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Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

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klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:05 am Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

food for thought---- regardless of why the XL had wing failures, whether it 

was from "aileron flutter", incorrect design or what have you-----------Has 

any mention to the wing failures being "immediate" ( meaning one minute your 

wings are 100% fine and the next you have a failed wing)  or is the failure 

caused by a build of "fractures" occuring in the wing over a given period of 

time caused by different circumstances?



Therefore,  could there be structure damage "fractures" to wings to those 

airplanes that have been flying?



Fritz-------- do not archive

---

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith test results

There very well could be if the airframe has been stressed beyond its limits.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:28 am Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Ron, what you say is true, but why is this airplane the only home built that the wings rip off  on a regular basis? XL pilots as a group must be the worlds worst pilots!  Maybe we all need a personality test to make sure we all don't have a death wish.



Terry Turnquist



---

Scotsman

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Zenith test results

Spot on Terry...surely by now the doubters on the list have to admit that regardless of the root cause (flutter, poor construction, poor piloting) that there is a strange tendency for the XL have fatal wing issues that are not mirrored by other homebuilts.  Which has to mean that XL builders/pilots etc are statistically worst pilots/builders....unless of course there is a design issue..god forbid as the one common factor is the aircraft.



If we see anymore wing loss incidents when arguably the XL pilots are wholly sensitised to flutter, pitch sensitivity, cable tension etc and thus significantly less likely to exceed the design limits the maybe it is a latent design problem.  It is interesting to note the wreckage distribution of the latest crash in the abovementioned period which speaks of in flight structural failure for unknown reasons. 



Let's just accept that there is a problem and implement the changes.



James

_________________
Cell +27 83 675 0815

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Zenair%20CH601UL,%20G-YOXI%2005-07.pdf



Old report maybe this will answer some questions



do not archive



On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:28 AM, Terry Turnquist <ter_turn(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote] 



 Ron, what you say is true, but why is this airplane the only home built that the wings rip off  on a regular basis? XL pilots as a group must be the worlds worst pilots!  Maybe we all need a personality test to make sure we all don't have a death wish.



 Terry Turnquist



 ---

chris Sinfield

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith test results

note



the above report is not for a current zodiac XL its for an older 601

have a look at the wing structure.

Chris

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Ya,

it is probably stronger.



On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 4:51 PM, chris Sinfield

<chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 note



 the above report is not for a current zodiac XL its for an older 601

 have a look at the wing structure.

 Chris





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72845#272845

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

You can look at youtube for people looping etc



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8GcFqTpYM&feature=PlayList&p=32B018313B146EA6&index=6



Just search for 601xl looping if the link does not work



Read the pdf I posted, I bet that 601 has stronger wings (more ribs)

than the XL and that pilot rip off the wings.



E.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Ron, what you say is true, but why is this airplane the only home built that the wings rip off on a >regular basis? XL pilots as a group must be the worlds worst pilots! Maybe we all need a >personality test to make sure we all don't have a death wish.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Terry Turnquist


	


Do not archive



On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 4:51 PM, chris Sinfield

<chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 note



 the above report is not for a current zodiac XL its for an older 601

 have a look at the wing structure.

 Chris





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72845#272845

chris Sinfield

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith test results

1 G is 1 G

IF you know what you are doing and have the flying skills to back it up you  can loop and roll most planes. 



Haver a look at the B707 being rolled over Seattle he was a test pilot.



Most people do not have the skills and knowledge to roll and loop an LSA.

1G can easily turn into 6+ G's and then the structural integrity is lost.



remember they are good LSA planes fly them and treat them as they were designed.



Chris 

Zodiac XL

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Yep,

Nobody out there is doing stupid pilot tricks.

E.

Do not archive



On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:43 PM, chris Sinfield

<chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 1 G is 1 G

 IF you know what you are doing and have the flying skills to back it up you  can loop and roll most planes.



 Haver a look at the B707 being rolled over Seattle he was a test pilot.



 Most people do not have the skills and knowledge to roll and loop an LSA.

 1G can easily turn into 6+ G's and then the structural integrity is lost.



 remember they are good LSA planes fly them and treat them as they were designed.



 Chris

 Zodiac XL





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72959#272959

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Absolutely true -- which seems to get ignored in too many posts on this 

forum and, unfortunately, in practice.



Karl



--------------------------------------------------

From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>

Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:43 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>



 1 G is 1 G

 IF you know what you are doing and have the flying skills to back it up 

 you  can loop and roll most planes.



 Haver a look at the B707 being rolled over Seattle he was a test pilot.



 Most people do not have the skills and knowledge to roll and loop an LSA.

 1G can easily turn into 6+ G's and then the structural integrity is lost.



 remember they are good LSA planes fly them and treat them as they were 

 designed.



 Chris

 Zodiac XL





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72959#272959

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Chris



http://avstop.com/AC/5.html



Loop has about 3 g's. and some -g's



Oh if that only you dont f anything up



E.

Do not archive



On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:43 PM, chris Sinfield

<chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 1 G is 1 G

 IF you know what you are doing and have the flying skills to back it up you  can loop and roll most planes.



 Haver a look at the B707 being rolled over Seattle he was a test pilot.



 Most people do not have the skills and knowledge to roll and loop an LSA.

 1G can easily turn into 6+ G's and then the structural integrity is lost.



 remember they are good LSA planes fly them and treat them as they were designed.



 Chris

 Zodiac XL





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72959#272959

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Ernie,



There a quite a few stupid pilot tricks described on this website.  BTW, 

that 707 roll sold a lot of airplanes.  It also, if I remember correctly, 

cost the pilot his job -- but I may be wrong on that.



