additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I feel a lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of S glass over the hardpoints.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AMSAFE seat belts
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for the belts
On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
www.inertialbelts.com is on line again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final finish. I will enclose one of his here.
<P0002841.gif>
| Quote: | | www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
|
|
Kinda helps blow away that myth that the CG in the -10 is too far
forward and it's "nose heavy", doesn't it. 
My opinion personally is that the RV-10's nose-heavyness should
not be something people should intentionally try to change,
because in the end they're likely going to find that they
WISHED they had the CG more forward. It used to be that
some people thought they wanted everything up front to be
lighter (i.e. props, and all the accessories) to help "fix"
the nose-heaviness. I think that in reality, the more you
take off the nose, the more CG worry you're going to
end up with, so best to just build the plane not considering
the plane to have any "nose heaviness" to "fix".
If you build it in a normal way, you will naturally be less
nose heavy than the Van's prototypes...because you'll already
have more interior features.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
Rene Felker wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry guys, I did not weight the belts. But……my CG is pretty far aft
and if I was building another RV-10 I would reconsider a couple of
things in order to move the CG forward. But I WOULD NOT give up the
belts. Examples:
ELT
O2 System (Currently behind the bulkhead)
Battery(1 925 in tray)
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David McNeill
*Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:30 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
Below is my reply to Jeff. I do believe that if you use the standard
hardpoints and regular belts that you should at least use a CS stainless
washer under the screw. This will spread the load on the glass and make
a pull though more difficult.
don't know for sure but the total weight of four AMSAFE belts IIRC is
less than 10 pounds. Incrementally I would say an additional 2-4 pounds
over the standard belts. You add 4 3'x3'x1/2'' aluminum blocks and four
rollers Check with Rene as he probably weighed the alternatives.
The existing hardpoints were deemed inadequate (for the AMSAFE
application) by both AMSAFE and consultant (PhD, ME Caltech) who lives
nearby. The vans hardpoints are setup for a single #5 counter sunk
screw. This is installed without CS washer that would be required to
spread the load. My ME consultant friend tells me that the normal use of
the regular belts will cause micro fractures and may fail (pull through)
if and when a crash occurs. AMSAFE commented that they would sell me the
belts if I "beefed up" the existing hardpoints. Since the roller have
screws for attaching the brackets I needed a means to attach the
bracket Since I did not want 16 protruding though the lid I used the
aluminum blocks (2024T3 or 7075) . These were tapped for 4 external
screws to hold the pad that holds the roller. Each external screw has a
.75" CS stainless washer and thereby spreading the load on the lid. In
addition since the shoulder straps are on inertial reels there is no
constant shear load on the single screw in the lid. The hardpoints areas
were strengthened by additional E-glass and S-glass tapes. The
calculations of the ME ,while informal, indicated that relative
strengths could compared by comparing the surface areas of the
fasteners. Hope this helps.
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to
the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more
elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a
reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans
hard points aren't enough for either approach
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
*Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:01 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are just
not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned that
additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I feel a
lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of S glass over
the hardpoints.
Michael
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Carpenter
*Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: AMSAFE seat belts
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed to
the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more
elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a
reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the Vans
hard points aren't enough for either approach?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for the belts
On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
www.inertialbelts.com <http://www.inertialbelts.com> is on line again.
The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not installed in my
10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final finish. I will
enclose one of his here.
<P0002841.gif>
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gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
|
|
FWIW, a forward CG is safer than an AFT CG.....
Grumpy
N184JM
On Nov 6, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
Kinda helps blow away that myth that the CG in the -10 is too far
forward and it's "nose heavy", doesn't it.
My opinion personally is that the RV-10's nose-heavyness should
not be something people should intentionally try to change,
because in the end they're likely going to find that they
WISHED they had the CG more forward. It used to be that
some people thought they wanted everything up front to be
lighter (i.e. props, and all the accessories) to help "fix"
the nose-heaviness. I think that in reality, the more you
take off the nose, the more CG worry you're going to
end up with, so best to just build the plane not considering
the plane to have any "nose heaviness" to "fix".
