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starter replacement

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carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: starter replacement

Anybody ever replaced their starter through the housing on the firewall?  You know.  The aluminum box that comes through the firewall from the engine compartment and contains the starter. Mine appears to have gone out on my Model 2, 582 and I don't relish removing the engine just to get at the starter.



I also don't relish paying retail price for a new starter (~$800).  Any suggestions there?



Thanks,

Chris



Sioux Falls, SD

Model 2, 582

cschmokel

Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 23
Location: Pullman, WA

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: starter replacement

Chris,



Yeah, $800 is outrageous for a starter!  This is what I bought (and have yet to install):



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/skytecRX12.php

http://www.skytecair.com/Rotax.htm



10% more torque than the HD starter with a 10% reduced current draw, all at the same weight as stock .. and for $260 .. looks like a winner to me!  Now this is for a 912/914 so I'm not sure if it'll fit your 582 but who knows?  As far as installing it, I'm not sure - my sprag clutch broke so I've got to tear the engine out anyway

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:57 am Post subject: starter replacement

Chris, save yourself some grief and just pull the engine.  You can have it 

out on the bench in less than an hour where it will be convenient to work 

on.  Also, during that removal time it may be come evident what the problem 

is.  Also, those starters can be repaired.

Now, why do you think your starter is bad?

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)



---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:02 am Post subject: Re: starter replacement

 	  carlisle wrote: 	
		  Anybody ever replaced their starter through the housing on the firewall?  You know.  The aluminum box that comes through the firewall from the engine compartment and contains the starter. Mine appears to have gone out on my Model 2, 582 and I don't relish removing the engine just to get at the starter.



I also don't relish paying retail price for a new starter (~$800).  Any suggestions there?



Thanks,

Chris



Sioux Falls, SD

Model 2, 582 	


Don't waste you time , pull the engine. 

Starter simple to fix --usually just clean up commutator bars , new brushes ( about 10$ or less)   Depending what is wrong etc.

does your fly like this ?   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZEIzmyyPFY

_________________
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carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:25 am Post subject: Re: starter replacement

Thanks guys.  Kinda thought pulling the engine is probably best way to go anyway.



Engine/starter have about 160 hrs on them.  Went flying on beautiful day after several weeks of rain/wind.  Landed on grass next to main runway and splattered some mud up on the wing.  



Decided to taxi over to main hanger to rinse off.  Turned the key. Relay/solenoid engaged but starter can only barely turn engine through compression cycles.  Ammeter checked during the flight showed good charge.  New battery this year but just to be sure, tried jumper start from fresh car batt without improvement.  Bypassed starter relay with heavy cable.  No improvement. 



Only thing left is B+ connection to starter post (might be corroded).  Otherwise, there's a shorted winding or other bad component in the starter.  Acuity of problem argues for this too.  The thing was working one minute, then not the next.



Chris

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: starter replacement

At 08:35 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I also don't relish paying retail price for a new starter 

(~$800).  Any suggestions there?


	


Yes,

         Sioux Falls is probably big enough to have a shop that works 

on automotive starters. They'll generally be able to fix just about 

any starter. Just make sure you tell them it's for a snow machine, or 

wet-bike, or anything but an airplane.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

airjunkee

Joined: 08 Nov 2009
Posts: 2
Location: Vancouver Canada

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: Re: starter replacement

Hello Chris,



I have just registered on this forum (have been lurking for a while). I have a kitfox iv 1050.  I had a starter issue on a 582 blue head a few years back and like you was not happy with the rotax starter pricing.  My starter on my engine had a rotax sticker on it but it also had a nippondenso sticker on it with a part number.  I ordered the nippondenso starter (around $160.00 US).  The same starter is also used on the 580 seadoo engine.  The part numbers are as follows:  nippondenso  128000-486,491090   seadoo  278-000-311,  278-000-316



There is a Denso distributor that can ship out the starter to you  1-800-966-6672



I ordered the nippon denso starter and it worked great, you can also order a brushes for about $14.00. The seadoo part numbers can be found by a google search of "nippondenso 128000-486,491090"



Hope this information is useful

  

Shawn kitfox iv 912

KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: starter replacement

Chris,

  

 Be sure that your electrical system is delivering full power to the starter  by connecting a DC volt meter across the B+ post on the starter and the  starter frame.  A poor ground connection back to the battery can be  the culprit.  A poorly crimped or corroded terminal can be the cause.   Measure the voltage delivered to the starter during cranking by method  above.  This voltage reading will be the proof of what is going  on.  

