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Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

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zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the modifications are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality reasons.  These mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would be equivalent to a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and labor.  At a minimal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders?

  

  

         [quote][b]

annken100

Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Mr. or Ms. Nameless,



Zenith is not GM or Ford.  I don't see how Zenith can provide the mod kits for free. From what I've read, Zenith already has multiple law suits pending with probably more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free modification kits would serve to hasten the demise of Zenith. If you think it sucks now, I imagine it would suck a lot more if Zenith weren't around to provide support for the modifications.



The modifications are a good thing.  The mods take a great airplane and make it that much better.



Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not turn against them.



Ken Pavlou

_________________
601 XL / Corvair

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

I am a home builder, so the labor costs for the mods are not an issue. What is critical to me is that I want to build an airplane in which I can give rides to my friends and relatives without the nagging fear that the airplane will self destruct. I believe that the mod package will deliver that level of performance. When I look at the parts involved in dwgs 1-3, I cannot imagine a cost from Zenair of more than $1000 or so, probably less. Sure I could scratch build the parts for perhaps $200 or so, but I am happy to pay Zenair to make the parts. I believe there will be a few issues with the mod package, but those will be ironed out as more and more builders incorporate the mods. I for one, would like to see the bolts in the new spar cap replaced with solid rivets. Admittedly, I've yet to drill out my first solid rivet, but I suspect that it is a common job for RV builders. With practice, I think I could learn.



 I agree with Ken and others that providing free mod kits is beyond Zenair's means at this critical juncture. I'd rather pay them for the package, keep their work force intact and the company in business, so that Caleb or Roger will be there when I have a question.



 I want to commend Zenair for addressing the problems with the 601XL/650 and producing a comprehensive solution. I was especially happy to see the open publication of the DER report on the load tests for the modified airframe. That is just the kind of customer commitment that I believe is needed to reestablish the Zenair brand in general and the 601XL/650 reputation in particular. Bravo Zenair!



 Terry



 

 At 10:22 AM 11/9/2009 -0800, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the modifications are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality reasons.  These mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would be equivalent to a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and labor.  At a minimal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders? 	
 

 

 Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; waiting on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/     [quote][b]

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

pdn8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

$1000.00?!?!?!  Let me bend over now.  I'm thinking more like a couple hundred at most.



Bill Pagan 

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>

Subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:56 PM



 I am a home builder, so the labor costs for the mods are not an issue. What is critical to me is that I want to build an airplane in which I can give rides to my friends and relatives without the nagging fear that the airplane will self destruct. I believe that the mod package will deliver that level of performance. When I look at the parts involved in dwgs 1-3, I cannot imagine a cost from Zenair of more than $1000 or so, probably less. Sure I could scratch build the parts for perhaps $200 or so, but I am happy to pay Zenair to make the parts. I believe there will be a few issues with the mod package, but those will be ironed out as more and more builders incorporate the mods. I for one, would like to see the bolts in the new spar cap replaced with solid rivets. Admittedly, I've yet to drill out my first solid rivet, but I suspect that it is a common job for RV builders. With practice, I think I could learn.



I agree with Ken  and others that providing free mod kits is beyond Zenair's means at this critical juncture. I'd rather pay them for the package, keep their work force intact and the company in business, so that Caleb or Roger will be there when I have a question.



I want to commend Zenair for addressing the problems with the 601XL/650 and producing a comprehensive solution. I was especially happy to see the open publication of the DER report on the load tests for the modified airframe. That is just the kind of customer commitment that I believe is needed to reestablish the Zenair brand in general and the 601XL/650 reputation in particular. Bravo Zenair!



Terry

At 10:22 AM 11/9/2009 -0800, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the modifications are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality reasons.  These mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would be equivalent to a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and labor.  At a minimal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders? 	
 

Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; waiting on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/  	  Quote: 	
		  



ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com

/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com

ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com

llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com



	


	


         [quote][b]

annken100

Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Terry,



I don't think the mod kit will be anywhere near $1000.00.  I get the feeling that Zenith will provide these kits for $500 or less.  Either way, I agree that buying the kit from Zenith is the easiest way to go.



