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klehman(at)albedo.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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Well now that I also have some hours on the engine and am on record as
saying that nuisance OVM trips should not be tolerated, I must report
that I am experiencing an OVM crowbar trip about every 10 th start or
start attempt. This is a 12 volt Z-14 with small AGM batteries that
parallel during cranking. Usually both homebuilt OVM's trip. If they
trip it is usually on the first start (or start attempt) of the day and
then no more on that day.
My theory is that the cranking voltage is sagging way below the 12 volt
zener and dragging the reference voltage down faster than it is dragging
down the trigger voltage. (The time constant of the trigger circuit is
higher than the time constant of the RC reference filter) My first
inclination was to just add a lot of capacitance across the zener,
especially since I haven't upgraded my 4.7 uF cap there to the 22 uF
that is shown on the latest revision. However that would mean that after
cranking ceases, the rising voltage would drive up the trigger voltage
faster than the reference voltage and again possibly cause a trip. I am
planning to try an intermediate experiment with a 68uF cap just for love
of an experiment on one of the OVMs.
I think the best solution however is to use a lower voltage zener
perhaps 8 or 9 volts and adjust the appropriate resistor values. I
believe that would tend to make the circuit imune to low 8 or 9 volt
cranking voltages and still retain acceptable accurancy. After all the
24 volt version uses a 12 volt zener and I suspect it is imune to this
type of tripping?? I plan to do that on at least one of my OVM's and
will report the results. The engine cranks briskly and has fairly short
starter wires. The cranking voltage does drop enough to cause my EIS4000
engine monitor to reset however.
Ken
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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At 12:23 PM 4/3/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Quote: |
Well now that I also have some hours on the engine and am on record as
saying that nuisance OVM trips should not be tolerated, I must report
that I am experiencing an OVM crowbar trip about every 10 th start or
start attempt. This is a 12 volt Z-14 with small AGM batteries that
parallel during cranking. Usually both homebuilt OVM's trip. If they
trip it is usually on the first start (or start attempt) of the day and
then no more on that day.
My theory is that the cranking voltage is sagging way below the 12 volt
zener and dragging the reference voltage down faster than it is dragging
down the trigger voltage. (The time constant of the trigger circuit is
higher than the time constant of the RC reference filter) My first
inclination was to just add a lot of capacitance across the zener,
especially since I haven't upgraded my 4.7 uF cap there to the 22 uF
that is shown on the latest revision. However that would mean that after
cranking ceases, the rising voltage would drive up the trigger voltage
faster than the reference voltage and again possibly cause a trip. I am
planning to try an intermediate experiment with a 68uF cap just for love
of an experiment on one of the OVMs.
|
Ken, thank you for sharing this with us. Another thing to
consider is putting a diode in series with the 392 ohm
resistor. This will keep the momentary brown-out spike from
pulling down on the capacitor during the transient.
Quote: | I think the best solution however is to use a lower voltage zener
perhaps 8 or 9 volts and adjust the appropriate resistor values. I
believe that would tend to make the circuit imune to low 8 or 9 volt
cranking voltages and still retain acceptable accurancy. After all the
24 volt version uses a 12 volt zener and I suspect it is imune to this
type of tripping?? I plan to do that on at least one of my OVM's and
will report the results. The engine cranks briskly and has fairly short
starter wires. The cranking voltage does drop enough to cause my EIS4000
engine monitor to reset however.
|
Have you ever put a 'scope on it to find out how low it
goes? It would be interesting to know. Also, since I'm
phasing out the MBS4991 trigger diode for all future
production, I have an inventory that I'm going to offer
for those who would like to fabricate the original circuit
that was not plagued with the phenomenon you've identified.
In any case, I think your analysis has merit and adding the
diode would break the pull-down path during brownout time.
Bob . . .
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klehman(at)albedo.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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Thank you for your thoughts Bob.
I considered adding a diode in series with the 392 R resistor to pull up
the reference voltage quicker but discarded the idea. I was thinking
that while the voltage was rising immediately after cranking, such a
diode would give the trigger voltage a 0.6 volt headstart so to speak.
