Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

IFR
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: IFR

Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.



do not archive



 Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

 

 



 [quote][b]

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: IFR

Jesse  

   

Congrats  

   

It is amazing the feeling the first time you put your head in the clouds by yourself for the first time,  I did that a few months after passing my insterment check ride on the way to Las Vegas the first of August never thought I would see ifr conditions in August on the way to Las Vegas from California.  

   

I just did 4 approaches in the Saratoga in the fog down to 200 and ½ vis.  During my IPC check man was that nerve racking.  

   

   

   

     

John G. Cumins  

  

40864 Emp Clecoed togeher final drilling.      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint

 Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:20 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: IFR  

  

  

   

Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.    

   

    

do not archive  

    

       

Jesse Saint  

    

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

    

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

    

Cell: 352-427-0285  

    

Fax: 815-377-3694  

  

  

   

   	  Quote: 	
		     	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  	
9

       [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: IFR

Big congrats to you...that's a huge accomplishment and now you've

earned the lower insurance besides.   You're right, it's a

plane that is just perfect for IFR X/C flights.  Glad

you're having a good time!



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after 

 passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the 

 extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform 

 for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.

 

 do not archive

 

 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694

 

 *

bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: IFR

Jesse that is awesome.  I think the IFR rating has to be the most rewarding and quite honestly the most fun.  I remember my first couple solo IFR flights after getting my ticket as well.  It seemed like such a mental game trying to shut off your brain from making you freak out…. “Oh gosh this is for real and I’m all by myself…”.  Plan the flight fly the plan that’s the key (developing a consistent scan doesn’t hurt either).  

   

John…  I would definitely agree with you on the 200 and ½ mile.  At some point when your in the soup below 400ft and down to DH at minimums I always tend to have that “this is crazy” though pop into my head for a brief second.  I do enjoy the challenges of actual IMC psychological or otherwise.  Unfortunately I don’t fly enough during the build to even consider IFR.  Looking forward to one day getting back into the swing of it behind our technically advanced sleds!!  It seems light years ahead of the six packs I’ve only ever flown actual with.  

   

-Ben Westfall  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint

 Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:20 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: IFR  

  

   

Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.    

   

    

do not archive  

    

       

Jesse Saint  

    

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

    

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

    

Cell: 352-427-0285  

    

Fax: 815-377-3694  

  

    

   

  

       [quote][b]

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: IFR

Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 

 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who 

 need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable 

 platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a 

 good IFR GPS.



 do not archive

Congratulations!  Encouragement barely needed but welcome.
	




I've done all my IFR in the Maule sans AP.  Turned out the first 

requirement for flight was having a well organized knee board and flight 

bag.  Five seconds of inattention and it all goes down hill.  But it was 

all worth the ability to just get there, when you want to, most of the time.



Now that I'm not staying current, I miss flying in the system.  Flying a 

plan in the system is the easyest way to fly cc independent of weather - 

even on those flights where canceling is the best way to complete the 

flight.



Looking forward to the '10 with AP, syn vision, WAAS, and some excess 

hp.  Wheeee!



Bill

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: IFR

This brings up another question.  What are people using for "personal minimums"?  Some I've talked to say they'll go if they have circling minimums.  Others say 1,000 feet.  Some say that with family they will only go if their destination is VFR.  I felt comfortable shooting the approach when the METAR was MVFR.  I would certainly feel comfortable lower with another pilot than I would solo.  This pole, at least for my info, would be single pilot IFR with an autopilot (just for conversation, say it's an autopilot with GPS Nav or Steering and Altitude Hold, but no coupling, so the equivalent of the Digiflight II non-V).

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Big congrats to you...that's a huge accomplishment and now you've

 earned the lower insurance besides.   You're right, it's a

 plane that is just perfect for IFR X/C flights.  Glad

 you're having a good time!

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

 Jesse Saint wrote:

> Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.

> do not archive

> Jesse Saint

> Saint Aviation, Inc.

> jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

> Cell: 352-427-0285

> Fax: 815-377-3694

> *

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: IFR

Do what you are comfortable with. Start with something like 200 or 400 

ft above minimums and adjust as you gain experience. One 

caution...having another pilot along is actually a detriment unless you 

have practiced flying together and coordinating cockpit resource 

management. Otherwise neither one knows what to expect and who should be 

responsible, whether to speak up or not if not comfortable with what 

other pilot is doing. Also, practice to keep nav needle(s) as tight to 

centered as you can, don't accept one dot out for any length of 

time..don't chase it, just stop movement and slowly correct back to 

center. Of course GPS course is tighter and if you want, you could 

purposely fly one dot right enroute, to avoid being dead center on 

airway with someone else, just go back to centered as soon as you 

transition to approach plate.

Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 This brings up another question.  What are people using for "personal minimums"?  Some I've talked to say they'll go if they have circling minimums.  Others say 1,000 feet.  Some say that with family they will only go if their destination is VFR.  I felt comfortable shooting the approach when the METAR was MVFR.  I would certainly feel comfortable lower with another pilot than I would solo.  This pole, at least for my info, would be single pilot IFR with an autopilot (just for conversation, say it's an autopilot with GPS Nav or Steering and Altitude Hold, but no coupling, so the equivalent of the Digiflight II non-V).

 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694

 On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

> 

>

> Big congrats to you...that's a huge accomplishment and now you've

> earned the lower insurance besides.   You're right, it's a

> plane that is just perfect for IFR X/C flights.  Glad

> you're having a good time!

>

> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

> do not archive

> Jesse Saint wrote:

>> Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.

>> do not archive

>> Jesse Saint

>> Saint Aviation, Inc.

>> jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

>> Cell: 352-427-0285

>> Fax: 815-377-3694

>> *

>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: IFR

I would only base minimums on personal currency.  If you are properly 

trained and comfortable with your currency than I would go to minimums.  If 

there are two pilots, one of the pilots should be comfortable alone doing 

the approach unless both of you are used to a two crew environment.  Also, 

if you are flying with two crew and relying on the other pilot you should 

both brief the approaches and know who does what function.  There are 

accidents from pilots feeing more confident with two pilots even though they 

both have gone without flying IFR approaches for awhile. I would have a 

competent safety pilot flying right seat, not just a body.

I fly a Citation, single pilot, for a living.  It is amazing how fast you 

can lose your IFR skills if you don't fly very often.

---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: IFR

I agree with Kelly, you do what you're comfortable with.  Also,

it depends on the weather.  I don't feel bad going to minimums

if the rest of the weather isn't horrible, (i.e. not tons of

wind and turbulence), but if it were going to be heavy rain

or something like that, I would either use higher minimums

or maybe not shoot the approach at all.  With heavy rain is

often thunderstorms.  So minimums would vary from day to day.

This time of year I am much more conservative too, because

up here it's icing all over the place.  I like to know

I either have a very thin layer to go through, or lots of

clear sky underneath, because I really don't want to do a

whole approach where I have to descend 6,000' through

clouds with icing potential. (not known icing...potential icing..

we shouldn't fly at all in known icing but any cloud near/below

freezing is potential icing)



I agree too that while another pilot makes you feel comfortable,

some of the most F-'d up situations I've been in while IFR

were with other pilots.  If you have one that only does

minimal and helpful things, like monitor your horizon, and

maybe hold things and open charts, great. Too much help isn't

always good unless it's quality help.



So minimums are a very flexible thing.  In general, if I'm

up to par in "comfort" from recent practice, I don't mind

going down to minimums.  Otherwise it's nice to have at

least 100'-200' of added padding in there, and in certain

situations much more.  On a turbulent windy day, I may

choose an alternate if I can't get within 300' of minimums.