Ken Pavlou

_________________
601 XL / Corvair

service(at)eipdiesel.com.
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

There is no way possible that the price of this kit, if there is one, should be anything like $1000. ZAC can supply a full upgrade kit from the XL601 to the CH650 for less than $200, this included a full set of new drawings, a complete rudder kit, new nose leg and several other items. If you can scratch build the parts for less than $200 don’t you think ZAC can build them for less than that? Surely there has been enough speculation, let’s all have some patience and wait and see what they offer. Suggesting the kit could cost $1000 is ridiculous and not at all helpful.  

     

Kind regards,  

   

   

Greg Cox  

Sydney, Australia  

  

       

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Phillips

 Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2009 7:57 AM

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?  

  

  

   

I am a home builder, so the labor costs for the mods are not an issue. What is critical to me is that I want to build an airplane in which I can give rides to my friends and relatives without the nagging fear that the airplane will self destruct. I believe that the mod package will deliver that level of performance. When I look at the parts involved in dwgs 1-3, I cannot imagine a cost from Zenair of more than $1000 or so, probably less. Sure I could scratch build the parts for perhaps $200 or so, but I am happy to pay Zenair to make the parts. I believe there will be a few issues with the mod package, but those will be ironed out as more and more builders incorporate the mods. I for one, would like to see the bolts in the new spar cap replaced with solid rivets. Admittedly, I've yet to drill out my first solid rivet, but I suspect that it is a common job for RV builders. With practice, I think I could learn.

 

 I agree with Ken and others that providing free mod kits is beyond Zenair's means at this critical juncture. I'd rather pay them for the package, keep their work force intact and the company in business, so that Caleb or Roger will be there when I have a question.

 

 I want to commend Zenair for addressing the problems with the 601XL/650 and producing a comprehensive solution. I was especially happy to see the open publication of the DER report on the load tests for the modified airframe. That is just the kind of customer commitment that I believe is needed to reestablish the Zenair brand in general and the 601XL/650 reputation in particular. Bravo Zenair!

 

 Terry

 

 

 At 10:22 AM 11/9/2009 -0800, you wrote:

 

   

After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the modifications are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality reasons.  These mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would be equivalent to a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and labor.  At a minimal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders?  



 Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; waiting on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/    	  Quote: 	
		    www.aeroelectric.com 	
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      [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Sure,  keep American jobs...  and a Great Aircraft Factory...  

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 Flying 701 912S  272 happy hrs 

 (My brother Larry) ready for a long weekend-flyin near Puerto Vallarta this Friday (Monday a local holiday).

 Building 601 XL Jab 3300  fuselage  almost ready (just need a little work in the center spars:-).    Working on wings (not closed yet), happy and ready to order the Upgrade kit...  

(Is more dificult and expensive to learn to speak mandarin 

 

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, annken100 <annken100(at)aol.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: annken100 <annken100(at)aol.com>

Subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 2:32 PM



 --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "annken100" <annken100(at)aol.com (annken100(at)aol.com)>



Mr. or Ms. Nameless,



Zenith is not GM or Ford.  I don't see how Zenith can provide the mod kits for free. From what I've read, Zenith already has multiple law suits pending with probably more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free modification kits would serve to hasten the demise of Zenith. If you think it sucks now, I imagine it would suck a lot more if Zenith weren't around to provide support for the modifications.



The modifications are a good thing.  The mods take a great airplane and make it that much better.



Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not turn against them.



Ken Pavlou



--------

601 XL / Corvair





Read this topic online  here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27onics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contributi;               -Matt Dralle, List Adminnbsp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

_sp; --> ht





	


         [quote][b]

zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Mr. Ken Pavlou,

  

 Any Joe off the street can tell Zenith is not GM/Ford.  Zenith do produce products some of which are good while others are questionable.  Like any other business entities, companies producing good products thrive while companies producing questionable products perish.  While I like to see Zenith flourish, I find it objectionable for any company to further ask its customer to cough $$$  to correct something that may be defective.  Zenith called the modifications as "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and not necessary for intended safe operations.  If the so-called Zenith Zodiac "upgrades" were truly unnecessary for safe operations, then I would wholeheartedly agree that the upgrade carry a premium;  but if the "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design flaws, then designer/manufacturer should absorb the costs.