  

 John 

  

  In a message dated 11/8/2009 8:28:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  carlisle_99(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "carlisle"    <carlisle_99(at)yahoo.com>



Thanks guys.  Kinda thought pulling    the engine is probably best way to go anyway.



Engine/starter have about    160 hrs on them.  Went flying on beautiful day after several weeks of    rain/wind.  Landed on grass next to main runway and splattered some mud    up on the wing.  



Decided to taxi over to main hanger to rinse    off.  Turned the key. Relay/solenoid engaged but starter can only barely    turn engine through compression cycles.  Ammeter checked during the    flight showed good charge.  New battery this year but just to be sure,    tried jumper start from fresh car batt without improvement.  Bypassed    starter relay with heavy cable.  No improvement. 



Only thing left    is B+ connection to starter post (might be corroded).  Otherwise, there's    a shorted winding or other bad component in the starter.  Acuity of    problem argues for this too.  The thing was working one minute, then not    the next.



Chris





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271675#271675===============================================

_nbsp;             (And Get Some AWESOME FREE     to find   Gifts  tric  re  b  k you for  p;                        -Matt Dralle,    List  ========================   the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ==================================================



	


  [quote][b]

carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: starter replacement

Shawn...Thanks a lot.  That's the info I was looking for.  Or at least I thought so.



John...You win the prize.  Had time today to remove cowling and sure enough, the stud that holds the starter onto the rear housing had fractured.  The starter held but the grounding strap from there to the engine mount was hanging in the wind.



Apparently, this is a common problem.  Anyone else had their starter mounting studs break off?



Chris

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: Re: starter replacement

 	  carlisle wrote: 	
		  Shawn...Thanks a lot.  That's the info I was looking for.  Or at least I thought so.



John...You win the prize.  Had time today to remove cowling and sure enough, the stud that holds the starter onto the rear housing had fractured.  The starter held but the grounding strap from there to the engine mount was hanging in the wind.



Apparently, this is a common problem.  Anyone else had their starter mounting studs break off?



Chris 	




No studs broken off here  but I will tell and warn you to make sure you adjust to specs when replacing starter onto housing again.  The spec is .040  ( 1 mil) spacing.  The starter is rubber mounted.  failure to do so and you will likely break off the the housing at rear of engine.



I would replace both studs at same time and run your ground to side of engine block rather than the little jumper that you likey have. Also buy NEW self locking nuts.

carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:08 am Post subject: Re: starter replacement

Thanks Dave.  I got the impression from the reading I've done so far that the starter mounting is pretty critical.  I'll be careful.



Chris

malpass

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Marietta, Georgia

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: Re: starter replacement

Yes, starter mount stud breakage is common.  If I can remember correctly, the one on the left side is the one that always will break.  The first one on my grayhead broke at about 50 hours, and I just had to replace another recently at about 550 hours.  unfortunately engine removal is the best way to go, though I have heard some, repair the starter from the cabin.[/quote]

_________________
kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead

carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: starter replacement

How are the studs installed?  Are they threaded or pressed?



Chris

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: Re: starter replacement

threaded.  If you need new orings let me know.. I have a BOAT load of them I ordered... By buying bulk from the manufacture, I think it came out to about 12.00 for a new set of orings instead of the outrageous price rotax wants.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: starter replacement

akflyer...Thanks.  Do you have all the different sizes?  There's the big one that goes on the starter motor itself, and 3 different sizes that go on the studs.



Chris

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: Re: starter replacement

yep, got them all... and lots of them!

carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: starter replacement

Whadaya want for a full set?  You don't happen to have extra studs do you?



Chris

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: starter replacement

I think they were 10 or 12 bucks shipped for a set.  I dont have an extra stud, but you should be able to get one at the hardware store, or a bolt specialty place around town.



I am at work till the 24th, but email me your address and I will have the wife ship a set of orings out to you.



akflyer_2000 at yahoo.com

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