If you build it in a normal way, you will naturally be less
nose heavy than the Van's prototypes...because you'll already
have more interior features.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
Rene Felker wrote:
> Sorry guys, I did not weight the belts. But……my CG is pretty far
> aft and if I was building another RV-10 I would reconsider a couple
> of things in order to move the CG forward. But I WOULD NOT give up
> the belts. Examples:
> ELT
> O2 System (Currently behind the bulkhead)
> Battery(1 925 in tray)
> Rene' Felker
> RV-10 N423CF Flying
> 801-721-6080
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *David McNeill
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:30 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
> Below is my reply to Jeff. I do believe that if you use the
> standard hardpoints and regular belts that you should at least use
> a CS stainless washer under the screw. This will spread the load on
> the glass and make a pull though more difficult.
> don't know for sure but the total weight of four AMSAFE belts
> IIRC is less than 10 pounds. Incrementally I would say an
> additional 2-4 pounds over the standard belts. You add 4
> 3'x3'x1/2'' aluminum blocks and four rollers Check with Rene as he
> probably weighed the alternatives.
> The existing hardpoints were deemed inadequate (for the AMSAFE
> application) by both AMSAFE and consultant (PhD, ME Caltech) who
> lives nearby. The vans hardpoints are setup for a single #5 counter
> sunk screw. This is installed without CS washer that would be
> required to spread the load. My ME consultant friend tells me that
> the normal use of the regular belts will cause micro fractures and
> may fail (pull through) if and when a crash occurs. AMSAFE
> commented that they would sell me the belts if I "beefed up" the
> existing hardpoints. Since the roller have screws for attaching the
> brackets I needed a means to attach the bracket Since I did not
> want 16 protruding though the lid I used the aluminum blocks
> (2024T3 or 7075) . These were tapped for 4 external screws to hold
> the pad that holds the roller. Each external screw has a .75" CS
> stainless washer and thereby spreading the load on the lid. In
> addition since the shoulder straps are on inertial reels there is
> no constant shear load on the single screw in the lid. The
> hardpoints areas were strengthened by additional E-glass and S-
> glass tapes. The calculations of the ME ,while informal, indicated
> that relative strengths could compared by comparing the surface
> areas of the fasteners. Hope this helps. I've got a couple of
> questions David:
> How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as
> opposed to the standard?
> The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more
> elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a
> reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the
> Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:01 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
> I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are
> just not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned
> that additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I
> feel a lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of
> S glass over the hardpoints.
> Michael
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Carpenter
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AMSAFE seat belts
> I've got a couple of questions David:
> How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as
> opposed to the standard?
> The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more
> elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a
> reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the
> Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for
> the belts
> On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
> www.inertialbelts.com <http://www.inertialbelts.com> is on line
> again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not
> installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the
> final finish. I will enclose one of his here.
> <P0002841.gif>
> * *
> * *
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> *www.buildersbooks.com*
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
|
|
Exactly!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Miller John wrote:
| Quote: |
FWIW, a forward CG is safer than an AFT CG.....
Grumpy
N184JM
On Nov 6, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> Kinda helps blow away that myth that the CG in the -10 is too far
> forward and it's "nose heavy", doesn't it.
>
> My opinion personally is that the RV-10's nose-heavyness should
> not be something people should intentionally try to change,
> because in the end they're likely going to find that they
> WISHED they had the CG more forward. It used to be that
> some people thought they wanted everything up front to be
> lighter (i.e. props, and all the accessories) to help "fix"
> the nose-heaviness. I think that in reality, the more you
> take off the nose, the more CG worry you're going to
> end up with, so best to just build the plane not considering
> the plane to have any "nose heaviness" to "fix".