As you point out though that doesn't matter if the reference voltage
doesn't sag in the first place. Have to check again but I think I'm just
barely seeing over 12 volts at the time that I start cranking so not
much headroom to bring the ref. voltage up to 12 volts before cranking.
Maybe there's a schottky type diode in my junk pile... er..parts bin.
This is an EFI engine so it does not normally need much cranking. I will
try this diode on one of the OVM's this morning but it will take awhile
before I know whether it does the trick.
My analog scope is not the greatest tool for capturing one shot
transients. I've been searching for a low cost portable or laptop DSO
for the last couple of days as I'd also like some proof that my ignition
is not occasionally missing a beat. There are a couple of offerings that
seem like they might be useful in the $200 to $400. range. The
megasquirt backup fuel injection that I'm using has datalog capability
to a laptop and that is opening my eyes a bit to how useful digital
recording can be.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote: |
At 12:23 PM 4/3/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Well now that I also have some hours on the engine and am on record as
>saying that nuisance OVM trips should not be tolerated, I must report
>that I am experiencing an OVM crowbar trip about every 10 th start or
>start attempt. This is a 12 volt Z-14 with small AGM batteries that
>parallel during cranking. Usually both homebuilt OVM's trip. If they
>trip it is usually on the first start (or start attempt) of the day and
>then no more on that day.
>
>My theory is that the cranking voltage is sagging way below the 12 volt
>zener and dragging the reference voltage down faster than it is dragging
>down the trigger voltage. (The time constant of the trigger circuit is
>higher than the time constant of the RC reference filter) My first
>inclination was to just add a lot of capacitance across the zener,
>especially since I haven't upgraded my 4.7 uF cap there to the 22 uF
>that is shown on the latest revision. However that would mean that after
>cranking ceases, the rising voltage would drive up the trigger voltage
>faster than the reference voltage and again possibly cause a trip. I am
>planning to try an intermediate experiment with a 68uF cap just for love
>of an experiment on one of the OVMs.
>
>
Ken, thank you for sharing this with us. Another thing to
consider is putting a diode in series with the 392 ohm
resistor. This will keep the momentary brown-out spike from
pulling down on the capacitor during the transient.
>I think the best solution however is to use a lower voltage zener
>perhaps 8 or 9 volts and adjust the appropriate resistor values. I
>believe that would tend to make the circuit imune to low 8 or 9 volt
>cranking voltages and still retain acceptable accurancy. After all the
>24 volt version uses a 12 volt zener and I suspect it is imune to this
>type of tripping?? I plan to do that on at least one of my OVM's and
>will report the results. The engine cranks briskly and has fairly short
>starter wires. The cranking voltage does drop enough to cause my EIS4000
>engine monitor to reset however.
>
>
Have you ever put a 'scope on it to find out how low it
goes? It would be interesting to know. Also, since I'm
phasing out the MBS4991 trigger diode for all future
production, I have an inventory that I'm going to offer
for those who would like to fabricate the original circuit
that was not plagued with the phenomenon you've identified.
In any case, I think your analysis has merit and adding the
diode would break the pull-down path during brownout time.
Bob . . .
|
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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At 09:14 AM 4/4/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Quote: |
Thank you for your thoughts Bob.
I considered adding a diode in series with the 392 R resistor to pull up
the reference voltage quicker but discarded the idea. I was thinking
that while the voltage was rising immediately after cranking, such a
diode would give the trigger voltage a 0.6 volt headstart so to speak.
As you point out though that doesn't matter if the reference voltage
doesn't sag in the first place. Have to check again but I think I'm just
barely seeing over 12 volts at the time that I start cranking so not
much headroom to bring the ref. voltage up to 12 volts before cranking.
Maybe there's a schottky type diode in my junk pile... er..parts bin.