 

   From: annken100 <annken100(at)aol.com>

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 1:32:02 PM

Subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?



--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "annken100" <annken100(at)aol.com (annken100(at)aol.com)>



Mr. or Ms. Nameless,



Zenith is not GM or Ford.  I don't see how Zenith can provide the mod kits for free. From what I've read, Zenith already has multiple law suits pending with probably more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free modification kits would serve to hasten the demise of Zenith. If you think it sucks now, I imagine it would suck a lot more if Zenith weren't around to provide support  for the modifications.



The modifications are a good thing.  The mods take a great airplane and make it that much better.



Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not turn against them.



Ken Pavlou



--------

601 XL / Corvair





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2ww.aeroelectric.com/" er's Bookstore wwtp://www.homebuilthelp.com/" target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com

_bsp;                     ========================

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

If Zenith makes them available, I will purchase from them.



They've got to be hanging on by a thread, financially, and they need our support.  We builders are much better off if they remain in business.



We all gave a lot of thought into which aircraft to buy or build.  At one point in time every one of us here considered the Zodiac to be the best aircraft for our needs.  With these upgrades, I feel that the Zodiac can again be that aircraft.



The folks who really stand to lose out are the guys just starting out on the new 750's.  They don't have an iron in this fire at all, yet if Zenith goes under the 750 builders will lose out too.



Patrick

N63PZ

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

But this shows one of Zenith's strengths when compared to the other major

manufactures (Vans, Rans, etc): except for the 801 the plans are real,

complete plans - not assembly instructions. Yes it would be bad, painful and

undeserved if Zenith folded. But as the many scratch builders demonstrate if

all you have are the plans you can build (or finish) your plane.



-- Craig



--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Mr. Smith,



I agree with your comment to a certain degree, but I don't think it 

applies in this case.



Zenith is not the manufacturer of kit built planes, the builder 

is.  Zenith manufactures parts for kits and also distributes 

documents such as drawings and assembly instructions.  In my 

experience they have always stood behind any parts that had problems 

or were shipped in error (e.g. two lefts and no rights when a left 

and right are needed).  That is the extent of their responsibility 

both in my opinion and in the clear language of the contracts each of 

us signed with them.



Zenith never guaranteed the design was good.  On the other hand they 

have expended a great deal of effort and money in an attempt to 

improve the design to deal with the accidents and government 

actions.  I expect them to eat those costs and only to charge their 

customers, us, for additional materials and labor they perform to 

produce the parts.  If they want to charge for the design prints and 

instructions I will pay their fee, but I would be very surprised if 

they chose to do that.  It would be inconsistent with their past behavior.



I am happy to pay for the needed parts to upgrade my airplane to the 

new design level.  I would do this whether there were accidents 

involved or not.  My goal is to have the best and safest plane I can, 

and the price of additional parts is a small one in my opinion.  The 

labor to tear down my plane and install the parts is a much greater 

price for me to pay, but that is all part of the formula of choosing 

to build a plane from a kit.



I am much less happy to pay outrageous taxes to my state for the cost 

of my plane and registration and excise taxes, etc.  However, I pay 

those too.  It is all part of the cost of airplane ownership.



Paul

XL ready to order upgrade parts.