> If you build it in a normal way, you will naturally be less
> nose heavy than the Van's prototypes...because you'll already
> have more interior features.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>
> Rene Felker wrote:
>> Sorry guys, I did not weight the belts. But……my CG is pretty far aft
>> and if I was building another RV-10 I would reconsider a couple of
>> things in order to move the CG forward. But I WOULD NOT give up the
>> belts. Examples:
>> ELT
>> O2 System (Currently behind the bulkhead)
>> Battery(1 925 in tray)
>> Rene' Felker
>> RV-10 N423CF Flying
>> 801-721-6080
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David
>> McNeill
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:30 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
>> Below is my reply to Jeff. I do believe that if you use the standard
>> hardpoints and regular belts that you should at least use a CS
>> stainless washer under the screw. This will spread the load on the
>> glass and make a pull though more difficult.
>> don't know for sure but the total weight of four AMSAFE belts IIRC
>> is less than 10 pounds. Incrementally I would say an additional 2-4
>> pounds over the standard belts. You add 4 3'x3'x1/2'' aluminum blocks
>> and four rollers Check with Rene as he probably weighed the
>> alternatives.
>> The existing hardpoints were deemed inadequate (for the AMSAFE
>> application) by both AMSAFE and consultant (PhD, ME Caltech) who
>> lives nearby. The vans hardpoints are setup for a single #5 counter
>> sunk screw. This is installed without CS washer that would be
>> required to spread the load. My ME consultant friend tells me that
>> the normal use of the regular belts will cause micro fractures and
>> may fail (pull through) if and when a crash occurs. AMSAFE commented
>> that they would sell me the belts if I "beefed up" the existing
>> hardpoints. Since the roller have screws for attaching the brackets I
>> needed a means to attach the bracket Since I did not want 16
>> protruding though the lid I used the aluminum blocks (2024T3 or 7075)
>> . These were tapped for 4 external screws to hold the pad that holds
>> the roller. Each external screw has a .75" CS stainless washer and
>> thereby spreading the load on the lid. In addition since the shoulder
>> straps are on inertial reels there is no constant shear load on the
>> single screw in the lid. The hardpoints areas were strengthened by
>> additional E-glass and S-glass tapes. The calculations of the ME
>> ,while informal, indicated that relative strengths could compared by
>> comparing the surface areas of the fasteners. Hope this helps. I've
>> got a couple of questions David:
>> How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed
>> to the standard?
>> The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more
>> elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a
>> reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the
>> Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV
>> Builder (Michael Sausen)
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:01 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
>> I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are just
>> not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned that
>> additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I feel a
>> lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of S glass
>> over the hardpoints.
>> Michael
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff
>> Carpenter
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AMSAFE seat belts
>> I've got a couple of questions David:
>> How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed
>> to the standard?
>> The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more
>> elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a
>> reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the
>> Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
>> Jeff Carpenter
>> 40304
>> Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for
>> the belts
>> On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
>> www.inertialbelts.com <http://www.inertialbelts.com> is on line
>> again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not
>> installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final
>> finish. I will enclose one of his here.
>> <P0002841.gif>
>> * *
>> * *
>> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>> * *
>> * *
>> * *
>> *href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com*
>> *href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com*
>> *href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com*
>> *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>>
>> *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com*
>> * *
>> * *
>> * *
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>> *www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com>*
>> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>> **
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>> **
>> * *
>> *
>> *
>
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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
|
|
Agreed, if you are going to nudge the edges of the envelope. Heavier on
the controls versus lighter, less efficient versus more efficient, etc.
I like to think, "in the envelope is good, out of the envelope grounds
the aircraft". Understanding where you are in the acceptable range
allow you to adjust your technique, e.g. carrying trim or power in the
flare.
Bill "who knows nothing about the '10..... yet" Watson
Miller John wrote:
| Quote: |
FWIW, a forward CG is safer than an AFT CG.....
Grumpy
N184JM
On Nov 6, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> Kinda helps blow away that myth that the CG in the -10 is too far
> forward and it's "nose heavy", doesn't it.
>
> My opinion personally is that the RV-10's nose-heavyness should
> not be something people should intentionally try to change,
> because in the end they're likely going to find that they
> WISHED they had the CG more forward. It used to be that
> some people thought they wanted everything up front to be
> lighter (i.e. props, and all the accessories) to help "fix"
> the nose-heaviness. I think that in reality, the more you
> take off the nose, the more CG worry you're going to
> end up with, so best to just build the plane not considering
> the plane to have any "nose heaviness" to "fix".
