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windows & fiberglass

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rv10rob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:26 pm Post subject: windows & fiberglass

Hi, Dave... sounds like you and I are at about the same point.  I'd read on here that Sikaflex wasn't a good choice because it requires a deep "bed" between the fiberglass and plexi, which the RV-10 design doesn't allow for, but I think some have used it anyway.  Some people glass over the joint to reduce the chances of cracking later, but it shouldn't be necessary to hide the adhesive, since that portion of the plexi will be painted.

   

 I need to do my windows sometime in the next month and am still undecided on what to use.  I like some of what I've heard about the FE6026, but it sounds like it's not as strong as the Weld-on.  I'll probably go with the weld-on if nothing changes between now and the time I need to do it.

   

 -Rob

 On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:36 PM, rvdave <davidbf(at)centurytel.net (davidbf(at)centurytel.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "rvdave" <davidbf(at)centurytel.net (davidbf(at)centurytel.net)>

 

Am at the point of doors, windows, and getting ready to attach plex to fiberglass.  I'm considering using sikaflex, West Marine has the sikaflex291, is this the one others are using, or is there another?  Also, is it common practice to glass over the window edge to cover the flange/plex bonding point so the adhesive can't be seen through the window?

 

--------

Dave Ford

RV6 flying

RV10 building

Cadillac, MI





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274728#274728

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 -=     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

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-- 

Rob Kochman

RV-10 "Finishing" Kit

Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)

http://kochman.net/N819K

  [quote][b]

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:44 am Post subject: windows & fiberglass

Dave,



There have been numerous threads on using or not using Weld On.  I decided

to not use Weld On, instead using Hysol (the product used by Lancair for

their windows). 

http://www.aerocraftparts.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=9360-QT&ReturnUrl=Categorie

s.aspx?Category=992b7b06-e01b-4918-bb0c-79343cdb7869

 

I know other builders have used standard fiberglass epoxy or Scotch-Weld

2216 epoxy (both with flox) with successful results.  I used the Scotch Weld

product for the control surfaces trailing edge and to install the Naca

ducts.  It is a good product.



Talking with other builders and looking at builder websites, here are some

tips I gathered:

1.  Have a good 1/16" gap between the edge of the glass and the fiberglass

opening (exterior of the plane).  This allows excess adhesive a place to

exit, and fills the gap as well.

2.  Mask off everything other than the mating surfaces.  I use the "10 rolls

for $3.99" Harbor Freight electrical tape for this as it leaves no residue

and can take some sandpaper hits.  For the masking on the edge where I'll do

glass trim work later I use two layers of tape.

3  Roughen the window and fiberglass mating surfaces with 60 grit paper.

4.  Apply a thin coat of adhesive to both mating surfaces.

5. Use a mixture of flox, Cab-O-Sil  and adhesive to coat the mating

surface.  The flox helps fill the voids and the Cab-O-Sil thickens the mix

so it does not run.  You may want to experiment first to get a mixture you

like. 

6.  For Hysol, let cure for a week before doing trim work.

7.  I've seen a few RV-10 with cracks around the window where filler was

used.  The ones I've seen with the window/fiberglass junction was first

covered with a bid or two of glass then faired in with filler did not have

cracks.  My end product will have glass/filler/paint covering the edge so

that you do not see through the window to the adhesive.



Many ways to do this - mine is but one.



Carl Froehlich

RV-8A (500 hrs)

RV-10 (systems install)



--

jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: windows & fiberglass

One of the big reasons to glass over the joint is to keep the paint from cracking there.  You're going to have a somewhat irregular space between the plexi and the fiberglass.  Most materials that you try to fill it with will expand and contract at different rates than the plexi and fiberglass and the paint will crack in that spot.  Glassing over that joint will keep that from happening, though it will make for a much messier event should you ever have to replace the plexi.



Jeff Carpenter

40304

Bonding with Lord Adhesive



On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:12 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi, Dave... sounds like you and I are at about the same point.  I'd read on here that Sikaflex wasn't a good choice because it requires a deep "bed" between the fiberglass and plexi, which the RV-10 design doesn't allow for, but I think some have used it anyway.  Some people glass over the joint to reduce the chances of cracking later, but it shouldn't be necessary to hide the adhesive, since that portion of the plexi will be painted.

  

 I need to do my windows sometime in the next month and am still undecided on what to use.  I like some of what I've heard about the FE6026, but it sounds like it's not as strong as the Weld-on.  I'll probably go with the weld-on if nothing changes between now and the time I need to do it.

  

 -Rob

 On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:36 PM, rvdave <davidbf(at)centurytel.net (davidbf(at)centurytel.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "rvdave" <davidbf(at)centurytel.net (davidbf(at)centurytel.net)>

 

Am at the point of doors, windows, and getting ready to attach plex to fiberglass.  I'm considering using sikaflex, West Marine has the sikaflex291, is this the one others are using, or is there another?  Also, is it common practice to glass over the window edge to cover the flange/plex bonding point so the adhesive can't be seen through the window?

 

--------

Dave Ford

RV6 flying

RV10 building

Cadillac, MI





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274728#274728

 ber is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on

 -=     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

 http:/r generous support!

 nics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============



	


-- 

Rob Kochman

RV-10 "Finishing" Kit

Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)

http://kochman.net/N819K

  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
	




 [quote][b]

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: windows & fiberglass

SIkaflex states that it needs a critical thickness to allow the material to not only adhere C but more importantly stretch as the plexi expands and contracts with thermal changes. The idea with SIkaflex it a floating bed. It is an excellent material but it really is not designed for this application. 

  

 A builder could make it work if one adds more fiberglass to the inside of the door area where the windows adhere. Then route out the outside of this joggle so the depth of the channel is deeper allowing the Sikafles to be the correct critical thickness.  Correct use would also mean allowing enough window gap around the perimeter so the window can expand without hitting the fiberglass door edge. 

  

 Sikaflex is paintable but the paint will crack under the expansions and contraction of the material in the gap. So it you us sikaflex correctly C you would also need to fabricate a slip joint with the fiberglass which bonds to the door and covers this gap. The fiberglass would bond to the fiberglass door C but not bond to the plexi C thus allowing the plexi to move under the fiberglass. With that said C the fiberglass would need to be pretty thick for obvious reason in addition it would need to withstand the bulging action of the Sikaflex in the gap as the plexi expands. 

  

 For those who do not appreciate how much plexi expands with thermal changes C trust me.

  

 Basically C sikaflex can be used correctly on the 10 but a lot of modification would need to be done to use it.

  

 If one does not do this C then it really is not being used correctly and long term success is an unknown

  

 The above method would be the best way to put in the windows instead of capturing the plexi in the fiberglass and distributing the expansion into the actual door...with that said C I used Weldon and hope that I do not allow the plane to heat up so much that my excellent fitting doors do not close because the door is warped when the plexi is hot/ or cold.

  

 John

 

  Date: Tue C 24 Nov 2009 23:12:43 -0800

Subject: Re: windows & fiberglass

From: rv10rob(at)gmail.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com



 Hi C Dave... sounds like you and I are at about the same point.  I'd read on here that Sikaflex wasn't a good choice because it requires a deep "bed" between the fiberglass and plexi C which the RV-10 design doesn't allow for C but I think some have used it anyway.  Some people glass over the joint to reduce the chances of cracking later C but it shouldn't be necessary to hide the adhesive C since that portion of the plexi will be painted.

  

 I need to do my windows sometime in the next month and am still undecided on what to use.  I like some of what I've heard about the FE6026 C but it sounds like it's not as strong as the Weld-on.  I'll probably go with the weld-on if nothing changes between now and the time I need to do it.

  

 -Rob

 On Tue C Nov 24 C 2009 at 9:36 PM C rvdave <davidbf(at)centurytel.net (davidbf(at)centurytel.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "rvdave" <davidbf(at)centurytel.net (davidbf(at)centurytel.net)>



Am at the point of doors C windows C and getting ready to attach plex to fiberglass.  I'm considering using sikaflex C West Marine has the sikaflex291 C is this the one others are using C or is there another?  Also C is it common practice to glass over the window edge to cover the flange/plex bonding point so the adhesive can't be seen through the window?



--------

Dave Ford

RV6 flying

RV10 building

Cadillac C MI





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274728#274728

ber is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on

-=     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

http:/r generous support!

nics List Features Navigator to browse

s.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

==============



	


-- 

Rob Kochman

RV-10 "Finishing" Kit

Woodinville C WA (near Seattle)

http://kochman.net/N819K

[quote]



lectric.com

/">www.buildersbooks.com

ebuilthelp.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution

ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ronics.com



[b]

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: windows & fiberglass

I had a post a month or two back about my experiences using the Lord adhesive recommended by Geoff Combs.  It worked really well on the door windows and is made for our application.



Michael



--

rvdave

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 191

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: windows & fiberglass

Sounds good, where can I get the Lord adhesive?

_________________
Dave Ford
Cadillac, MI

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: windows & fiberglass

Search the archives for the post, I had all the info in there.



Michael



--

rvdave

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 191

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: windows & fiberglass

Michael,



You made mention you had some Lord adhesive left over, do you still have any to sell?



Dave Ford

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: windows & fiberglass

Cabosil?  I'm getting ready to use this stuff despite the warnings but I 

didn't know you could used cabosil to thicken it.  Is that part of the 

directions for use?



Thanks.

johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Weld-on was the worst product I've ever used in my life. The warning label makes MEK look like mouthwash. .Respirator, goggles, and gloves are essential. It sets too fast and it's too runny. Cabosil helps but cuts into your set time. Once it's dry, you will have a devil of a time getting the unwanted droppings off. I used it on the side windows but decided to try Silpruf 2000 for the windshield. I like the results so far and it's safe to work with. I know Dave Saylor did his with Silpruf so maybe he can chime in.

 John



 --------

 #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &amp; Panel delivery soon.

 N711JG reserved





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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject: windows & fiberglass

Since I have weld-on in house, that's my plan including the glass over 

the joint.

do not archive



Bill

nukeflyboy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Why not use the weld-on?  It isn't that hard to work with and you don't have to research compatibility and strength.



 Plexi expands and contracts differently than the fiberglass and sometimes you see cracks in the painted finish around the windows.  A thin layer of glass over the joint and covering the overlap will help avoid the cracking in the paint.  Smooth it in with your favorite fill.



 --------

 Dave Moore

 RV-6 flying

 RV-10 QB - FWF





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