At 03:40 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mr. Ken Pavlou,



Any Joe off the street can tell Zenith is not GM/Ford.  Zenith do 

produce products some of which are good while others are 

questionable.  Like any other business entities, companies producing 

good products thrive while companies producing questionable products 

perish.  While I like to see Zenith flourish, I find it 

objectionable for any company to further ask its customer to cough 

$$$  to correct something that may be defective.  Zenith called the 

modifications as "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and 

not necessary for intended safe operations.  If the so-called Zenith 

Zodiac "upgrades" were truly unnecessary for safe operations, then I 

would wholeheartedly agree that the upgrade carry a premium;  but if 

the "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design flaws, then 

designer/manufacturer should absorb the costs.

stormyflight(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

I have owned a Mooney for 20 years and I don't remember a single instance of them offering to pay for a required AD, even when there was an unsafe condition due to a design issue.  Lycoming and Hartzell too.



Jim Machin

601 XL



--- On Mon, 11/9/09, John Smith <zenithlist(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: John Smith <zenithlist(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:40 PM

 Mr. Ken Pavlou,

  

 Any Joe off the street can tell

 Zenith is not GM/Ford.  Zenith do produce products some

 of which are good while others are questionable.  Like

 any other business entities, companies producing good

 products thrive while companies producing questionable

 products perish.  While I like to see Zenith flourish,

 I find it objectionable for any company to further ask its

 customer to cough $$$  to correct something that may be

 defective.  Zenith called the modifications as

 "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and

 not necessary for intended safe operations.  If the

 so-called Zenith Zodiac "upgrades" were truly

 unnecessary for safe operations, then I would wholeheartedly

 agree that the upgrade carry a premium;  but if the

 "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design

 flaws, then designer/manufacturer should absorb the

 costs.

 

 

 

 

 From:

 annken100 <annken100(at)aol.com>

 To:

 zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Mon,

 November 9, 2009 1:32:02 PM

 Subject:

 Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

 

 

 "annken100" <annken100(at)aol.com>

 

 Mr. or Ms. Nameless,

 

 Zenith is not GM or Ford.  I don't see how Zenith

 can provide the mod kits for free. From what I've read,

 Zenith already has multiple law suits pending with probably

 more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free

 modification kits would serve to hasten the demise of

 Zenith. If you think it sucks now, I imagine it would suck a

 lot more if Zenith weren't around to provide support

  for the modifications.

 

 The modifications are a good thing.  The mods take a

 great airplane and make it that much better.

 

 Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not

 turn against them.

 

 Ken Pavlou

 

 --------

 601 XL / Corvair

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p ww.aeroelectric.com/"

 er's Bookstore wwtp://www.homebuilthelp.com/"

 target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com

 _bsp;              

       ========================

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

       

 

 

 provided

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Bill....  Please!  Lets NOT speculate...  Thats for the girls at the laundry shop 

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower.



--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 4:20 PM



     $1000.00?!?!?!  Let me bend over now.  I'm thinking more like a couple hundred at most.



Bill Pagan 

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>

Subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:56 PM



 I am a home builder, so the labor costs for the mods are not an issue. What is critical to me is that I want to build an airplane in which I can give rides to my friends and relatives without the nagging fear that the airplane will self destruct. I believe that the mod package will deliver that level of performance. When I look at the parts involved in dwgs 1-3, I cannot imagine a cost from Zenair of more than $1000 or so, probably less. Sure I could scratch build the parts for perhaps $200 or so, but I am happy to pay Zenair to make the parts. I believe there will be a few issues with the mod package, but those will be ironed out as more and more builders incorporate the mods. I for one, would like to see the bolts in the new spar cap replaced with solid rivets. Admittedly, I've yet to drill out my first solid rivet, but I suspect that it is a common job for RV builders. With practice, I think I could learn.



I agree with Ken  and others that providing free mod kits is beyond Zenair's means at this critical juncture. I'd rather pay them for the package, keep their work force intact and the company in business, so that Caleb or Roger will be there when I have a question.



I want to commend Zenair for addressing the problems with the 601XL/650 and producing a comprehensive solution. I was especially happy to see the open publication of the DER report on the load tests for the modified airframe. That is just the kind of customer commitment that I believe is needed to reestablish the Zenair brand in general and the 601XL/650 reputation in particular. Bravo Zenair!