It all depends.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Do what you are comfortable with. Start with something like 200 or 400 

 ft above minimums and adjust as you gain experience. One 

 caution...having another pilot along is actually a detriment unless you 

 have practiced flying together and coordinating cockpit resource 

 management. Otherwise neither one knows what to expect and who should be 

 responsible, whether to speak up or not if not comfortable with what 

 other pilot is doing. Also, practice to keep nav needle(s) as tight to 

 centered as you can, don't accept one dot out for any length of 

 time..don't chase it, just stop movement and slowly correct back to 

 center. Of course GPS course is tighter and if you want, you could 

 purposely fly one dot right enroute, to avoid being dead center on 

 airway with someone else, just go back to centered as soon as you 

 transition to approach plate.

 

 Jesse Saint wrote:

> 

>

> This brings up another question.  What are people using for "personal 

> minimums"?  Some I've talked to say they'll go if they have circling 

> minimums.  Others say 1,000 feet.  Some say that with family they will 

> only go if their destination is VFR.  I felt comfortable shooting the 

> approach when the METAR was MVFR.  I would certainly feel comfortable 

> lower with another pilot than I would solo.  This pole, at least for 

> my info, would be single pilot IFR with an autopilot (just for 

> conversation, say it's an autopilot with GPS Nav or Steering and 

> Altitude Hold, but no coupling, so the equivalent of the Digiflight II 

> non-V).

>

> Jesse Saint

> Saint Aviation, Inc.

> jesse(at)saintaviation.com

> Cell: 352-427-0285

> Fax: 815-377-3694

>

> On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Big congrats to you...that's a huge accomplishment and now you've

>> earned the lower insurance besides.   You're right, it's a

>> plane that is just perfect for IFR X/C flights.  Glad

>> you're having a good time!

>>

>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

>> do not archive

>>

>>

>> Jesse Saint wrote:

>>> Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 

>>> (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those 

>>> who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly 

>>> stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot 

>>> driven by a good IFR GPS.

>>> do not archive

>>> Jesse Saint

>>> Saint Aviation, Inc.

>>> jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

>>> Cell: 352-427-0285

>>> Fax: 815-377-3694

>>> *

>>

>>

>>

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: IFR

Interesting feedback from all.  I was actually expecting much more conservative/cautious responses.  All of the local pilots I talked to say something like, "I only go if I have circling minimums at origin and destination" or "my minimum is 1,000 AGL".  I realize it depends a great deal on currency as well as equipment.  For example, in an RV-10 with a Sorcerer auto pilot driven by a GNS-430W, I would feel comfortable shooting an approach to minimums if I have Troy (pilot friend who I trained along side) with me.  I would go for minimums plus 100-200 alone.  With a Dynon auto-pilot, I would go minimums plus 200 with Troy and probably circling to 1,000 alone.  In the Archer with GPSS and Altitude Hold and steam gauges, I would go the same as the RV-10 with a Dynon.  In the C-172 with minimum IFR instrumentation, I would probably be hesitant to even do any IFR enroute, but would definitely want MVFR or VFR at the origin and destination.

Also, having in-flight weather (496, 696, etc) is almost an absolute personal requirement.  My hat goes off to those of you who used to fly IFR X-Country with nothing but VOR's and ADF (what is that anyway).

I do completely agree that a second pilot does not necessarily make you safer.  I was referring to a second pilot who I have flown with a lot.  Someone who just helps watch altitudes, calls out when out of clouds, tunes radios if I ask him to (not otherwise), etc.  It doesn't have to be a pilot necessarily, but needs to be someone I am comfortable getting added information from.  It sure is nice to be able to fly the airplane and have someone else pull up a plate or tune in an ATIS or something like that.

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I agree with Kelly, you do what you're comfortable with.  Also,

 it depends on the weather.  I don't feel bad going to minimums

 if the rest of the weather isn't horrible, (i.e. not tons of

 wind and turbulence), but if it were going to be heavy rain

 or something like that, I would either use higher minimums

 or maybe not shoot the approach at all.  With heavy rain is

 often thunderstorms.  So minimums would vary from day to day.

 This time of year I am much more conservative too, because

 up here it's icing all over the place.  I like to know

 I either have a very thin layer to go through, or lots of

 clear sky underneath, because I really don't want to do a

 whole approach where I have to descend 6,000' through

 clouds with icing potential. (not known icing...potential icing..

 we shouldn't fly at all in known icing but any cloud near/below

 freezing is potential icing)

 I agree too that while another pilot makes you feel comfortable,

 some of the most F-'d up situations I've been in while IFR

 were with other pilots.  If you have one that only does

 minimal and helpful things, like monitor your horizon, and

 maybe hold things and open charts, great. Too much help isn't

 always good unless it's quality help.

 So minimums are a very flexible thing.  In general, if I'm

 up to par in "comfort" from recent practice, I don't mind

 going down to minimums.  Otherwise it's nice to have at

 least 100'-200' of added padding in there, and in certain

 situations much more.  On a turbulent windy day, I may

 choose an alternate if I can't get within 300' of minimums.

 It all depends.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

 Kelly McMullen wrote:

> 

> Do what you are comfortable with. Start with something like 200 or 400 ft above minimums and adjust as you gain experience. One caution...having another pilot along is actually a detriment unless you have practiced flying together and coordinating cockpit resource management. Otherwise neither one knows what to expect and who should be responsible, whether to speak up or not if not comfortable with what other pilot is doing. Also, practice to keep nav needle(s) as tight to centered as you can, don't accept one dot out for any length of time..don't chase it, just stop movement and slowly correct back to center. Of course GPS course is tighter and if you want, you could purposely fly one dot right enroute, to avoid being dead center on airway with someone else, just go back to centered as soon as you transition to approach plate.

> Jesse Saint wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> This brings up another question.  What are people using for "personal minimums"?  Some I've talked to say they'll go if they have circling minimums.  Others say 1,000 feet.  Some say that with family they will only go if their destination is VFR.  I felt comfortable shooting the approach when the METAR was MVFR.  I would certainly feel comfortable lower with another pilot than I would solo.  This pole, at least for my info, would be single pilot IFR with an autopilot (just for conversation, say it's an autopilot with GPS Nav or Steering and Altitude Hold, but no coupling, so the equivalent of the Digiflight II non-V).

>> 

>> Jesse Saint

>> Saint Aviation, Inc.

>> jesse(at)saintaviation.com

>> Cell: 352-427-0285

>> Fax: 815-377-3694

>> 

>> On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Big congrats to you...that's a huge accomplishment and now you've

>>> earned the lower insurance besides.   You're right, it's a

>>> plane that is just perfect for IFR X/C flights.  Glad

>>> you're having a good time!

>>> 

>>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

>>> do not archive

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Jesse Saint wrote:

>>>> Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.

>>>> do not archive

>>>> Jesse Saint

>>>> Saint Aviation, Inc.

>>>> jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

>>>> Cell: 352-427-0285

>>>> Fax: 815-377-3694

>>>> *

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: IFR

When I started flying IFR in IMC (1979) alternate minimums must be forecast

for the destiniation and of course the alternate. I was hand flying a

C177RG; autopilot was INOP (never worked from new). I now use published

minimums but I don't accept ice enroute (perhaps a little on IMC climb out

or on IMC approach to assured landing). Also I an more inclined to go to

minimums by myself than with any non pilot passengers. Of course now its

easy with the Cheltons, GPS and VSGV. Back then it was dual VORs, single GS

and Strikefinder and hand flying. 

--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: IFR

Personally, I never managed to establish 'personal minimums'.  So many 

variables.  How proficient I was at a given point in time played a large 

role.  The FAA requirements are minimal.  Flying a couple of meaningful 

flights earlier in the same day = real proficiency.



Flying privately, one has total control and mainly has to manage "get 

there-itis".  No small feat.  Especially with passengers.  Especially 

with fellow pilots.  Perceived pressure, internal pressure, and the 

distraction factor all play parts.  The trick is to eliminate most of it 

and recognize distractions for what they are and manage them.  My best 

aid is an experienced life partner who almost always flies shotgun.



