Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

EGTs are killing me
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: EGTs are killing me

Somebody with a good working knowledge of the inside of a Bing 54 PLEASE HELP ME.  Lets start at the beginning, as temps started to drop below about 55-60f I started having EGT trouble and I started reading up and doing some adjustments.  The needle jet, jet needle, and up until yesterday the main jet were stock.  I installed the HACman which comes with 180 main jets and I purchased but did not install the next size up of needle jets, 2.74 I think.  I read that going up a needle jet size could cool off the mid RPMs but I wanted to work with the HACman before I made any more adjustments.



So today I had the HACman full rich for all but a couple minutes of the flight when I leaned it just to make sure it worked properly.  Temp was 32f and PA was 500'.  Climbing at 62-6500 yielded 1125-1150 and cruise at 5800 was 1175 as long as the prop was loaded, any decent and it headed for 1200.  I went to adjust the needle and found that it was actually on the bottom ring, tho one that I am pretty sure is not supposed to be used for a setting so I actually took it back up to the third ring from the top just to see if it was a case of too far in the right direction is no better and nothing improved.   According to the chart I have seen I should be running the 165 main jet with stock needles at all temperatures at this altitude but it is obviously not working.  



Should I install the 2.74 needle jets?  Might this fix the hi temps?  I have a new prop on the way that is bigger and that should help a little but not when it is unloaded.  What adjustments do needles make, is there a better needle for my situation?  Where I am the temps often swing 25-30 degrees through the day and I cannot chase these EGTs.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:08 am Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

JAmes



Stock jetting should work fine for you without the HAC MAN -



summer  needle  set at  3 rd from top 

Winter (temps 50 F or less ) drop to 4th notch from top 



If you are operating under 5000  ASL all the time you don;t have to worry much about leaning mixtures. 



Your EGT  gauge is calibrated (at)  70 F so if you are 20 F outside temp and the EGT gauge shows 1200  then  that would be the same as operating at  outside temp of 70 F with a EGT reading of 1150 F



EGT gauge are only a indicator of what is going on inside engine.  Plugs will  tell the  real story.



You can also set your prop static rpm to 6000 and get a bit more load on it .

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

dwight purdy

Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:28 am Post subject: EGTs are killing me

I think you might need to load the prop a little more. You do not want to 

load it too much though. It is also very important to have a accurate tach.I 

only use digital ones. It is very common to have to stay away from certain 

rpms while descending .

Dwight Purdy

Model II 503-532

---

_________________
dwight
model II

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:15 am Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

James, I have the "Arctic Sparrow" in-flight adjustable needles.  When descending I still must watch the EGTs like a hawk.



With the throttle set for 5800-6000 cruise rpm I can descend slowly but need to turn the needle-mixtures one or two turns richer or egts want to climb above 1225.  My gages read 1200 in cruise and I don't worry about 1225 in a descent as my plugs look good and cocoa brown afterward.



If I reduce the throttle setting to the mid range the gages climb above 1225 quickly.  If I need to get down faster, like when I go to Yakima I need to stay high to cross a ridge then descend quickly to get to pattern altitude at the tower controlled airport, I pull the throttle to idle and nose it down.  My engine is air cooled by a fan so cylinder head temps stay above 200 degrees doing this.



Your egts actually seem normal to me.  Descending is the pain in the butt with rotax two strokes in an airplane.  And like Dave pointed out the egt gauges read higher than the temps actually are when the temperature at the cold junction in the gage wiring is less than 70 degrees.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

 	  Quote: 	
		   What adjustments do needles make, is there a better needle for my situation? Where I am the temps often swing 25-30 degrees through the day and I cannot chase these EGTs. 	




James, scroll down to Part 11...Tuning the Bing Carburetor-"Understanding the Mid-range circuit".

http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  JAmes



Your EGT  gauge is calibrated (at)  70 F so if you are 20 F outside temp and the EGT gauge shows 1200  then  that would be the same as operating at  outside temp of 70 F with a EGT reading of 1150 F 	




A sigh of relief crashes over me.  For some reason I had this backwards in my head yesterday and was afraid I had exceeded 1200 a couple of times.



I thought the 4th notch down was not supposed to be used for a mixture setting, am I just wrong?



And what about those needle jets, do they help?