Terry

At 10:22 AM 11/9/2009 -0800, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the modifications are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality reasons.  These mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would be equivalent to a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and labor.  At a minimal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders? 	
 

Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; waiting on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/  	  Quote: 	
		  



ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com

/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com

ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com

llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com



	




	


 	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank rel=nofollow>www.aeroelectric.com

/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.buildersbooks.com

=_blank rel=nofollow>www.homebuilthelp.com

blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com



	


	


         [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Perfect example  Jim,  I think the same, but was not able to find the correct words.

  

 Gary Gower.

 601XL  will upgrade to have fun building and enjoy better the plane.



--- On Mon, 11/9/09, J.T. Machin <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: J.T. Machin <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:29 PM



 --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "J.T. Machin" <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com (stormyflight(at)yahoo.com)>



I have owned a Mooney for 20 years and I don't remember a single instance of them offering to pay for a required AD, even when there was an unsafe condition due to a design issue.  Lycoming and Hartzell too.



Jim Machin

601 XL



--- On Mon, 11/9/09, John Smith <zenithlist(at)yahoo.com (zenithlist(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: John Smith <zenithlist(at)yahoo.com (zenithlist(at)yahoo.com)>

 Subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)

 Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:40 PM

 Mr. Ken Pavlou,

  

 Any Joe off the street can tell

 Zenith is not GM/Ford.  Zenith do produce products some

 of which are good while others are questionable.  Like

 any other business entities, companies producing good

 products thrive while companies producing questionable

 products perish.  While I like to see Zenith flourish,

 I find it objectionable for any company to further ask its

 customer to cough $$$  to correct something that may be

 defective.  Zenith called the modifications as

 "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and

 not necessary for intended safe operations.  If the

 so-called Zenith Zodiac  "upgrades" were truly

 unnecessary for safe operations, then I would wholeheartedly

 agree that the upgrade carry a premium;  but if the

 "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design

 flaws, then designer/manufacturer should absorb the

 costs.

 

 

 

 

 From:

 annken100 <annken100(at)aol.com (annken100(at)aol.com)>

 To:

 zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)

 Sent: Mon,

 November 9, 2009 1:32:02 PM

 Subject:

 Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

 

 --> Zenith601-List message posted by:

 "annken100" <annken100(at)aol.com (annken100(at)aol.com)>

 

 Mr. or Ms. Nameless,

 

 Zenith is not GM or Ford.  I don't see how Zenith

 can provide the mod kits for free. From what I've read,

 Zenith already has multiple law suits pending with probably

 more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free

 modification kits would serve to hasten the demise of

 Zenith. If you think it sucks now, I imagine it would suck a

 lot more if Zenith weren't around to provide support

  for the modifications.

 

 The modifications are a good thing.  The mods take a

 great airplane and make it that much better.

 

 Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not

 turn against them.

 

 Ken Pavlou

 

 --------

 601 XL /  Corvair

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2ww.aeroelectric.com/"

 er's Bookstore wwtp://www.homebuilthelp.com/"

 target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com

 _bsp;              

       ========================

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

       

 

 

 provided

 

 


	




      

http://f=======================





	


__________________________________________________

Do You [quote][b]

zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

I don't know about your kit but my center spar and wing spars were completely built by Zenith.  All I had to do was to mount the center spar and attach some parts to the wing spars.  Now Zenith wanted me to remove those parts so that I could "fix" the spars that Zenith built.  Something was wrong with that picture!  I couldn't imagine those with Zenith quick built kit would feel.  We all had to sign the contract to make purchases with Zenith but that would not completely release Zenith from liability as we shall see in pending and upcoming lawsuits.

   From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 6:55:48 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)>

Mr. Smith,

I agree with your comment to a certain degree, but I don't think it applies in this case.

Zenith is not the manufacturer of kit built planes, the builder is.  Zenith manufactures parts for kits and also distributes documents such as drawings and assembly instructions.  In my experience they have always stood behind any parts that had problems or were shipped in error (e.g. two lefts and no rights  when a left and right are needed).  That is the extent of their responsibility both in my opinion and in the clear language of the contracts each of us signed with them.