This is an EFI engine so it does not normally need much cranking. I will
try this diode on one of the OVM's this morning but it will take awhile
before I know whether it does the trick.
|
I don't think there's an issue with how fast the ref
voltage comes up, we just want to keep it from being pulled down
during the locked-rotor inrush current that every starter imposes
on a battery for the first few milliseconds while the motor
is spinning up. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1.jpg
Here we see bus voltage dipping to 7.5 volts and it takes
about 600 mS before the voltage rises above 12v. All during
this time, vref in the ov module is going to be something
lower than 12v. 392 ohms and 22uf has a time constant of
8.6 milliseconds; the brownout interval is significantly longer.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1_2.gif
This is a tighter view that shows the slope of the voltage
during starter spin-up.
There's no 'load' on Vref, it's a sinking reference that's
keeping the ref point from rising at trip time. The only reason
for the 392 resistor is to bias the zener into a low impedance
region of relatively stable voltage. You could replace the 392
ohm resistor with something much higher and also make the 'problem'
go away . . . but Vref will fall slightly with the lower bias
current and have a slight effect on setpoint stability.
I think the diode in series is the best bet. A 1N4000 series
would be fine . . . or a 1N4148/914 would work good too. What
ever you can put your hands on easiest.
Quote: | My analog scope is not the greatest tool for capturing one shot
transients. I've been searching for a low cost portable or laptop DSO
for the last couple of days as I'd also like some proof that my ignition
is not occasionally missing a beat. There are a couple of offerings that
seem like they might be useful in the $200 to $400. range. The
megasquirt backup fuel injection that I'm using has datalog capability
to a laptop and that is opening my eyes a bit to how useful digital
recording can be.
|
You got that right. I beat that drum every chance I get at RAC.
We've been able to walk up to a $30,000 car for 20 years, plug
in and have it spill it's guts. We STILL can't do that on a
$5-$20 million bizjet's systems.
Keep an eye on ebay for a TDS-210 scope. GREAT value. Even at
new prices, the TDS-210 cost 1/2 of the first good scope I
ever owned and it does 10 times as much. If the tornado
sirens go off while I'm at the bench, the TDS-210 goes with
me to the 'fraid-hole with me.
Bob . . .
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klehman(at)albedo.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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Well I'm happy to report that I put a diode in the feed to the zener on
both homebuilt OVP modules and I have not seen a nuisance OV trip since.
I have started the engine numerous times while chasing some oil leaks
and other issues so I think the problem is licked and I recommend the
mod. Thanks again Bob!
I have been searching for a used TDS-210 digital scope as recommended
below but they seem to be commanding a bit higher price than I'd like
and I notice they only have a 1K memory despite otherwise impressive
specs. At the moment I'm trying to catch sporadic extra spark events
that I suspect may be occuring in my electronic ignition. Has anybody
used one of the low cost PC laptop scopes for chasing such gremlins?
Some of the PC scopes have larger memory and are less costly than a used
tektronix. I presume that a larger memory is more useful than a fast
sample rate for ignition work. An intriguing example of one of the
pricer units is at http://www.linkinstruments.com/oscilloscope21.htm#pricing
thank you for any thoughts or recommendations
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
<nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>
>At 09:14 AM 4/4/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your thoughts Bob.
>>
>>I considered adding a diode in series with the 392 R resistor to pull up
>>the reference voltage quicker but discarded the idea. I was thinking
>>that while the voltage was rising immediately after cranking, such a
>>diode would give the trigger voltage a 0.6 volt headstart so to speak.
>>As you point out though that doesn't matter if the reference voltage
>>doesn't sag in the first place. Have to check again but I think I'm just
>>barely seeing over 12 volts at the time that I start cranking so not
>>much headroom to bring the ref. voltage up to 12 volts before cranking.
>>Maybe there's a schottky type diode in my junk pile... er..parts bin.
>>This is an EFI engine so it does not normally need much cranking. I will
>>try this diode on one of the OVM's this morning but it will take awhile
>>before I know whether it does the trick.