By the next time I fly the GSC 66" should be wall art in my son's room and I should be spinning a 70" medium Ivo.  Ooohoohooooh, thrust and pitch, thrust and pitch, I can't wait.  The GSC does need more pitch to it but I thought I could just leave it and keep an eye on RPMs.  It figures that this would not be the case with 2 strokes.  No matter now but I will adjust the Ivo to get the most fun.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

Oh, and the plugs are a nice tan color, I replaced them before the last flight.  Although the fouling is undeniable.  Stupid Avgas.  I am switching plugs about every 10-15 hours just to be safe.  Anyone have a guideline they use if running Avgas in a 582?

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: EGTs are killing me

The lead in the avgas is obviously giving you some fouling.  Perhaps you

could wash the eth out of some mogas and mix it 1:1 with the avgas.  That

should reduce the lead in your fuel by 50% and also give an octane rating of

close to 94, plenty for a two stroke.  In fact if you mixed two parts of

washed mogas to one part avgas you should come out with close to 91 octane

fuel with only 1/3 the lead in it.



What would worry me most is the possibility that lead is plating on your

main roller bearings.  If you get a serious build up of lead there it could

cause a seizure...  in flight!  Additives the scavenge lead only work when

the fuel is burned so they will not protect your lower end.  They should

however help keep your plugs from fouling.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

 	  WurlyBird wrote: 	
		  Oh, and the plugs are a nice tan color, I replaced them before the last flight.  Although the fouling is undeniable.  Stupid Avgas.  I am switching plugs about every 10-15 hours just to be safe.  Anyone have a guideline they use if running Avgas in a 582? 	


hey -- then you doing it right man. 



Pistons start to melt  1300 to 1350 on the 582s   1200 is   ok if guage is accurate. Plugs tell the rea lstroy and yours sound good. 



I get 100 to 150 hours out of plugs- I only use Rotax  NKG s  Solid tipped   yeah yeah yeah -- I know you can do this and they but  facts says they din  a better job.   compare 6 $ a plug for 150 hour sto chaing your 2 $ plugs every  15 hours  . 



http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/

http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/ngk.htm

http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/tipsblack.htm



That is what thousands of hours of  Rotax time will teach you .

Regular Gas is fine in 582 --  Avgas is not recomended  but some use it without a problem.

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  I get 100 to 150 hours out of plugs 	




But you also use mogas and so you don't have the fouling problem.  But at least now we are on the topic of e gas.  How do you wash it?  The only thing I have heard you can do is add water to it let it sit and then drain it off, this seems like a very time intensive process.  And it requires you voluntarily add WATER to your FUEL.  For the sake of argument though, how much water do you add to 5 gallons, and how long do you let it sit?



The other thing I understand about e gas is that ethanol is a solvent and will dissolve the resin used in older fiberglass tanks.  I have a leaky tank so I plan on replacing them soon anyway with the ethanol compatible ones from McB.  Once these are replaced is there anything else that needs to be done/replaced in order to just run e gas through the engine?  i understand that ethanol has much less energy in it and so burns cooler and at less efficiency, I think I have heard that it usually has to run a little richer then normal, anyone know anything about that?

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

 	  WurlyBird wrote: 	
		   	  dave wrote: 	
		  I get 100 to 150 hours out of plugs 	




But you also use mogas and so you don't have the fouling problem.  But at least now we are on the topic of e gas.  How do you wash it?  The only thing I have heard you can do is add water to it let it sit and then drain it off, this seems like a very time intensive process.  And it requires you voluntarily add WATER to your FUEL.  For the sake of argument though, how much water do you add to 5 gallons, and how long do you let it sit?



The other thing I understand about e gas is that ethanol is a solvent and will dissolve the resin used in older fiberglass tanks.  I have a leaky tank so I plan on replacing them soon anyway with the ethanol compatible ones from McB.  Once these are replaced is there anything else that needs to be done/replaced in order to just run e gas through the engine?  i understand that ethanol has much less energy in it and so burns cooler and at less efficiency, I think I have heard that it usually has to run a little richer then normal, anyone know anything about that? 	


Yikes ,  You just opened a can of worms here.  



E gas --what kind?  E 85  or  E 10? 



Here in Canada we only has up to E 10 which is 10% Ethanol.  I cannot comment on mixing water with fuel as I have not tried it . I only preach what I know and practice. Watch what you read from gurus  James  as they are not always tried and true methods. 



I have over 800 hours personally in My Kitfox 582 in the last couple of years alone using ethanol gas.Mind you I have never tested it, I just buy regular grade at pump and dump it in or at marinas.  My tanks have not leaked.   If they do I will certainly entertain the drop ins from http://www.wingtanks.com/  .

