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z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:06 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

Has anyone noticed that, in Sebastian's blog on Zenith.aero, they jumped from 

starting to work on the fuselage mods, to doing the second wing? It's been a 

week since the last post on working on the fuselage.



That was followed by a post on using a right angle drill. The photos were of 

working on the wing, not the fuselage. It seemed a bit out of sequence at the 

time, but now it sounds as though they suddenly couldn't post anything on the 

fuselage mode, and wanted to get something posted before the holiday. 



It makes me wonder if they've stumbled onto a problem on the fuselage mod, 

perhaps in the center spar. I sure hope not, both for their sake and mine!

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

I also noticed that "one wing is finished", but they have done nothing about aileron balance.

 

   

 

   

 

  --

z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 15:57, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    I also noticed that "one wing is finished", but they have done nothing

 about aileron balance.


	


In a word, yup. The LAA aileron balance seems to have been doable, since 

they're been doing it in the UK. But there may have been a better way.



Problem is, if Zenith doesn't follow LAA's lead, and comes up with another 

way, where does this put UK owners if the LAA decides everything else Zenith 

did is wonderful.



-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

Can't comment on the why's wrt Zenith's video order, but AMD doesn't seem to

be having any issues with the carry-through and fuselage.



--

Rickey B.

Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 70

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

       Boy! Might this just be another fine kettle of fish!!  

                                                Rick  

                                Soon to destroy a fine paint job!!  

   

   

                Do not archive.    

   

   

   

I also noticed that "one wing is finished", but they have done nothing about aileron balance.  

    

   

    

From: Jim Belcher   

   

  

      [quote][b]

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: fuselage mods

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:17, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I would imagine that one would need both wings complete (at least at the

 root doubler stage) and the center spar out so that the upgraded center

 spar could be mated to the wing spars during final assembly and before

 being re-set in the fuselage.


	


An interesting thought, and it complements Doug.Norman's idea. I wonder if 

this implies we must somehow check our modified center spar against our wing 

spars?

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

Again, AMD has done, and is doing, the LAA aileron mass balance. Saw it on a airplane when I brought my airplane to AMD for its mods. Since AMD, Zenith, and Zenair are in close contact with one another, I suspect that the suspicion is an overreaction.



--

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

Certainly makes sense to me, Jim. I'd much rather insure that everything lines up outside of the fuselage, than wait until the spar is back in to discover that the alignment is off.



My gut says that Zenith is learning quite a bit along the way, and I'm very happy to let them make all these discoveries first. They're much better at this than I am, Gundga Din.



Rick Lindstrom

ZenVair N42KP

--

z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:41, Doug - SportAviation wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Again, AMD has done, and is doing, the LAA aileron mass balance. Saw it on

 a airplane when I brought my airplane to AMD for its mods. Since AMD,

 Zenith, and Zenair are in close contact with one another, I suspect that

 the suspicion is an overreaction.


	


Thanks for the insight. I'm afraid the situation lends itself to over 

reaction, which is unfortunate.

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:49, Rick Lindstrom wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>



 Certainly makes sense to me, Jim. I'd much rather insure that everything

 lines up outside of the fuselage, than wait until the spar is back in to

 discover that the alignment is off.



 My gut says that Zenith is learning quite a bit along the way, and I'm very

 happy to let them make all these discoveries first. They're much better at

 this than I am, Gundga Din.


	




I'm glad to let them learn also, Rick. But it would require modifying the 

wings first, I think. That, in my case, is so inconvenient as to be very near 

to impossible. I hope this is not true. 



I had to store my wings vertically on a stand to make room for the fuselage. 

With the fuselage roughly half assembled, it is going to be extremely 

challenging to find a place for it so I can set the wings anywhere for a mod. 



I'd bet I'm not the only one who could have this problem, so hopefully, there 

will be a work-around available, assuming all this train of thought is not 

another over reaction. I'm probably borrowing from tomorrow's problems, but I 

have a fear (justified in this case, I think) of nasty surprises.