Karl



--------------------------------------------------

From: "ernie" <ernieth(at)gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:57 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Zenith test results "fractures or 

immediate"



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Yep,

 Nobody out there is doing stupid pilot tricks.

 E.

 Do not archive



 On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:43 PM, chris Sinfield

 <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> 

> <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>

>

> 1 G is 1 G

> IF you know what you are doing and have the flying skills to back it up 

> you  can loop and roll most planes.

>

> Haver a look at the B707 being rolled over Seattle he was a test pilot.

>

> Most people do not have the skills and knowledge to roll and loop an LSA.

> 1G can easily turn into 6+ G's and then the structural integrity is lost.

>

> remember they are good LSA planes fly them and treat them as they were 

> designed.

>

> Chris

> Zodiac XL

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72959#272959

>

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

I think you'll find that pilot (Johnson?) only got his butt chewed. 

Fritz  -- do not archive

---

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Karl,

I think they told him not to do it again. I got that from TV show with

the WWII ace, Hover, (SP)? that fills his coffee cup doing a roll.

Cool stuff.

E

Do not archive



On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Karl Polifka <jfowler120(at)verizon.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jfowler120(at)verizon.net>



 Ernie,



 There a quite a few stupid pilot tricks described on this website.  BTW,

 that 707 roll sold a lot of airplanes.  It also, if I remember correctly,

 cost the pilot his job -- but I may be wrong on that.



 Karl



 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "ernie" <ernieth(at)gmail.com>

 Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:57 PM

 To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Zenith test results "fractures or

 immediate"



> 

>

> Yep,

> Nobody out there is doing stupid pilot tricks.

> E.

> Do not archive

>

> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:43 PM, chris Sinfield

> <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>>

>> 

>> <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>

>>

>> 1 G is 1 G

>> IF you know what you are doing and have the flying skills to back it up

>> you  can loop and roll most planes.

>>

>> Haver a look at the B707 being rolled over Seattle he was a test pilot.

>>

>> Most people do not have the skills and knowledge to roll and loop an LSA.

>> 1G can easily turn into 6+ G's and then the structural integrity is lost.

>>

>> remember they are good LSA planes fly them and treat them as they were

>> designed.

>>

>> Chris

>> Zodiac XL

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72959#272959

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

naumuk(at)windstream.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Your're comparing apples and cumquats.

     The coffee trick was performed by Bob Hoover, one of the top 5 test 

pilots of all time. He didn't pull that stunt out of his butt- it was part 

of the airshow routine paid for by Rockwell, who built the plane he was 

flying and employed him to fly it. All speeds and G loads were calculated in 

advance, and practiced while wearing a chute and usually with a backup 

pilot. I don't think it classifies as a "Stupid pilot trick", and the 707 

roll didn't either.



---

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

I was not comparing anything. Sorry. the other poster mistook the g

load of a loop as a 1 g  load of a roll, which took us to Hoover and

the coffee trick. And if "most" 601 pilots try it I would think it is

a stupid pilot trick.



do not archive.



On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)windstream.net> wrote:

[quote] 



    Your're comparing apples and cumquats.

    The coffee trick was performed by Bob Hoover, one of the top 5 test

 pilots of all time. He didn't pull that stunt out of his butt- it was part

 of the airshow routine paid for by Rockwell, who built the plane he was

 flying and employed him to fly it. All speeds and G loads were calculated in

 advance, and practiced while wearing a chute and usually with a backup

 pilot. I don't think it classifies as a "Stupid pilot trick", and the 707

 roll didn't either.



 ---

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Look what we are dealing with



 	  Quote: 	
		  1 G is 1 G

IF you know what you are doing and have the flying skills to back it up you  can loop and roll most >planes.


	


If I was the NTSB i would be saying to the FAA, why did you think you

were doing with light sport.



You know why they teach turns around a point do get your ticket right?

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: Zenith test results "fractures or immediate"

Hello,

Looking at the web version of the matronics list, I normally get it

via email. I see the answer to the

why we are taught turns around a point to get our private pilot

licence, did not come though.

It is because to many pilots crash while circling their own house

during a fly by or buzz job.

I got my ticket in 1990, and I have read too many of this reports.

Before the XL. Back then we did not post things on youtube back then,

back then when I rented the plane I worried what the last pilot did

with it. Did he think anyone with flying skills could be a Bob Hoover?

Part 23 gave more margin. The FAA wanted industry to build a better

and cheaper plane. Older planes were over built.

Now we are overbuilding the XL, and nobody sees it.

Does the whole LSA Spec need to change for pilots who are going to ,

loop, buzz, and beat their machines until they fall apart?  How many

loops does it take to break a XL? Good Loops, not ones that you pull

too hard on the "light controls".

Most people blame lawsuits for killing GA or part 23. Is this the

first shot at LSA?

Do not archive

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 9:20 PM, ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote] Look what we are dealing with

>1 G is 1 G

>IF you know what you are doing and have the flying skills to back it up you  can loop and roll most >planes.

 If I was the NTSB i would be saying to the FAA, why did you think you

 were doing with light sport.

 You know why they teach turns around a point do get your ticket right?

 .

 .

 to many pilots crashing while circling their house.

 E

 Do not archive.

 On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)windstream.net> wrote:

> 

>

>    Your're comparing apples and cumquats.

>    The coffee trick was performed by Bob Hoover, one of the top 5 test

> pilots of all time. He didn't pull that stunt out of his butt- it was part

> of the airshow routine paid for by Rockwell, who built the plane he was

> flying and employed him to fly it. All speeds and G loads were calculated in

> advance, and practiced while wearing a chute and usually with a backup

> pilot. I don't think it classifies as a "Stupid pilot trick", and the 707

> roll didn't either.

>

> ---

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