As far as fouling , no i don't have any problems from Lead  but 10 to 15 hours usage and if you got fouling then you had better change your ways and you will be getting alot more lead deposits on bearings.  If you are getting lead fouling.  Take a pic and post it .

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

E 10 is the standard here.  Some places seem to "lose" their stickers advertising the ethanol but it all has it now.  These are the plugs I pulled out Saturday morning.  I don't have the exact number of hours on them but it is somewhere between 15 to 20.   I had looked at those drop in wing tanks and now I can't remember why I was planning on buying from McB.  So is there anything else in the fuel system that the ethanol messes with besides the tanks?

spark2.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

51.64 KB

Viewed:

13804 Time(s)

spark1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

52.98 KB

Viewed:

13804 Time(s)

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: EGTs are killing me

Good questions.

Gas does not form a solution with ethanol.  Instead it has a phase

relationship.  That means, for this instance, it can easily and physically

separated.



Separation is easy If you have 10% ethanol in your gas simply add an

equivalent amount of water.  Ethanol actually forms a solution with water

and of course water cannot form a solution with gas so the ethanol laced

water just sinks to the bottom of the container like a lead balloon.  You

really don't need to do much mixing.  A little gentle stirring will suffice.

BTW it is true that some water can actually mix with gas but the quantity is

so low as to be insignificant.  Much more water will mix with the ethanol in

egas before undergoing a phase separation with the gas.  If you get a phase

separation of pre missed gas what  you end up with is something closer to

mud than gas.



How long should you leave the gas before using it?  I prefer to leave an

airplane for 20 minutes after fueling before draining the sumps.  A guy who

bought a Lake LA-4 from my father didn't do that and also didn't live to

regret it.  20 minutes is enough time for even the smallest droplets of

water to sink safely to the bottom of your container.  My recommendation

from here would be to either siphon or preferably drain the water/ethanol

solution from the bottom of the container and then filter the remaining

ethanol free gas into the plane through either a Mr. Funnel or a good

chamois ( felt ).



I don't want to get into why I think ethanol should be anchored securely to

the ground but I can say that you are right in the fact there is less power

per gallon in ethanol than in gas.  It also has a much higher RON than gas.

The higher the RON, the higher the flash temperature and the harder it is to

get the stuff to burn.  Because the flame ethanol burns with is completely

invisible I hope they put something into E-85 to keep unsuspecting firemen

away from burning cars or trucks.



Newer cars are built with higher compression engines, turbo charging and

much richer fuel mapping not to mention all new advanced ignition timing

than older models.  They have modified the engines so much that they

actually work better on egas than on regular gas...  What they don't do is

work better than older engines running on regular gasoline.  Keep that in

mind when buying a new car.  Remember as the U.S. cleans up its Diesel

supply Diesel cars will become much more common.  I think Audi even has a

Diesel powered super car now.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

napierm(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: EGTs are killing me

Hey James,



I ran 200 hours on a 582 with the HACMan.  It works pretty well.  Be

advised that one way to lower your EGT's is by increasing the pitch of

the prop.  Mine turned about 5800 static.  Only problem I had with it

was the supplied barbs didn't hold the lines very well so I replaced

them with something a little better.  Same with the plastic clamps.

Just use 2 turns of safety wire instead.  To get a little more

adjustment range out of the HACMan I put in a "vacuum restrictor"

orifice (drilled out with a #40 drill bit) in the air sense line coming

from the air cleaner.  If you do that then go up one size on your main

jets.



Also, the #55 idle jets that come with the carbs are too big.  Replace

them with #45 and the engine will idle much better.  Before I changed

mine out the motor would often quit on final approach and tended to foul

up on the ground.  The iridium plugs help some too.



About avgas:  I stuck my rings and had the engine sag on me during a

take-off run.  It just plain quit taxing back.  Fortunately I aborted

but 10 seconds later would have been over the trees with few options.

The inside of my engine looked like it was power coated white.  Piston

tops, heads, exhaust system, all of them looked like they had just come

out of the paint shop and the cylinders were scratched.  When I called

South Mississippi to describe the problem, he said "Let me guess, the

inside of your motor looks like it was painted white."  This was at ~180

hours with mostly running car gas but getting avgas at stops cross

country flights.  The oil was Pennsoil 2-stroke for air cooled engines.

Maybe the lead scavengers or other oils would do better, I can't say.

Now I can't buy car gas w/o alcohol but all things considered I would

rather replace my tanks than feed the engine on a steady diet of lead.