> If you build it in a normal way, you will naturally be less
> nose heavy than the Van's prototypes...because you'll already
> have more interior features.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>
> Rene Felker wrote:
>> Sorry guys, I did not weight the belts. But……my CG is pretty far
>> aft and if I was building another RV-10 I would reconsider a couple
>> of things in order to move the CG forward. But I WOULD NOT give up
>> the belts. Examples:
>> ELT
>> O2 System (Currently behind the bulkhead)
>> Battery(1 925 in tray)
>> Rene' Felker
>> RV-10 N423CF Flying
>> 801-721-6080
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David
>> McNeill
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:30 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
>> Below is my reply to Jeff. I do believe that if you use the standard
>> hardpoints and regular belts that you should at least use a CS
>> stainless washer under the screw. This will spread the load on the
>> glass and make a pull though more difficult.
>> don't know for sure but the total weight of four AMSAFE belts
>> IIRC is less than 10 pounds. Incrementally I would say an additional
>> 2-4 pounds over the standard belts. You add 4 3'x3'x1/2'' aluminum
>> blocks and four rollers Check with Rene as he probably weighed the
>> alternatives.
>> The existing hardpoints were deemed inadequate (for the AMSAFE
>> application) by both AMSAFE and consultant (PhD, ME Caltech) who
>> lives nearby. The vans hardpoints are setup for a single #5 counter
>> sunk screw. This is installed without CS washer that would be
>> required to spread the load. My ME consultant friend tells me that
>> the normal use of the regular belts will cause micro fractures and
>> may fail (pull through) if and when a crash occurs. AMSAFE commented
>> that they would sell me the belts if I "beefed up" the existing
>> hardpoints. Since the roller have screws for attaching the brackets
>> I needed a means to attach the bracket Since I did not want 16
>> protruding though the lid I used the aluminum blocks (2024T3 or
>> 7075) . These were tapped for 4 external screws to hold the pad that
>> holds the roller. Each external screw has a .75" CS stainless washer
>> and thereby spreading the load on the lid. In addition since the
>> shoulder straps are on inertial reels there is no constant shear
>> load on the single screw in the lid. The hardpoints areas were
>> strengthened by additional E-glass and S-glass tapes. The
>> calculations of the ME ,while informal, indicated that relative
>> strengths could compared by comparing the surface areas of the
>> fasteners. Hope this helps. I've got a couple of questions David:
>> How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed
>> to the standard?
>> The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more
>> elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a
>> reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the
>> Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV
>> Builder (Michael Sausen)
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:01 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
>> I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are just
>> not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned that
>> additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I feel
>> a lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of S
>> glass over the hardpoints.
>> Michael
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff
>> Carpenter
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AMSAFE seat belts
>> I've got a couple of questions David:
>> How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as opposed
>> to the standard?
>> The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much more
>> elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is there a
>> reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you feel the
>> Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
>> Jeff Carpenter
>> 40304
>> Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for
>> the belts
>> On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
>> www.inertialbelts.com <http://www.inertialbelts.com> is on line
>> again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not
>> installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the final
>> finish. I will enclose one of his here.
>> <P0002841.gif>
>> * *
>> * *
>> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>> * *
>> * *
>> * *
>> *href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com*
>> *href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com*
>> *href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com*
>> *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>>
>> *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com*
>> * *
>> * *
>> * *
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>> *www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com>*
>> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>> **
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>> **
>> * *
>> *
>> *
>
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dmaib(at)mac.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: AMSAFE seat belts |
|
|
Agreed. I do think the "stock" RV-10 is a bit nose heavy. I ended up
with a CG a bit further aft than optimum because I put in the
Flightline AC air conditioning system and installed an MT propeller.
I think that having the extra weight of the Hartzell up front would
probably help a bit. As it is, I can put four normal size adults in
the airplane but will have to restrict my luggage to around 35 lbs.