Zenith never guaranteed the design was good.  On the other hand they have expended a great deal of effort and money in an attempt to improve the design to deal with the accidents and government actions.  I expect them to eat those costs and only to charge their customers, us, for additional materials and labor they perform to produce the parts.  If they want to charge for the design prints and instructions I will pay their fee, but I would be very surprised if they chose to do that.  It would be inconsistent with their past behavior.

I am happy to pay for the needed parts to upgrade my airplane to the new design level.  I would do this whether there were accidents involved or not.  My goal is to have the best and safest plane I can, and  the price of additional parts is a small one in my opinion.  The labor to tear down my plane and install the parts is a much greater price for me to pay, but that is all part of the formula of choosing to build a plane from a kit.

I am much less happy to pay outrageous taxes to my state for the cost of my plane and registration and excise taxes, etc.  However, I pay those too.  It is all part of the cost of airplane ownership.

Paul

XL ready to order upgrade parts.

At 03:40 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mr. Ken Pavlou,

 Any Joe off the street can tell Zenith is not GM/Ford.  Zenith do produce products some of which are good while others are questionable.  Like any other business entities, companies producing good products thrive while companies producing questionable products perish.  While I like to see Zenith flourish, I find it objectionable for any company to further ask its  customer to cough $$$  to correct something that may be defective.  Zenith called the modifications as "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and not necessary for intended safe operations.  If the so-called Zenith Zodiac "upgrades" were truly unnecessary for safe operations, then I would wholeheartedly agree that the upgrade carry a premium;  but if the "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design flaws, then desig AeroElectric www.f="http://www.buildersbooks.com/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com

           [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

If in any case we sadly damage a part (or section) of our Zenith airplane.

 We can make the parts to rebuilt it from scratch OR decide to buy some OR all the parts from ZAC, even years later...   There are several examples world wide, at least one locally... And his plane is now flying and he is a happy pilot once more.

  

 Have you ever think about any other kit airplane owner?  1,000.00's of dollars lost in the write off    just for a "simple" hard landing or a slow nose gear folding with roll over...

 (I got a photo of one in a *.pps)

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 Happy ZAC airplanes owner...



--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com>

Subject: RE: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:47 PM



 --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com (craig(at)craigandjean.com)>



But this shows one of Zenith's strengths when compared to the other major

manufactures (Vans, Rans, etc): except for the 801 the plans are real,

complete plans - not assembly instructions. Yes it would be bad, painful and

undeserved if Zenith folded. But as the many scratch builders demonstrate if

all you have are the plans you can build (or finish) your plane.



-- Craig



--

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

One extra comment to Paul's post...  I fly in mountain area, lots of turbulence, now in the 701,  so I will happy pay for the 601 XL upgrades, just for the extra peace of mind when I will finaly enjoy it...  

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 Fun is...  Flying at 8,500 ft ASL with a canyon below and a mountain on the side.



--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:55 PM



 --> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)>



Mr. Smith,



I agree with your comment to a certain degree, but I don't think it applies in this case.



Zenith is not the manufacturer of kit built planes, the builder is.  Zenith manufactures parts for kits and also distributes documents such as drawings and assembly instructions.  In my experience they have always stood behind any parts that had problems or were shipped in error (e.g. two lefts and no rights when a left and right are needed).  That is the extent of their responsibility both in my opinion and in the clear language of the contracts each of us signed with them.



Zenith never guaranteed the design was good.  On the other hand they have expended a great deal of effort and money in an attempt to improve the  design to deal with the accidents and government actions.  I expect them to eat those costs and only to charge their customers, us, for additional materials and labor they perform to produce the parts.  If they want to charge for the design prints and instructions I will pay their fee, but I would be very surprised if they chose to do that.  It would be inconsistent with their past behavior.