Charging system:  The engine is only good for about 10 amps.  For

instance, I could run the radio, strobes, intercom and still put a

couple of amps into the battery.  However nav lights put me into the

red.  Fortunately I almost never needed the nav lights!  I used the

odyssey 625 battery with good results.

FWIW,



Mark Napier





Time: 06:00:34 PM PST US

Subject: EGTs are killing me

From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

Somebody with a good working knowledge of the inside of a Bing 54 PLEASE

HELP ME.

Lets start at the beginning, as temps started to drop below about 55-60f

I

started having EGT trouble and I started reading up and doing some

adjustments.

The needle jet, jet needle, and up until yesterday the main jet were

stock.

I installed the HACman which comes with 180 main jets and I purchased

but did

not install the next size up of needle jets, 2.74 I think.  I read that

going

up a needle jet size could cool off the mid RPMs but I wanted to work

with

the HACman before I made any more adjustments.



So today I had the HACman full rich for all but a couple minutes of the

flight

when I leaned it just to make sure it worked properly.  Temp was 32f and

PA was

500'.  Climbing at 62-6500 yielded 1125-1150 and cruise at 5800 was 1175

as

long as the prop was loaded, any decent and it headed for 1200.  I went

to adjust

the needle and found that it was actually on the bottom ring, tho one

that

I am pretty sure is not supposed to be used for a setting so I actually

took

it back up to the third ring from the top just to see if it was a case

of too

far in the right direction is no better and nothing improved.

According to the

chart I have seen I should be running the 165 main jet with stock

needles at

all temperatures at this altitude but it is obviously not working.  



Should I install the 2.74 needle jets?  Might this fix the hi temps?  I

have a

new prop on the way that is bigger and that should help a little but not

when

it is unloaded.  What adjustments do needles make, is there a better

needle for

my situation?  Where I am the temps often swing 25-30 degrees through

the day

and I cannot chase these EGTs.



--------

James

Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

The ink is still drying on my new certificate

Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 76401#276401

stokesc(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject: EGTs are killing me

Mark,

  

 You say you are using 2-stroke oil for air cooled engines.

 The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference to

 use the water cooled 2-stroke oil or the air cooled 2-stroke oil for the 582 engine ?



Cecil in North Idaho

 Kitfox IV 1050 582 C box GSC prop

  

  

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Mark Napier (napierm) <napierm(at)cisco.com (napierm(at)cisco.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark Napier (napierm)" <napierm(at)cisco.com (napierm(at)cisco.com)>

 

Hey James,



I ran 200 hours on a 582 with the HACMan.  It works pretty well.  Be

advised that one way to lower your EGT's is by increasing the pitch of

the prop.  Mine turned about 5800 static.  Only problem I had with it

 was the supplied barbs didn't hold the lines very well so I replaced

them with something a little better.  Same with the plastic clamps.

Just use 2 turns of safety wire instead.  To get a little more

adjustment range out of the HACMan I put in a "vacuum restrictor"

 orifice (drilled out with a #40 drill bit) in the air sense line coming

from the air cleaner.  If you do that then go up one size on your main

jets.



Also, the #55 idle jets that come with the carbs are too big.  Replace

 them with #45 and the engine will idle much better.  Before I changed

mine out the motor would often quit on final approach and tended to foul

up on the ground.  The iridium plugs help some too.



About avgas:  I stuck my rings and had the engine sag on me during a

 take-off run.  It just plain quit taxing back.  Fortunately I aborted

but 10 seconds later would have been over the trees with few options.

The inside of my engine looked like it was power coated white.  Piston

tops, heads, exhaust system, all of them looked like they had just come

 out of the paint shop and the cylinders were scratched.  When I called

South Mississippi to describe the problem, he said "Let me guess, the

inside of your motor looks like it was painted white."  This was at ~180

 hours with mostly running car gas but getting avgas at stops cross

country flights.  The oil was Pennsoil 2-stroke for air cooled engines.

Maybe the lead scavengers or other oils would do better, I can't say.

 Now I can't buy car gas w/o alcohol but all things considered I would

rather replace my tanks than feed the engine on a steady diet of lead.



Charging system:  The engine is only good for about 10 amps.  For

 instance, I could run the radio, strobes, intercom and still put a

couple of amps into the battery.  However nav lights put me into the

red.  Fortunately I almost never needed the nav lights!  I used the

odyssey 625 battery with good results.