Variables - approach to minimums in a stable or lifting situation with 

easy alternates is one thing.  An evening approach to minimums where you 

know from experience that  it may change to  an unforecast ground fog at 

any moment at any airport within 200 miles is another.



Familiarity - doing the procedure at your home 'port is a lot easier 

than a first one at a new 'port.  When you know the next freq before 

told and the probable vector before given, it's all easier.  Doing it in 

your personal aircraft versus a rental - Heaven!



Departures vs Approaches - We tend to focus on and talk about 

"approaches to minimums".  But approaches always occur after you've had 

a chance to fully adjust the sound and feel of flight.  One of the 

toughest things I discovered is departures into IMC, especially if it's 

the first flight of the day/week/month.     One day I did 2 VMC takeoffs 

after a duct tape patch to some scat tubing.  The third takeoff was into 

a 500' ceiling for a 100% IMC flight of 1.5 hours.  As soon as I lifted 

off I smelled smoke and then it sounded like a cylinder was slightly 

missing.  I later concluded that the cylinder was just "over water 

roughness" and the 'smoke' was the smell that was there on takeoffs 1 

and 2 and 4 and 5 and 6... that is, until the duct tape patch stopped 

smelling.  I only noticed it because of the IMC departure.  Just nerves.



Bill "can't wait for an autopilot" Watson



Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This brings up another question.  What are people using for "personal minimums"?  Some I've talked to say they'll go if they have circling minimums.  Others say 1,000 feet.  Some say that with family they will only go if their destination is VFR.  I felt comfortable shooting the approach when the METAR was MVFR.  I would certainly feel comfortable lower with another pilot than I would solo.  This pole, at least for my info, would be single pilot IFR with an autopilot (just for conversation, say it's an autopilot with GPS Nav or Steering and Altitude Hold, but no coupling, so the equivalent of the Digiflight II non-V).



 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694



 On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: IFR

When I was polishing for my IFR checkride I had a scary experience (in

IMC - partial panel) where the airplane turned 180 degrees without being

noticed by me or my instructor.  ATC finally came on the radio to check

on us about the time I realized we were headed the opposite direction.

I was pretty confident in the clouds up until that point, but that one

experience absolutely destroyed any confidence I had and soured any

desire to challenge myself in the clouds.  For me the scariest part is

that I was probably as proficient as I'll ever be at the time I was

polishing for the real checkride.



At that moment, I realized I will always fly in real IMC with a good

autopilot and practice all other procedures by hand flying the airplane

to maintain proficiency.  I'm not a professional pilot who flies in the

clouds every week and I don't pretend to be one.  So I'm not embarrassed

to admit the use of the autopilot, avoiding hand flying, and doing what

I can to make the flight safer.



When it comes to minimums, I'll go with 700' to a precision approach and

1000' to a non-precision approach.  (Reference my scary experience above

and it correlates to my conservative minimums.)  This allows some room

if the forecast is completely wrong.  It also allows some margin in the

event there are autopilot issues and I may not be flying an absolutely

perfect approach setup to hit the MAP at minimums.



Once the -10 is up and running, I really expect those minimums to drop

since it will be easier for me to stay current.  But I'll always have a

lot of respect for the clouds.



By the way, my RV-10 will have a Sorcerer auto-pilot.  You can buy an

engine that's overkill and you can buy a panel that's overkill -but you

just can't buy an autopilot that's overkill.  It's impossible.  



Phil "Fraidy Cat" Perry

(I did that for you Bill)

--

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: IFR

Always be ready for the autopilot failing at the worst moment. Flight Safety 

loves to fail the a/p at a crucial moment when you are doing recurrent in 

the sim. and it can happen in the plane.  I have had mine fail by turning 

early on a gps approach in the clouds.