>>
>>
>
> I don't think there's an issue with how fast the ref
> voltage comes up, we just want to keep it from being pulled down
> during the locked-rotor inrush current that every starter imposes
> on a battery for the first few milliseconds while the motor
> is spinning up. See:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1.jpg
>
> Here we see bus voltage dipping to 7.5 volts and it takes
> about 600 mS before the voltage rises above 12v. All during
> this time, vref in the ov module is going to be something
> lower than 12v. 392 ohms and 22uf has a time constant of
> 8.6 milliseconds; the brownout interval is significantly longer.
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1_2.gif
>
> This is a tighter view that shows the slope of the voltage
> during starter spin-up.
>
> There's no 'load' on Vref, it's a sinking reference that's
> keeping the ref point from rising at trip time. The only reason
> for the 392 resistor is to bias the zener into a low impedance
> region of relatively stable voltage. You could replace the 392
> ohm resistor with something much higher and also make the 'problem'
> go away . . . but Vref will fall slightly with the lower bias
> current and have a slight effect on setpoint stability.
>
> I think the diode in series is the best bet. A 1N4000 series
> would be fine . . . or a 1N4148/914 would work good too. What
> ever you can put your hands on easiest.
>
>>My analog scope is not the greatest tool for capturing one shot
>>transients. I've been searching for a low cost portable or laptop DSO
>>for the last couple of days as I'd also like some proof that my ignition
>>is not occasionally missing a beat. There are a couple of offerings that
>>seem like they might be useful in the $200 to $400. range. The
>>megasquirt backup fuel injection that I'm using has datalog capability
>>to a laptop and that is opening my eyes a bit to how useful digital
>>recording can be.
>>
>>
>
> You got that right. I beat that drum every chance I get at RAC.
> We've been able to walk up to a $30,000 car for 20 years, plug
> in and have it spill it's guts. We STILL can't do that on a
> $5-$20 million bizjet's systems.
>
> Keep an eye on ebay for a TDS-210 scope. GREAT value. Even at
> new prices, the TDS-210 cost 1/2 of the first good scope I
> ever owned and it does 10 times as much. If the tornado
> sirens go off while I'm at the bench, the TDS-210 goes with
> me to the 'fraid-hole with me.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
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Jim Baker
Joined: 30 Mar 2006 Posts: 181 Location: Sayre, PA
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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Quote: | I have been searching for a used TDS-210 digital scope as
recommended
|
Quote: | below but they seem to be commanding a bit higher price than I'd
like
|
Quote: | and I notice they only have a 1K memory despite otherwise
impressive
|
Ken....don't know if you've ever looked at the Govt surplus sales
site.....
http://www.govliquidation.com/list/e1825
Some of these o-scopes go for a pitance (well, $50 minimum,
anyway) but you have to be careful about the condition code. If you
live near one of the bases you can inspect/test the item before a
bid....
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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At 10:41 AM 4/14/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Quote: |
Well I'm happy to report that I put a diode in the feed to the zener on
both homebuilt OVP modules and I have not seen a nuisance OV trip since.
I have started the engine numerous times while chasing some oil leaks
and other issues so I think the problem is licked and I recommend the
mod. Thanks again Bob!
|
Thank you for taking time to observe a condition, hypothesize possible
root causes and conduct experiments to confirm/deny the hypothesis.
It's a rare instance that the designer-manufacturer-user loop can be
tightly closed for the purpose of chasing the bugs out of a design
or product. It's all too common that the disappointed user throws
up their hands and goes off to try something else while the supplier
is held in isolated ignorance for data that would help them evolve
the product.
Quote: | I have been searching for a used TDS-210 digital scope as recommended
below but they seem to be commanding a bit higher price than I'd like
and I notice they only have a 1K memory despite otherwise impressive
specs. At the moment I'm trying to catch sporadic extra spark events
that I suspect may be occuring in my electronic ignition. Has anybody
used one of the low cost PC laptop scopes for chasing such gremlins?