 



FWIW,



Mark Napier





Time: 06:00:34 PM PST US

Subject: EGTs are killing me

From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)>

 



Somebody with a good working knowledge of the inside of a Bing 54 PLEASE

HELP ME.

Lets start at the beginning, as temps started to drop below about 55-60f

I

started having EGT trouble and I started reading up and doing some

 adjustments.

The needle jet, jet needle, and up until yesterday the main jet were

stock.

I installed the HACman which comes with 180 main jets and I purchased

but did

not install the next size up of needle jets, 2.74 I think.  I read that

 going

up a needle jet size could cool off the mid RPMs but I wanted to work

with

the HACman before I made any more adjustments.



So today I had the HACman full rich for all but a couple minutes of the

flight

 when I leaned it just to make sure it worked properly.  Temp was 32f and

PA was

500'.  Climbing at 62-6500 yielded 1125-1150 and cruise at 5800 was 1175

as

long as the prop was loaded, any decent and it headed for 1200.  I went

 to adjust

the needle and found that it was actually on the bottom ring, tho one

that

I am pretty sure is not supposed to be used for a setting so I actually

took

it back up to the third ring from the top just to see if it was a case

 of too

far in the right direction is no better and nothing improved.

According to the

chart I have seen I should be running the 165 main jet with stock

needles at

all temperatures at this altitude but it is obviously not working.

 

Should I install the 2.74 needle jets?  Might this fix the hi temps?  I

have a

new prop on the way that is bigger and that should help a little but not

when

it is unloaded.  What adjustments do needles make, is there a better

 needle for

my situation?  Where I am the temps often swing 25-30 degrees through

the day

and I cannot chase these EGTs.



--------

James

Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

The ink is still drying on my new certificate

  



Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276401#276401

  

   * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/r generous support!

 ronics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============



[b]

napierm(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: EGTs are killing me

Hey Cecil,



The 582 is supposed to use 2-stroke air cooled oil.  Now *which* oil and

additives to use with what gas, well, that is an endless discussion.



The Pennsoil can be bought inexpensively on-line by the case.  I don't

know about any other types because that's all I used.

Time: 08:38:20 PM PST US

Subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

From: Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net>



Mark,



You say you are using 2-stroke oil for air cooled engines.

The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference

to

use the *water* cooled 2-stroke oil or the *air* cooled 2-stroke oil for

the

582 engine ?



Cecil in North Idaho

Kitfox IV 1050 582 C box GSC prop

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: EGTs are killing me

At 08:35 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference to

 use the water cooled 2-stroke oil or the air cooled 2-stroke oil for the 582 engine ? 	


 Cecil,

         See:  http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm for the reason most people use this oil.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: EGTs are killing me

At 03:01 PM 12/6/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  What would worry me most is the possibility that lead is plating on your

 main roller bearings.  If you get a serious build up of lead there it could

 cause a seizure...  in flight!  Additives the scavenge lead only work when

 the fuel is burned so they will not protect your lower end.  They should

 however help keep your plugs from fouling. 	


 I don't know if I'd worry too much about it. I've run nothing but 100LL through my 582 for 400 hours using Decalin scavenger and don't seem to be suffering for it.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: EGTs are killing me

Mark, I'd be the last one to say I was current on oil technology. I have never heard of water cooled vs air cooled 2 stroke oil. I've heard of premix vs injector 2 stroke oil. I have used AMSOIL 100 to 1 premix in everything; weed whips, Kohler ultralite engine, air cooled and watercooled dirt bikes, aircooled snowmobiles, chainsaws, and lawnmowers for 30 years and swear by it for premix. What air cooled or watercooled oil are you talking about? I've been on this list for 2 years and your the 1st one to mention water vs air cooled 2 stroke oil. Im always willing to learn. 

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL 

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net (stokesc(at)wildblue.net)> wrote:

 [quote] Mark,

  

 You say you are using 2-stroke oil for air cooled engines.

 The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference to

 use the water cooled 2-stroke oil or the air cooled 2-stroke oil for the 582 engine ?



Cecil in North Idaho

 Kitfox IV 1050 582 C box GSC prop

  

  

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Mark Napier (napierm) <napierm(at)cisco.com (napierm(at)cisco.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark Napier (napierm)" <napierm(at)cisco.com (napierm(at)cisco.com)>

 

Hey James,



I ran 200 hours on a 582 with the HACMan.  It works pretty well.  Be

advised that one way to lower your EGT's is by increasing the pitch of

the prop.  Mine turned about 5800 static.  Only problem I had with it

 was the supplied barbs didn't hold the lines very well so I replaced

them with something a little better.  Same with the plastic clamps.