I am happy to pay for the needed parts to upgrade my airplane to the new design level.  I would do this whether there were accidents involved or not.  My goal is to have the best and safest plane I can, and the price of additional parts is a small one in my opinion.  The labor to tear down my plane and install the parts is a much greater price for me to pay, but that is all part of the formula of choosing to build a plane from a kit.



I am much less happy to pay outrageous taxes to my state for the cost of my plane and  registration and excise taxes, etc.  However, I pay those too.  It is all part of the cost of airplane ownership.



Paul

XL ready to order upgrade parts.



At 03:40 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Mr. Ken Pavlou,

 

 Any Joe off the street can tell Zenith is not GM/Ford.  Zenith do produce products some of which are good while others are questionable.  Like any other business entities, companies producing good products thrive while companies producing questionable products perish.  While I like to see Zenith flourish, I find it objectionable for any company to further ask its customer to cough $$$  to correct something that may be defective.  Zenith called the modifications as "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and not necessary for intended safe operations.  If the so-called Zenith Zodiac "upgrades" were truly unnecessary for safe operations, then I would wholeheartedly  agree that the upgrade carry a premium;  but if the "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design flaws, then designer/manufacturer should abonics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contributi;               -Matt Dralle, List Adminnbsp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

_sp; --> ht
	






	


           [quote][b]

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

I´ll pay without hesitation.



bye, 



Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

 Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Started

Engine: Jabiru 3300

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:15 am Post subject: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Actually, I learned when I had to scrap my first wing and order 

replacement parts to build another one that Zenith didn't make spars 

at all.  The spars were made for them by Zenair.



If I understood the drawings at all, there is not much being done to 

the center section that relates to its original construction.  We are 

adding another piece, a doubler, to the top of the center section and 

adding vertical reinforcements.  It doesn't look difficult to do at 

all.  We will need to remove the seats to add reinforcements to them 

that mate to the new parts on the top of the center section.  The 

additions to the wings will be considerably more difficult to 

do.  They require removal of a large portion of the skin and might 

also involve removing rear ribs.



In any case, I'm sure you can get Zenith to perform the adjustments 

to your center section.  All you need to do is remove the whole thing 

and ship it back to them along with a fee for the work.



Paul

At 10:01 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I don't know about your kit but my center spar and wing spars were 

completely built by Zenith.  All I had to do was to mount the center 

spar and attach some parts to the wing spars.  Now Zenith wanted me 

to remove those parts so that I could "fix" the spars that Zenith 

built.  Something was wrong with that picture!  I couldn't imagine 

those with Zenith quick built kit would feel.  We all had to sign 

the contract to make purchases with Zenith but that would not 

completely release Zenith from liability as we shall see in pending 

and upcoming lawsuits.

mhubel

Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?

Basically I support Zenith and in this business, the best I can expect is what apparently has happened, the engineering was done although I don't fully think the correct issues were all addressed.



Having said that, I must express my disappointment in some issues with the 601 line. I will admit that when I selected it, perhaps I should have done more due diligence. First and probably of most significance to the current issue, when I saw the 6G number in the brochure, I assumed it had the same meaning as every production plane I have flown. There the only advertised G number I have seen is one the aircraft is designed to operate at on a regular basis. In that light 6G is near acrobatic strength, I thought this is indestructible. I didn't understand the meaning of the new term "ultimate" until I got the kit.



Secondly, the performance numbers in the factory brochure are a bit misleading. They talk about a 120 knot cruse aircraft with the Jabiru 3300 engine. What is not said is that this number is not at the normal 75% cruse power but at full throttle. Yes the engine allows that but no aircraft engine that I know of will last long if used at full throttle for extended periods. This does not count the 10 GPH fuel rate. I don't call that "cruse".



At the moment the plane is to be dis-assembled and put in the corner of the hanger. The prime spot will be occupied by a Grumman AA-1 if I can find one. It is so strong  that the people would probably be flattened before the wing complains. If all this blows over and one can get reasonable liability insurance in the future, the updates might be done. Otherwise, there will be an engine and radios with a big metal bracket for sale.

_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com

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