Some of the PC scopes have larger memory and are less costly than a used
tektronix. I presume that a larger memory is more useful than a fast
sample rate for ignition work. An intriguing example of one of the
pricer units is at http://www.linkinstruments.com/oscilloscope21.htm#pricing
thank you for any thoughts or recommendations
|
The 1K of memory isn't a big restriction for capturing one screen
worth of data . . . but the task you've cited sounds like a
job for high speed data acquisition. One of my favorite tools of
yesteryear was a product by Base2 Electronics that ran off
the extended performance parallel port of a Win95 machine.
It would take 8, 12-bit samples 1000 times a second and throw
the numbers to a column delimited text file on the hard drive.
If I tied all 8 channels together, I could get 8000 samples
per second. I successfully chased a lot of gremlins out of
Beechjets with this tool. Unfortunately, the company didn't
upgrade to stay compatible with newer hardware and operating
systems and I've not found a single product that even approaches
the capability and low cost of that device ($125 with software).
I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
I'm going to add a diode to the schematic for the OVPM
this weekend. Thanks for doing the legwork on this!
Bob . . .
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aadamson(at)highrf.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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Looking for a Cheap 10 or 12 bit ADC, the "starter kits" from here are
pretty good. 4 channel I think and as you described, work on a serial
port... Also think they have a USB version
http://www.dataq.com/
Alan
--
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brian
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Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 643 Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote: | I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
|
How about doing it in such a way that it is universal. It is a small
thing but as soon as you say WinXP/USB I know that it will not run on
any of my computers (Mac, Sun, Linux/Intel).
You know, if you give it some intelligence and then put it on the
network you end up with some seriously cool remote data collection. Now
with it being on the other side of an IP connection you can write a Java
front-end that will run on anything.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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_________________ Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne Guest
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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Brian Lloyd wrote:
Quote: |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
> and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
> product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
> for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
> an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
> port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
>
>
How about doing it in such a way that it is universal. It is a small
thing but as soon as you say WinXP/USB I know that it will not run on
any of my computers (Mac, Sun, Linux/Intel).
You know, if you give it some intelligence and then put it on the
network you end up with some seriously cool remote data collection. Now
with it being on the other side of an IP connection you can write a Java
front-end that will run on anything.
Well, Brian, it sounds like you just talked yourself into a job....
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truecolor32bit(at)yahoo.c Guest
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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Chances are if the program runs in W95 you will be
successful running it in linux, using wine.
--- Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
Quote: |
England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>> I've discussed this project with my software
guy (father-in-law)
>> and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB
version of this
>> product. In the mean time, I don't have any
good recommendations
>> for you. If I run across something, I'll post
it. Hmmm, got
>> an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has
an EPP parallel
>> port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying
around here somewhere.
>>
>>
>
>How about doing it in such a way that it is
universal. It is a small
>thing but as soon as you say WinXP/USB I know that
it will not run on
>any of my computers (Mac, Sun, Linux/Intel).
>
>You know, if you give it some intelligence and then
put it on the
>network you end up with some seriously cool remote
data collection. Now
>with it being on the other side of an IP connection
you can write a Java
>front-end that will run on anything.
>
>
>
Well, Brian, it sounds like you just talked
yourself into a job....
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Admin.
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brian
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Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 643 Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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guy fulton wrote:
Quote: |
Chances are if the program runs in W95 you will be
successful running it in linux, using wine.
|
Not if you are dealing with drivers and hardware it won't.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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_________________ Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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truecolor32bit(at)yahoo.c Guest
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
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ndiswrapper was originally written for pcmcia cards
using the windows drivers .inf to provide windows
speific hardware full function in linux. ndiswrapper
found to provide function to other types of hardware,
serial, parallel, usb, in linux. I have successfully
used it many times, using wine for graphical
interface. No more than a suggestion.
guy
--- Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> wrote:
Quote: |
<brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>
guy fulton wrote:
>
fulton <truecolor32bit(at)yahoo.com>
>
> Chances are if the program runs in W95 you will be
> successful running it in linux, using wine.
Not if you are dealing with drivers and hardware it
won't.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline
Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788
(fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny
of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Admin.
|
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