About 98% or our flying is just Mary and I, so doesn't really slow us
down, but I am pretty careful about it.
David Maib
40559
Flying
On Nov 6, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
Kinda helps blow away that myth that the CG in the -10 is too far
forward and it's "nose heavy", doesn't it.
My opinion personally is that the RV-10's nose-heavyness should
not be something people should intentionally try to change,
because in the end they're likely going to find that they
WISHED they had the CG more forward. It used to be that
some people thought they wanted everything up front to be
lighter (i.e. props, and all the accessories) to help "fix"
the nose-heaviness. I think that in reality, the more you
take off the nose, the more CG worry you're going to
end up with, so best to just build the plane not considering
the plane to have any "nose heaviness" to "fix".
If you build it in a normal way, you will naturally be less
nose heavy than the Van's prototypes...because you'll already
have more interior features.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
Rene Felker wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry guys, I did not weight the belts. But……my CG is pretty far
aft and if I was building another RV-10 I would reconsider a couple
of things in order to move the CG forward. But I WOULD NOT give up
the belts. Examples:
ELT
O2 System (Currently behind the bulkhead)
Battery(1 925 in tray)
Rene' Felker
RV-10 N423CF Flying
801-721-6080
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-
list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David McNeill
*Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:30 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
Below is my reply to Jeff. I do believe that if you use the
standard hardpoints and regular belts that you should at least use
a CS stainless washer under the screw. This will spread the load on
the glass and make a pull though more difficult.
don't know for sure but the total weight of four AMSAFE belts
IIRC is less than 10 pounds. Incrementally I would say an
additional 2-4 pounds over the standard belts. You add 4
3'x3'x1/2'' aluminum blocks and four rollers Check with Rene as he
probably weighed the alternatives.
The existing hardpoints were deemed inadequate (for the AMSAFE
application) by both AMSAFE and consultant (PhD, ME Caltech) who
lives nearby. The vans hardpoints are setup for a single #5 counter
sunk screw. This is installed without CS washer that would be
required to spread the load. My ME consultant friend tells me that
the normal use of the regular belts will cause micro fractures and
may fail (pull through) if and when a crash occurs. AMSAFE
commented that they would sell me the belts if I "beefed up" the
existing hardpoints. Since the roller have screws for attaching the
brackets I needed a means to attach the bracket Since I did not
want 16 protruding though the lid I used the aluminum blocks
(2024T3 or 7075) . These were tapped for 4 external screws to hold
the pad that holds the roller. Each external screw has a .75" CS
stainless washer and thereby spreading the load on the lid. In
addition since the shoulder straps are on inertial reels there is
no constant shear load on the single screw in the lid. The
hardpoints areas were strengthened by additional E-glass and S-
glass tapes. The calculations of the ME ,while informal, indicated
that relative strengths could compared by comparing the surface
areas of the fasteners. Hope this helps. I've got a couple of
questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as
opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much
more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is
there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you
feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-
list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
*Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:01 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: AMSAFE seat belts
I think the overall concern is that the factory hardpoints are
just not enough. I believe, as David said, AMSafe was concerned
that additional reinforcement would up the safety margin. I know I
feel a lot better after putting a couple of intersecting layers of
S glass over the hardpoints.
Michael
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-
list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Carpenter
*Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: AMSAFE seat belts
I've got a couple of questions David:
How much weight are we adding with the inertia reel belts as
opposed to the standard?
The hard points you show in you installation pictures are much
more elaborate than what Vans provides for the stock belts. Is
there a reason the inertia belts require more support, or do you
feel the Vans hard points aren't enough for either approach?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Finishing the inside of the cabin top... and making provisions for
the belts
On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:46 AM, David McNeill wrote:
www.inertialbelts.com <http://www.inertialbelts.com> is on line
again. The belts are shown in my Glastar as the belts were not
installed in my 10 at that time. Rene has good pictures of the
final finish. I will enclose one of his here.
<P0002841.gif>
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