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

sperry50(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

I bought a "quick-build" kit because I did not feel I had the time to put

into doing it any other way. I am not a happy man looking at the thought of

opening my fuselage that I paid to have assembled and start doing work on

it. I don't fear the wings too much since I did do all of the riveting but

the thought of the fuselage gets me really in a bad mood. At this point I am

not sure whether I just want to recover my cost of engine/electronics and

say the hell with it or what. One thing for sure, I don't think I will ever

recommend a Zenith to anyone, not even my worst enemy.



--

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

zenith is having a problem trying to figure a way to re rivet the uprights  in and the rivets along the cabin floor. I know some have had to rivet their up  rights at or near the bend and if this is you you are not gonna like the fix for  it. I have decided to take the side skins off and re drill all the holes except  for the uprights then have the skin repainted. Then my uprights will have nice  fresh holes. I am also going to beef up the side skin to .035 and if the rivets  on the belly don't work out I will make that skin .040.

  

 I don't want a patch job on my airplane and the extra work will pay  off in the end.

  

  

 Jeff

  [quote][b]

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

Hi Sabrina,



Finally, someone asked a question I can answer ! !



The FAA and Zenith mods only apply to planes in the USA.  The LAA 

mods only apply to planes in the UK.



If I remember correctly, Chris mentioned in his Q&A that only US 

planes needed updating.  That doesn't keep anyone else from doing the 

changes (which I hope they do).  It is all just a bunch of 

nationalistic politics.



Paul

XL upgrade kit ordered

At 01:50 PM 12/2/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Problem is, if Zenith doesn't follow LAA's lead, and comes up with another

way, where does this put UK owners if the LAA decides everything else Zenith

did is wonderful.

jonbateman(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

I also was wondering why they had switched from the center section. My thought was that they are trying to keep people from jumping the gun as they did with the wings where some builders now have to upgrade their upgrades from the draft prints to final prints. 

   Jon

  From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com

Date: Wed C 2 Dec 2009 18:36:51 -0500

Subject: Re: Re: fuselage mods

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 zenith is having a problem trying to figure a way to re rivet the uprights in and the rivets along the cabin floor. I know some have had to rivet their up rights at or near the bend and if this is you you are not gonna like the fix for it. I have decided to take the side skins off and re drill all the holes except for the uprights then have the skin repainted. Then my uprights will have nice fresh holes. I am also going to beef up the side skin to .035 and if the rivets on the belly don't work out I will make that skin .040.

 I don't want a patch job on my airplane and the extra work will pay off in the end.

 Jeff

 	  Quote: 	

lectric.com

/">www.buildersbooks.com

ebuilthelp.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

ronics.com

 		 	   		  Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.  [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: fuselage mods

Hello Jim,

  

 I will rather wait with patience for the Best and Correct  Upgrade Kit!

  

 Sincerly I know they will SOON come out with "The Correct Kit". 

  

 Only the ones that like me, have made mods to a set of planes (others plans built, not Zenith's)  know how a modifications adds some not spected "working hours" to the normal building process...   

  

 They (at ZAC) also are HUMANS like you and me.  Better in design and building, but humans finally...  Givce them a (little) break PLEASE:

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 Flying from Chapala, Mexico.

 601XL  Jab 3300   PATIENTLY wating for the Upgrade Kit.

 Doing some work in other areas of the airplane... and typing in the computer 



--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Jim Belcher <z601b(at)anemicaardvark.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Jim Belcher <z601b(at)anemicaardvark.com>

Subject: fuselage mods

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 3:49 PM



 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim Belcher <z601b(at)anemicaardvark.com (z601b(at)anemicaardvark.com)>



Has anyone noticed that, in Sebastian's blog on Zenith.aero, they jumped from 

starting to work on the fuselage mods, to doing the second wing? It's been a 

week since the last post on working on the fuselage.



That was followed by a post on using a right angle drill. The photos were of 

working on the wing, not the fuselage. It seemed a bit out of sequence at the 

time, but now it sounds as though they suddenly couldn't post anything on the 

fuselage mode, and wanted to get something posted before the holiday. 



It makes me wonder if they've stumbled onto a problem on the fuselage mod, 

perhaps in the center spar. I sure hope not, both for their sake and mine!

--  

=============================================

                Do not archive.

====================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

===================p;          (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!r.  Click http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronicsp;                   -Matt Drae vigator?Zenith-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenbsp;            - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -=====





	


         [quote][b]

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: fuselage mods

I hear you, Jim. I'm really sorry that this has created such a logistical nightmare for you. We tend to forget that there are so many different scenarios where building is concerned, from shops to hangars to garages to dining room tables.



I really hope that Zenith has some work around that will allow you to proceed without too much discomfort.



--

z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:18 am Post subject: fuselage mods

On Thursday 03 December 2009 02:09, Rick Lindstrom wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I hear you, Jim. I'm really sorry that this has created such a logistical

 nightmare for you. We tend to forget that there are so many different

 scenarios where building is concerned, from shops to hangars to garages to

 dining room tables.


	


Thanks, Rick. I'm not sure what I'll do, but I'm too old and cranky to give up 

this easy. 



I slept on it last night - maybe I'll come up with something. I really feel 

for the folks with dining room tables. I'm at least in a shop, even if it is 

full of other things.

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

Thruster87

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 193
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: Re: fuselage mods

[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]zenith is having a problem trying to figure a way to re rivet the uprights  in and the rivets along the cabin floor. I know some have had to rivet their up  rights at or near the bend and if this is you you are not gonna like the fix for  it. I have decided to take the side skins off and re drill all the holes except  for the uprights then have the skin repainted. Then my uprights will have nice  fresh holes. I am also going to beef up the side skin to .035 and if the rivets  on the belly don't work out I will make that skin .040.

  

 I don't want a patch job on my airplane and the extra work will pay  off in the end.

  

  

 Jeff

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	
The floor rivets line up on mine OK as I decided to replace the whole structure with a new .063" center spar.Haven't got to the uprights but one solution may be to use 4130 of the correct thickness which can be  bent with a smaller radius.I also did the pre-fixing /hole lining   up while the wings are still off to the new center spar.Cheers

601RX

Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 8
Location: AL

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: fuselage mods

[quote="Thruster87"] 	  Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  zenith is having a problem trying to figure a way to re rivet the uprights  in and the rivets along the cabin floor. I know some have had to rivet their up  rights at or near the bend and if this is you you are not gonna like the fix for  it. I have decided to take the side skins off and re drill all the holes except  for the uprights then have the skin repainted. Then my uprights will have nice  fresh holes. I am also going to beef up the side skin to .035 and if the rivets  on the belly don't work out I will make that skin .040.

  

 I don't want a patch job on my airplane and the extra work will pay  off in the end.

  

  

 Jeff

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	
The floor rivets line up on mine OK as I decided to replace the whole structure with a new .063" center spar.Haven't got to the uprights but one solution may be to use 4130 of the correct thickness which can be  bent with a smaller radius.I also did the pre-fixing /hole lining   up while the wings are still off to the new center spar.Cheers 	


One way around this is to remove the .25*1.5 bars from the inside of center section and place them on the outside.  This will allow the front part of the center spar to be moved back enough that there is plenty of room for the rivets.  They will need shims under them so they can still overlap the front upwrights.



Another similiar option is to remove them from the inside and replace them with .125 *1.5 material.  Then put the .25 bars back on the outside.  This way the original rivet holes will line up perfectly.



Mike

________

[URL=http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mazda_B-Series_(North_America)]B-Series (North America)[/URL]

Last edited by 601RX on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total

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