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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: Tire Balance

"Thom Riddle" wrote: << … I'm considering downsizing my Slingshot 800x6 tires to 600x6 … >>  

   

Thom –  

   

I plan to do the same for my Mark-III, but for a totally different reason.  

   

A couple of years ago, I “upgraded” the tires on my Kolb by installing larger 800x6 tires, supplied by New Kolb.  

I liked the look of the bigger, balloon-ier tires, like most of the Kolbras have.  

My problem was, they are WAY out of balance.  

   

At take off speeds, my instrument panel shakes so violently that I cannot even read my instruments, due to the vibration caused by one (maybe both?) of the 800x6 tires.  Luckily, this only lasts for a couple of seconds per takeoff.  

   

I took the rim/tire assemblies to an motorcycle shop, in an attempt to get them dynamically balanced.  The shop guys told me that 1) yes, they were severely out of balance (I knew that!), and 2) they could NOT balance the tires, as there was inadequate surface mounting area on the rims to apply the stick-on weights.  (sighhh …)  

   

Anyone else ever encounter the same problem?  Is there a solution, besides chucking these cheap, made-in-China tires and getting some good (expensive), “real airplane” tires like Air Tracs?  

   

Thanks for any advice …  

   

Dennis Kirby  

Mark-III, 912ul, “Magic Bike”  

New Mexico  

      [quote][b]

slowaero

Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 17

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Tire Balance

Hi Dennis,  My wheels do the same thing.   I just apply the brakes just after I lift off.  Cheers, Dave



[quote="Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland."]"Thom Riddle" wrote: << â€¦ I'm considering downsizing my Slingshot 800x6 tires to 600x6 â€¦ >>  

   

Thom â€“  

   

I plan to do the same for my Mark-III, but for a totally different reason.  

   

A couple of years ago, I â€œupgradedâ€ the tires on my Kolb by installing larger 800x6 tires, supplied by New Kolb.  

I liked the look of the bigger, balloon-ier tires, like most of the Kolbras have.  

My problem was, they are WAY out of balance.  

   

At take off speeds, my instrument panel shakes so violently that I cannot even read my instruments, due to the vibration caused by one (maybe both?) of the 800x6 tires.  Luckily, this only lasts for a couple of seconds per takeoff.  

   

I took the rim/tire assemblies to an motorcycle shop, in an attempt to get them dynamically balanced.  The shop guys told me that 1) yes, they were severely out of balance (I knew that!), and 2) they could NOT balance the tires, as there was inadequate surface mounting area on the rims to apply the stick-on weights.  (sighhh â€¦)  

   

Anyone else ever encounter the same problem?  Is there a solution, besides chucking these cheap, made-in-China tires and getting some good (expensive), â€œreal airplaneâ€ tires like Air Tracs?  

   

Thanks for any advice â€¦  

   

Dennis Kirby  

Mark-III, 912ul, â€œMagic Bikeâ€  

New Mexico  

       	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

donaho1(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: Tire Balance

Dennis, Do A search for dyna beads. They are used in motorcycle tires. I 

have never used them but some people swear by them. Lanny FS II

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: Tire Balance

Dennis/Gang:

  

 Sometimes you can't go cheap.  Gotta spend a  buck or two to get what you are looking for.

  

 I experienced the same thing with the Armstrong,  Carlisle, and other off road equipment tires.

  

 The primary difference between these lawn equipment  tires and aircraft tires is:

  

 a.  The equipment tires are made to run off  road at very low speeds.  Therefore they are cheaper to manufacture and  leave the factory neither trued or balanced.

  

 b.  Aircraft tires are trued and balanced  prior to leaving the factory.  Normally, they do not need additional  balancing on our airplanes with slow take off and landing speeds.  If we do  have to balance a little, it is balancing the wheel and hub and not the tire, if  the factory did a good job of truing and balancing.  These tires are also  good for 120 mph service.

  

 c.  An additional benefit from using aircraft  tires is their greatly improved handling characteristics, especially on  pavement.  I was impressed at the difference.  Made flying off  pavement much more fun.

  

 I fly with 800X6 Air Tracs, and have flown my mkIII  with 600X6 Air Tracs.  Unless you are going to do a lot of off field  flying, 600 work fine.  John W had just switched back to 600X6's prior to  the flight to MV 2008.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, AL

  	  Quote: 	
		      Anyone else ever encounter the same    problem?  Is there a solution, besides chucking these cheap,    made-in-China tires and getting some good (expensive), “real airplane” tires    like Air Tracs?

      

    

Thanks for any advice …   

    

Dennis Kirby   

 





	
 _popupControl();    [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: Tire Balance

Dennis,

 I did my balance with those very same tires and  asusa wheels. Did it by guess

 while spinning them by hand until they did not stop  in the same place.

 excellent results. You can buy those stick on  weights at JC Whitney I think. Cheap!