Just use 2 turns of safety wire instead.  To get a little more

adjustment range out of the HACMan I put in a "vacuum restrictor"

 orifice (drilled out with a #40 drill bit) in the air sense line coming

from the air cleaner.  If you do that then go up one size on your main

jets.



Also, the #55 idle jets that come with the carbs are too big.  Replace

 them with #45 and the engine will idle much better.  Before I changed

mine out the motor would often quit on final approach and tended to foul

up on the ground.  The iridium plugs help some too.



About avgas:  I stuck my rings and had the engine sag on me during a

 take-off run.  It just plain quit taxing back.  Fortunately I aborted

but 10 seconds later would have been over the trees with few options.

The inside of my engine looked like it was power coated white.  Piston

tops, heads, exhaust system, all of them looked like they had just come

 out of the paint shop and the cylinders were scratched.  When I called

South Mississippi to describe the problem, he said "Let me guess, the

inside of your motor looks like it was painted white."  This was at ~180

 hours with mostly running car gas but getting avgas at stops cross

country flights.  The oil was Pennsoil 2-stroke for air cooled engines.

Maybe the lead scavengers or other oils would do better, I can't say.

 Now I can't buy car gas w/o alcohol but all things considered I would

rather replace my tanks than feed the engine on a steady diet of lead.



Charging system:  The engine is only good for about 10 amps.  For

 instance, I could run the radio, strobes, intercom and still put a

couple of amps into the battery.  However nav lights put me into the

red.  Fortunately I almost never needed the nav lights!  I used the

odyssey 625 battery with good results.

 



FWIW,



Mark Napier





Time: 06:00:34 PM PST US

Subject: EGTs are killing me

From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)>

 



Somebody with a good working knowledge of the inside of a Bing 54 PLEASE

HELP ME.

Lets start at the beginning, as temps started to drop below about 55-60f

I

started having EGT trouble and I started reading up and doing some

 adjustments.

The needle jet, jet needle, and up until yesterday the main jet were

stock.

I installed the HACman which comes with 180 main jets and I purchased

but did

not install the next size up of needle jets, 2.74 I think.  I read that

 going

up a needle jet size could cool off the mid RPMs but I wanted to work

with

the HACman before I made any more adjustments.



So today I had the HACman full rich for all but a couple minutes of the

flight

 when I leaned it just to make sure it worked properly.  Temp was 32f and

PA was

500'.  Climbing at 62-6500 yielded 1125-1150 and cruise at 5800 was 1175

as

long as the prop was loaded, any decent and it headed for 1200.  I went

 to adjust

the needle and found that it was actually on the bottom ring, tho one

that

I am pretty sure is not supposed to be used for a setting so I actually

took

it back up to the third ring from the top just to see if it was a case

 of too

far in the right direction is no better and nothing improved.

According to the

chart I have seen I should be running the 165 main jet with stock

needles at

all temperatures at this altitude but it is obviously not working.

 

Should I install the 2.74 needle jets?  Might this fix the hi temps?  I

have a

new prop on the way that is bigger and that should help a little but not

when

it is unloaded.  What adjustments do needles make, is there a better

 needle for

my situation?  Where I am the temps often swing 25-30 degrees through

the day

and I cannot chase these EGTs.



--------

James

Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

The ink is still drying on my new certificate

  



Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276401#276401

  

  * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

http:/r generous support!

 ronics List Features Navigator to browse

s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============









"_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com



	
[b]

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: EGTs are killing me

 	  napierm(at)cisco.com wrote: 	
		  Hey James, ... all of them looked like they had just come

out of the paint shop and the cylinders were scratched.  	




This has me a little concerned.  So they said that this was due to the lead?  I really need to find a solution soon, I do not want to land off field for any reason.  The HACman came with a tube inserted into the barb that goes into the air filter.  It also comes with 180 main jets, 3 steps up from stock.



 	  stokesc(at)wildblue.net wrote: 	
		  Mark,

 ï¿½

 You say you are using 2-stroke oil for air cooled engines.

 The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference to use the water cooled 2-stroke oil or the air cooled 2-stroke oil for the 582 engine ?



	




My buddy who has many thousand hours behind and in front of 2 strokes told me to use the air cooled 2 stroke oil because even though it is water cooled it burns like an air cooled as far as temps go.  It is much higher in performance then what the water cooled 2 stroke oil is meant for.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum