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kenrichter(at)centurytel.
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

is there anyone on the list with a Subaru engine in  a model 3 I would like to hear how this engine performs on a model 3 ,also has  anyone shortened the wings on a model 3 like the speedster Idon't see why it  coudn't be done.

  

 Thanks Ken Richter

 model 3 582  

   [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Ken, I have a model 5 with a Subaru and it works  fine, but it's heavy.  The model 3, IMO, is not enough airplane for the  Subaru.  You would have to add a lot of ballast to the tail to keep the WB  in the envelope.  There have been a lot of Model 4s out there set up with  Soobs and the seem to fly OK, but the useful load really suffers.  Yours  would suffer even more.  I don't think it would be a good match.   

 The model 3 was never meant to go fast so the 582  is actually a very good match for it.  Simple, light, docile, and  fun.  That's how it was designed and other than aerodynamic cleanup there  isn't much one can do to improve on it.  As for turning it into a  speedster, there were many more things done to achieve that than clipping the  wings, but it's been done.  You would probably pick up some cruise speed,  but would likely lose some takeoff and climb performance.  The Model 3s  main drawback for speed is its highly cambered wings.  Great for lift, but  not speed.  In a nutshell, clean it up aerodynamically and keep it  light.  It'll perform just fine.  Of course, this is all just my  opinion and worth what you paid for it.

  

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP  438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert,  in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning  economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

 [quote]   ---

rexinator

Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Michel V. in Norway has one with a Jabiru 2200 and I'm sure he will 

respond soon. He seems pleased with it. Meanwhile you can go to his 

Youtube videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XuuC_7tKFA



Rexinator



[quote]     ---

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Here is a quote from Sport Aviation regarding Murle  William's Kitfox III which he claimed cruised at 100 MPH.

  

"Perhaps the major modification to 

the airplane was in the wing. The 

Model IV Kitfox was introduced during 

the period N755M was being built 

and incorporated a new airfoil created 

specifically for the design by Harry 

Ribblet. Murle met Harry at Sun 'n 

Fun in 1991 and talked to him about 

upgrading the Model III wing to make 

it perform like the Model IV. Harry 

subsequently sent him the necessary 

ordinates to alter the leading edge 

shape, and Murle made the change by 

cutting a 1 inch PVC plastic pipe in 

two and bonding the halves to the 

Feather Fill was used to achieve the 

proper contour. Also at Harry's suggestion, 

the horizontal tail was 

modified to incorporate an airfoil 

shape, which Murle says helps both 

aerodynamically and aesthetically." 

  

Pete

 [quote]   ---

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Murle Williams told me he split a 1" pvc pipe lengthwise  and glued it to the leading edge of his Mod III wing and feathered it in with  some type of fill material.  He gained airspeed that way. I believe it was  on one of his SNF winners.

  

 Pete

 N73BH Kitfox III, SN 1000, 912,. Grove

 [quote]   ---

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:48 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

I am interested but I guess I can't visualize how this would be done I did send him an email through his website maybe he will send me some pictures.



Thanks for the info

Ken

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Rexinator [rexinator(at)gmail.com]

 Michel V. in Norway has one with a Jabiru 2200 and I'm sure he will 

 respond soon.


	


I am very pleased with my Jabiru but ... isn' the question about Subaru?

PS: I am currently touring my country of birth, Belgium, with my RV and is not really online before next week. WLAN points are not always easy to find on the road! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Do not archive



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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Thanks for the response Michel and the question was about Subaru but I am interested in any info about the model 3, I flew a Jabiru in a Titan for a while and I really liked the engine light and powerfull but also expensive not as bad as the 912 but unfortunatley too much for my budget unless a cheap used one shows up,I think for now I will keep flying the 582 after hearing from Deke and others and reading some archives about the engine I fell better about it, I am really interested in how Murle williams modified the wing on his model 3 for more speed I looked up the sport aviation article on this and it looks like he just glued the half 1" pvc to the leading edge and feathered it in and left the rest of the wing alone if thats really all he did I would consider this but I will need more info before I try it hopefully I will hear back from him.