  

 Vic

 Smooth taxying Xtra 912

   [quote][b]

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:43 am Post subject: Re: Tire Balance

Dennis:



     Be careful with stick on weights as they tend to come off in hard landings and go right through your prop.  Note the word  stick on, that means pop off.  Just a thought.

Rick Lewis



(VW water cooled engine)

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Tire Balance

Dennis,



My 800x6 Carlisle are also out of balance but I don't think they are as bad as yours. I've been able to balance cheap tires myself with stick-on weights in the past with good success but have done this only on tractor engined airplanes so the "pop-off" feature was not an issue. 



I plan to spend a bit more and get better tires when I down size for the reasons John H stated. The cheapest price I've found for AirTrac 600x6-4 is Desser Tire at $53/tire plus $43/tube. Not cheap but not a deal breaker either. Another advantage of downsizing from 800x6 is about 3 lb per wheel weight savings. If you plan a lot of rough field ops then the 6 ply rating would be a better choice and the price and weight difference is insignificant.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: Tire Balance

>     Be careful with stick on weights as they tend to come off in hard 

landings and go right through your prop.  Note the word  stick on, that 

means pop off.  Just a thought.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Rick Lewis


	




Rick L/Gang:



I used stick on weights (weights for mag wheels) in an attempt to balance 

non-aviation tires.  It helped a little, but took so many weights to get a 

little result it wasn't worth the exercise.



Was no danger losing a weight.  They are self adhesive, stuck on the rim so 

that they are under centrifical force when the wheel is rolling.



Difficult/impossible to balance a tire that is also out of round.



john h

mkIII

Titus, AL

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:32 am Post subject: Tire Balance

> I plan to spend a bit more and get better tires when I down size for the 

reasons John H stated. The cheapest price I've found for AirTrac 600x6-4 is 

Desser Tire at $53/tire plus $43/tube. Not cheap but not a deal breaker 

either. Another advantage of downsizing from 800x6 is about 3 lb per wheel 

weight savings. If you plan a lot of rough field ops then the 6 ply rating 

would be a better choice and the price and weight difference is 

insignificant.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 Thom Riddle


	


Thom R/Gang:\



Another option is used aviation tires from your local FBO.   6X6 is a very 

popular size and there are a lot of them laying around airports.  Even if 

they are bald, they would still last the life of a Kolb.  If one is friendly 

with the local aviation mechanics, they might put a couple nice take offs 

away for you.



I got tubes at MATCO this summer for $30 a piece.  My MATCO wheels require a 

90 degree valve stem.



Good quality tubes are essential to prevent failure.  Also a lot of talcum 

power to keep them lubricated inside the tire, especially if running larger 

800X6 tires.  I had two flats in 2004, one in Palmer, AK, and another at 

Fort Nelson, BC.  Both caused by tube failure.  Both had a tiny hole in the 

sidewall of the tube.  Looked like someone had puntured it with an ice pick. 

Extreme los pressure, less than about 10 PSI causes this problem.



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Tire Balance

John,



I've got a couple of 600x6 used retreads laying on the shop floor which I considered using but they are very heavy (retreads are always heavy). 



I'm trying to put the Slingshot and myself on a diet. Luray (the builder) put a 12 lb ballast in the nose which is not needed unless I lose a whole lot of weight so that is coming out this winter too. I took the back seat belts out (heavy Hooker harness) and no ELT (which it illegally didn't have to begin with) required with a single seat. I also removed the heavier back seat back panel and replaced it with polycarbonate that I can see through when refueling to know before it sloshes out that the tanks are full.



I hope to reduce the SS empty weight by about 25 lbs or so and perhaps close to that off of me too. That thought makes me hungry. Off to the kitchen .



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Tire Balance

 	  donaho1(at)verizon.net wrote: 	
		  Dennis, Do A search for dyna beads. 	




I hang around with 4x4 extremists. We run big tires and we turn them fast. They are hard to keep balanced. Some of us use 'bb's in the tires, some use water. Both work surprisingly well. I am not sure if they work well in all circumstances. For such small tires I don't know how much to add. I add about a cup of water to a large tire way out of balance.



To shake the frame as much as you describe I would wonder if the tire was mounted straight, if so many pairs of eyes had not examined it. While I imagine it is just an inferior tire, I would make sure I had checked that the tire was on the bead exactly the same amount all around. As you know they have the line around the tire that should show just outside the bead to aid in this task.



I balance my motorcycle tires by spinning them up with a bench grinder. you can get some good speed out of them like that. Watch for a dynamic imbalance too, a side-to-side motion, as well as the normal in-and-out shake.



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: Tire Balance

"Thom Riddle" wrote:  << .. If you plan a lot of rough field ops then the 6 ply rating would be a better choice … >>  

   

Thanks for the tip, Thom –  

   

However, I’ll probably opt for the regular 4-ply tires, when I go back to my original 600x6 size tires.  

After my salt flats landing incident two summers ago, I had to promise my wife I would only land on “real” runways from now on.  (sighh …)    

   

(Nobody laugh – it’s what keeps peace in my family, and a constant flow of funding for my Kolb expenses!)  

   

Dennis K.  

Do not archive  

      [quote][b]

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Tire Balance

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  Difficult/impossible to balance a tire that is also out of round. 	




Sometimes folks riding scooters get a scalloping on the tires. Some folks get a sharp rasp- the kind made of thin metal, and each tooth has a hole next  to it, I fergit the name. They have a helper fire up the scooter and spin the rear tire and hold the bike while they apply the file to the tire.



Due to the risk of injury we use two 2x4 pieces of wood. Maybe 1'-2' long. Attach them together at the end with a strap hinge. fasten the rasp-thingee to one end. Stand on one 2x4, on the ground, and the second one with the rasp can be gently and fairly safely be applied to the offending tire. Think this through and take precautions. Wear leather gloves.



One can apply this method to the front tire also using the bench grinder again.



Perhaps this idea can transfer to out-of-round UL tires, I don't know.



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: Tire Balance

GeoB:

I think you mean  "SURFORM TOOLS" -- made in various sizes & shapes.  

Good stuff.

On Dec 2, 2009, at 6:06 PM, GeoB wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 John Hauck wrote:

> Difficult/impossible to balance a tire that is also out of round.

 Sometimes folks riding scooters get a scalloping on the tires. Some  

 folks get a sharp rasp- the kind made of thin metal, and each tooth  

 has a hole next  to it, I fergit the name. They have a helper fire  

 up the scooter and spin the rear tire and hold the bike while they  

 apply the file to the tire.



 Due to the risk of injury we use two 2x4 pieces of wood. Maybe  

 1'-2' long. Attach them together at the end with a strap hinge.  

 fasten the rasp-thingee to one end. Stand on one 2x4, on the  

 ground, and the second one with the rasp can be gently and fairly  

 safely be applied to the offending tire. Think this through and  

 take precautions. Wear leather gloves.



 One can apply this method to the front tire also using the bench  

 grinder again.



 Perhaps this idea can transfer to out-of-round UL tires, I don't know.



 GeoB



 --------

 GeoB



 &quot;Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like  

 NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors&quot;





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 75864#275864

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Tire Balance

 	  russkinne(at)mac.com wrote: 	
		  I think you mean  "SURFORM TOOLS" -- made in various sizes & shapes.  Good stuff.

	
 



Yes! That's it, thanks.

GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:30 pm Post subject: Tire Balance

said like a real true good sport. I find landing on  grass the most gentle way of getting back onto the ground, good hard rolled  ground. Outlandings can have their moments .

  regards

             Downunder

             MK111c

 [quote]   ---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: Tire Balance

Do you guys go X country without taking off. I have never read anything 

about tyre balancing in any other ultralight magazine.



You taxi at walking speed, or should. No worries about `out of balance` 

tyres there. You accelerate for about 20 seconds up to 40/50 mph and then 

fly. You are beating your brains out for that?



If you always fly from a hard runway and always land fast and heavy you may, 

eventually wear a flat spot . If you fly from grass........



Lifes too short to worry about such an unimportant aspect of flying.



Just a thought



Cheers



Pat

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: Tire Balance

If your tyer is out of balance the heavy side will stop rotating with the

heavy side down,  when landing on hard surfaces you will scrape a bit of

rubber off the heavy side. When the tyre is scrubbed off enough it will stop

rotating at any random spot,  thus self balancing and then wear down evenly.



This does not work for out of round tyres.



Boyd Young



Ps the tyres spelling was for pat's benefit.  For the rest of us replace

tyre with tire.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..


	


If you always fly from a hard runway and always land fast and heavy you may,



eventually wear a flat spot . If you fly from grass........



Lifes too short to worry about such an unimportant aspect of flying.



Just a thought



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: Tire Balance

the tyres spelling was for pat's benefit. >>



Thank you Boyd. The thought is much appreciated. We use it to differentiate 

between being `tyred` or `tired`



Cheers



Pat

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:20 pm Post subject: Tire Balance

Pat -- in the UK is there another word for "exhausted", just to avoid  

confusion?

e.g, 'my rudder's black from being exhausted'

Russ

do not archive



On Dec 3, 2009, at 3:00 PM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 the tyres spelling was for pat's benefit. >>



 Thank you Boyd. The thought is much appreciated. We use it to  

 differentiate between being `tyred` or `tired`



 Cheers



 Pat

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