---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: IFR

Your attitude is a good one.  I've had my scary experiences

during training too.  Luckily nothing too awful since, but

I've been well "put in my place" by IFR flying, so I've

developed that healthy respect that keeps you alive. (hopefully)



The Autopilot is essential. Ya ya ya, you should be able

to hand fly.  Fine, we all know that.  But, when you

get task loaded, nothing helps more than hitting a couple

buttons until you can get your head together. You can't

blindly trust the autopilot, either, but it really should

be a requirement IMHO for single-pilot ops, to have one

on board that works.  At least when ceilings are lower

than VFR.  When I got my IFR ticket I don't think I had

an AP in the plane, but it was my first purchase before

I'd take the family in IMC.  At the time, I spent $5-7000

for an S-Tec and it was money well spent. The TruTrak

is far nicer.



Those minimums aren't bad at all. It shows a good respect

for how bad things can go. And, your point about

improving or worsening weather is very good too.

Also relevant is your proximity to better conditions.

If you can fly 50 miles and have 1000' ceilings, or

do an approach where you are to 400', you at least

have good options.



Equipment wise, and I'm sure I'll be beat up for this, I

really think that the equipment in the panel adds to

the safety aspect. You really NEED to be good at knowing

where you are by looking at some needles, but it really

takes workload off if you have a working EFIS with

moving map and a fully depicted approach. In my case,

it also has HITS.  I find that it's infinitely more

relaxing to fly an approach with the equipment installed,

as it was to fly the old way.  Should you rely on it?

No, of course not, but I'll tell you what... I'll fly

approaches using my full EFIS/AP setup that I wouldn't

fly if it were INOP.  If I'm flying around x/c IMC

and I lose my 3 EFIS's (or is that EFii?)

(not likely but sure possible) I would probably not

keep the same destination as I would if I had the

equipment.  Why should you have to?  Myself, I'd make

sure I knew where the WX was better, and I'd try to

make a reasonable re-route to a good airport with a full

ILS, and get on the ground a.s.a.p. if I can find an

airport with > 1000' ceilings nearby.  Luckily with the

RV-10, miles go by so fast that it's probably easy to do

most of the time.  Sure, I could continue and fly on my

backups (which are still far better than what I had when

I was flying all round gauges), but I would choose safety

first and go to a good or preferrably VFR destination if

I have a good option.



If you get decked out with a good panel and that AP

you love, and you stay current, your feelings on

minimums will probably change slowly over time. But your

worry then should be on what you'll do when THAT stuff

doesn't work...because that's where you'll get bit.

By using your head, you can make good decisions.



Regarding the sorcerer...it's a great AP, but not always

necessary, depending on your other equipment.  In my case

I get 99% of the functionality, but it's managed by

the EFIS.  The sorcerer is nicer though, in that it's better

if you lose your EFIS.  So it's a good choice.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD



Perry, Phil wrote:

[quote] 

 

 When I was polishing for my IFR checkride I had a scary experience (in

 IMC - partial panel) where the airplane turned 180 degrees without being

 noticed by me or my instructor.  ATC finally came on the radio to check

 on us about the time I realized we were headed the opposite direction.

 I was pretty confident in the clouds up until that point, but that one

 experience absolutely destroyed any confidence I had and soured any

 desire to challenge myself in the clouds.  For me the scariest part is

 that I was probably as proficient as I'll ever be at the time I was

 polishing for the real checkride.

 

 At that moment, I realized I will always fly in real IMC with a good

 autopilot and practice all other procedures by hand flying the airplane

 to maintain proficiency.  I'm not a professional pilot who flies in the

 clouds every week and I don't pretend to be one.  So I'm not embarrassed

 to admit the use of the autopilot, avoiding hand flying, and doing what

 I can to make the flight safer.

 

 When it comes to minimums, I'll go with 700' to a precision approach and

 1000' to a non-precision approach.  (Reference my scary experience above

 and it correlates to my conservative minimums.)  This allows some room

 if the forecast is completely wrong.  It also allows some margin in the

 event there are autopilot issues and I may not be flying an absolutely

 perfect approach setup to hit the MAP at minimums.

 

 Once the -10 is up and running, I really expect those minimums to drop

 since it will be easier for me to stay current.  But I'll always have a

 lot of respect for the clouds.