Ken

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Kitfox has a PVC leading edge that glues on and gets covered over.  Does clean up the leading edge a bit.  It is not too expensive and installs easily!

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

I have talked to John Mcbean at Kitfox a few times about pricing and installing a mod 4 wing on my 3 but he never mentioned a pvc leading edge that he could sell me I will email him and ask about this.



Thanks 

Ken

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

I emailed John at Kitfox about the leading edge and they do sell a leading edge pvc piece that looks like the mod that Murle williams made with 1' pvc pipe but its molded so you don't need any filler I am planning on ordering this soon and installing it, I checked my Kitfox tonight with almost no wind and I get about 80mph gps confirmed at 5500 rpm I will post the results with the leading edge mod and no other changes.



Ken

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:22 am Post subject: kitfox 3

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: kenjrichter [kenrichter(at)centurytel.net]

 I will keep flying the 582


	


Perhaps a good decision, Ken. I am on holidays and haven't followed the thread but I was once told that I was foolish to fly a two-stroke engine in the Norwegian mountains and I changed my 582 with 270 hours for a Jabiru. I am very pleased with the Jabiru but my 582 that I sold to the club's Rans aicraft, flew another 300 hours without problems. It is a very good engine too. It requires a bit more maintainance, perhaps, but if you love your Kitfox you must also learn to love your engine and treat it like a mistress! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3- Jabiru 2200



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Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dholly

Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Upstate NY

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Ken, here's a copy of the leading edge template for a model IV rib.

leading edge template.jpg

Description:

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Viewed:

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_________________
-Kitfox III 582 Blue/C Grove Spring / Aerocet 1100 Amphibs
-Airdale Avid+ (project) TD / W.I.B. Gear

Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Would this leading edge mod work on a Model II as well.



Ken

_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:02 am Post subject: kitfox 3

I don't see why it wouldn't work, Ken, as all Kitfoxes use the tubular front 

spar.  However, the shape of the wing on the 3 is much different than the 4 

so I don't know if it would provide any more performance.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

Subject: Re: kitfox 3

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Would this leading edge mod work on a Model II as well.



 Ken



 --------

 Ken Potter

 Model II, No. 483

 Rotax 582, C-Box,

 98% Complete

 C-FJKP (marks reserved)

 Lanark, Ontario

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

 	  Ken Potter wrote: 	
		  Would this leading edge mod work on a Model II as well.



Ken 	




Buddy put it on his Model I when he rebuilt it last year.  He bought it as a basket case, so we never flew it without them, but I will tell you the cruise on it is better than on the Model II at about the same weights.  Climb is better also.

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

I talked to Murle Williams online via email and he thought that the leading edge pvc would help the early mod 1-3 kitfoxes also as this is really what he did but before the preformed pvc was made and it made a difference on his model 3, I am planning on ordering it and installing it next week on my 3 to try it out , I think I will use the leading edge tape to cover over it and hold it on to see how it works before I permanently install it.



Ken Richter

mod 3/582/gsc prop

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Leading edge fro M c bean will give you a few mph........



Strut fairings will give you more..........  5 to 8 mph.



Model 1 & 2 can see VNe easier this way. I think the model 3 had a higher VNE

_________________
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kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Which fairings do you mean  streamlined wing struts or something else?



Thanks Ken

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

 	  kenjrichter wrote: 	
		  Which fairings do you mean  streamlined wing struts or something else?



Thanks Ken 	


Wing strut fairings is the best gain on most mods you will do for speed  increase.



Every little mod will add up but Kitfox not an aerodynamic dream machine.  The IV model is faster that the 1, 2  or 3s due to wing ,leading edge mostly. As well as less drag from less angle of windscreen etc.  But bigger struts  give more wetted area.  and so on. 



Lot of those little silly mods might help like gas cap fairing etc but really we talking minimal. Wing strut fairs and gear fairings and wheels pants will be best. 



Also -- your false ribs help as well  . some model Ivs had false ribs on bottom of wing as well and this give s a little gain as well in speed.

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