 

 By the way, my RV-10 will have a Sorcerer auto-pilot.  You can buy an

 engine that's overkill and you can buy a panel that's overkill -but you

 just can't buy an autopilot that's overkill.  It's impossible.  

 

 Phil "Fraidy Cat" Perry

 (I did that for you Bill)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 --

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: IFR

My personal minimum is the same as the published minimum.  Then I immediately go to my alternate.  If an approach looks close, I will give greater consideration to my alternate on planning.  I never understood personal minimums when applied to approaches.  Fly the approach FULLY as published.  Then if you don't see the runway, go missed and fly to your alternate. 

 My plan is if the weather looks close at my destination airport and that airport does not have an ILS, I look for an alternate with an ILS.  Then I make one approach at my destination flying the approach FULLY.  If it does not work out, I fly to my alternate.

 On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>

This brings up another question.  What are people using for "personal minimums"?  Some I've talked to say they'll go if they have circling minimums.  Others say 1,000 feet.  Some say that with family they will only go if their destination is VFR.  I felt comfortable shooting the approach when the METAR was MVFR.  I would certainly feel comfortable lower with another pilot than I would solo.  This pole, at least for my info, would be single pilot IFR with an autopilot (just for conversation, say it's an autopilot with GPS Nav or Steering and Altitude Hold, but no coupling, so the equivalent of the Digiflight II non-V).

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

 Big congrats to you...that's a huge accomplishment and now you've

 earned the lower insurance besides.   You're right, it's a

 > plane that is just perfect for IFR X/C flights.  Glad

 	  Quote: 	
		   you're having a good time!

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

 >

 	  Quote: 	

 Jesse Saint wrote:

> Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.

 >> do not archive

 >> Jesse Saint

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Saint Aviation, Inc.

 	  Quote: 	
		  > jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com) <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>

  >> Cell: 352-427-0285

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Fax: 815-377-3694

 >> *

 	  Quote: 	

-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

[b]

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: IFR

Good point, Tim...



One of my other rules is max fuel for IFR...  It's really cheap

incremental insurance that you get 100% back if you don't use.  



Phil



--

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: IFR

One of the five extra requirements to fly the Citation single pilot is a 

working A/P before takeoff.



---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: IFR

Yeah, I use that theory for most flights....why not go

full fuel if you can avoid a hefty price at least.

There is so much excess power that it doesn't pay to

do the "fill to the tabs" thing unless you're really

carrying some heavy loads.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Perry, Phil wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Good point, Tim...

 

 One of my other rules is max fuel for IFR...  It's really cheap

 incremental insurance that you get 100% back if you don't use.  

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 --

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: IFR

I did 100% of my IMC flying without an AP but I probably won't do 

anymore intentionally. 

I agree it should be considered required for us non-pros.  Not because 

we are amateurs

but because most of us don't fly enough to stay truly proficient with 

those kinds of operations.



I know I can hand fly a simple, slow, draggy Maule in 'hard' turbulent 

IMC at a time when

I flew and filed practically EVERY week.  It's nice to know I can do it, 

but I'm probably done with it.

I'm sure those freight dog types  could do it safely all day long. It's 

called work.



I'd give a lot for a mission and the $$ to fly every week again!



 Bill "never learned to fly to ATP standards on purpose" Watson



Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The Autopilot is essential. Ya ya ya, you should be able

 to hand fly.  Fine, we all know that.  But, when you

 get task loaded, nothing helps more than hitting a couple

 buttons until you can get your head together. You can't

 blindly trust the autopilot, either, but it really should

 be a requirement IMHO for single-pilot ops, to have one

 on board that works.  At least when ceilings are lower

 than VFR.  When I got my IFR ticket I don't think I had

 an AP in the plane, but it was my first purchase before

 I'd take the family in IMC.  At the time, I spent $5-7000

 for an S-Tec and it was money well spent. The TruTrak

 is far nicer.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Page 1 of 4

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum