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Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: Card Compass Question

I am laying out my instrument panel and would like to Put the card compass in the upper most area of the panel.  I know to keep all wiring and anything electrical as far away as possible from the compass or the reading will be affected.  That's the reason you normally see them hanging in a hodge podge manner most anywhere.  The only thing I see so far that interferes with the compass is the RPM gauge and that is easily eliminated by distance.



     My question is, does anyone know of any shielding methods thats good to use other that just distance.  Aluminum plate shielding does nothing.



Thanks



Rick Lewis

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: Card Compass Question

I had a plane that suddenly became magnetized and messed up the compass.  A fellow from the lab where I worked gave

me a piece of thin shiny metal that looked like stainless and I put it under the compass base.  He had a name for it but that was a long time ago.

BB



On 19, Dec 2009, at 9:30 PM, Rick Lewis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I am laying out my instrument panel and would like to Put the card compass in the upper most area of the panel.  I know to keep all wiring and anything electrical as far away as possible from the compass or the reading will be affected.  That's the reason you normally see them hanging in a hodge podge manner most anywhere.  The only thing I see so far that interferes with the compass is the RPM gauge and that is easily eliminated by distance.

 

     My question is, does anyone know of any shielding methods thats good to use other that just distance.  Aluminum plate shielding does nothing.

 

 Thanks

 

 Rick Lewis

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 78201#278201

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: Card Compass Question

>> I am laying out my instrument panel and would like to Put the card 

compass in the upper most area of the panel.

 >>

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Rick Lewis


	




Rick L/Gang:



Good luck on your mag compass installation.



I have never been able to get a good location for my mag compass in my 

mkIII.  Swinging the compass does not help.  Too much magnetic interference 

to make it reliable.



My Firestar, the mag compass worked perfectly.  I could swing it to within a 

couple degrees in all quadrants.  It had to work because if was my primary 

means of navigation with my sectional.  Did a lot of extended cross country 

flights in the Firestar.



Only reason I have a mag compass in the mkIII is because there is a 

requirement to have one installed.  I can use it for back up to maintain a 

heading, but probably will not know what the correct heading is to within 30 

to 45 degrees.  However, it will keep me from flying in circles and get me 

to a major highway, railroad, power transmission line, river, or something, 

to follow to a town or village, and eventually, to an airport or some place 

to land in a field or road near civilization.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

At 09:30 PM 12/19/2009, Rick Lewis wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  ...The only thing I see so far that interferes with the compass is the RPM gauge and that is easily eliminated by distance.



      My question is, does anyone know of any shielding methods thats good to use other that just distance.  Aluminum plate shielding does nothing. 	


 Rick, aluminum will do nothing because it's not magnetic.  You can't actually shield a magnetic field, but you can reroute it to some extent.  Try <http://www.lessemf.com/mag-shld.html>.



 -Dana



 

 --

  Why doesn't the fattest man in the world become a hockey goalie?    [quote][b]

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

Rick

I've had SOME luck with copper sheeting -- but it's far from   

perfect. Worth a try,  but there's a lot of steel in a Kolb.

A flux-gate compass should be good, with the head way out on/in the  

wing.

Good luck!

Russ K

do not archive



On Dec 19, 2009, at 9:30 PM, Rick Lewis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am laying out my instrument panel and would like to Put the card  

 compass in the upper most area of the panel.  I know to keep all  

 wiring and anything electrical as far away as possible from the  

 compass or the reading will be affected.  That's the reason you  

 normally see them hanging in a hodge podge manner most anywhere.   

 The only thing I see so far that interferes with the compass is the  

 RPM gauge and that is easily eliminated by distance.



      My question is, does anyone know of any shielding methods  

 thats good to use other that just distance.  Aluminum plate  

 shielding does nothing.



 Thanks



 Rick Lewis





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 78201#278201

Fran Losey

Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 61
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

Bob,



In electronics, mu-metal is an excellent shielding material. If I recall it is mostly nickel, some iron.  I suspect this is what you were given.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



--

_________________
Fran Losey
N62FL (reserved)

loseyf@comcast.net

Fran Losey

Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 61
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:45 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

If I were trying to determine what effect the airframe is having, I would establish a directional heading reference outside the aircraft, then place the compass in the aircraft, maintaining the outside reference.  With all power off, is there a difference? There may not be much you can do with respect to this except try to find a point of lowest interference.



The thing to keep in mind with magnetic coupling is that the inverse square law applies.  What I mean by this is if structure is the issue, the magnetic effect will decrease by the inverse square root with distance.  For example, if I have a known gauss level (hypothetically and for simplicity) of say 16 at 1" from a source of magnetic flux, the level would be 4 at 2", 2 at 4", etc. Keeping it simple, take the square root of the flux value for every doubling of distance.  Again theoretically.  



If the compass does not swing "significantly" when all power is off, turn items on one at a time.  Can you identify the source?



Shielding can help in some cases, but it can be tricky.



My 2 cents.  Happy Holidays everyone!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



--

_________________
Fran Losey
N62FL (reserved)

loseyf@comcast.net

tclongo(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

My compass was way off and I tried few different ones and they were all off about the same. My compass was mounted on the left side of dash in a MKIII Classic. I used a degaussing coil made for removing magnetism  from TV picture tubes and degaussed the frame around the dash area and the compass was perfect after that. I own a electronics repair shop and the local car dealer has sent me a few cars over the years that had electronic compasses that were too far out of range to compensate and I would degauss the hood and metal around windshield and roof and this would take care of compass problems. So borrow a coil or buy one from supply company and try it you will be surprised it works.  Tom  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dana Hague

 Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 8:06 AM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Card Compass Question  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

At 09:30 PM 12/19/2009, Rick Lewis wrote: <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  

...The only thing I see so far that interferes with the compass is the RPM gauge and that is easily eliminated by distance.

 

      My question is, does anyone know of any shielding methods thats good to use other that just distance.  Aluminum plate shielding does nothing.  



 Rick, aluminum will do nothing because it's not magnetic.  You can't actually shield a magnetic field, but you can reroute it to some extent.  Try <http://www.lessemf.com/mag-shld.html>.

 

 -Dana <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  

--  

 Why doesn't the fattest man in the world become a hockey goalie?   [quote]<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>       -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --           (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)   November is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on   the Contribution link below to find out more about   this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided   by:     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com     * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com     * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com   List Contribution Web Site:   --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution   Thank you for your generous support!                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.          - The Kolb-List Email Forum -   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -   --> http://forums.matronics.com<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

Tom/Gang:

  

 Where are you located?

  

 I'll swing by your place and let you degauss my  compass.  

  

 Would be nice to have a mag compass that performed  accurately and reliably.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

 [quote]    I used a degaussing coil made for removing    magnetism  from TV picture tubes    and degaussed the frame around the dash area and the compass was perfect after    that.       Tom

      

<![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>    

 <![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]><![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]><![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

tclongo(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

Hi John, that will be great I will go out and stop traffic on SR50 in Brooksville, FL in front of my shop so you can land but your on your own clearing wires across the road.   

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

LOL,  Tom  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

--

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Card Compass Question

Wet compass problem?



Check your fuselage over using a camping/Boy Scout handheld compass, especially in the vicinity of your proposed mounting point for the wet compass.  Welding often leaves traces of magnetism behind.  If you find an area that strongly deflects the compass needle (much more than the needles normal attraction to anything steel), locate an OLD TV repair guy and see if you can borrow his degaussing coil (obsolete technology for very old color TV sets). 



If you energize the coil with AC current (energize away from the steel), bring the coil close and slowly move the coil in circles around the affected area, and then slowly move the coil away; most of the steel atoms will re-arrange their polarity into their normal random order.  This should reduce or eliminate any problem with residual magnetism.  Donâ€™t leave the coil energized too long or it will overheat and self-destruct.  

WARNING    When degaussing, keep your wallet, watches, charge cards, CDâ€™s, computers, tapes or any other magnetic storage media far, far away.  Also, remove all radios and aircraft instruments beforehand.  I would also remove any ball bearings in the vicinity.



If you want more fun, make your own degaussing coil â€“ Google â€œMake Degaussing Coilâ€ for specifics.  Drive a few finishing nails leaning slightly outward in a 10 inch circle on a piece of plywood.  You will probably want to limit the current flow through your coil using  light bulb(s) in series with your coil.  If you arrange a few bulb sockets in parallel and connect that network in series with your coil, you can adjust the coil current for acceptable heat.   Tape the coil (flat) onto a short stick.  Use only in DRY weather, in good shoes, with one hand behind you back and try to avoid electrocution.  Hey, flying is a dangerous sport too!



Seriously, always power your coil setup through a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter protected circuit,  You can buy a plug-in GFCI for use at the airport or better, make your own extension cord by mounting a normal GFCI into a steel electrical box along with a heavy 3-wire appliance cord and use it for ALL your power tools.  This setup wonâ€™t protect if you are dumb enough to put your fingers across hot and neutral, but works extremely well if you touch something electrically hot and your body happens to be even slightly grounded (through dampness or touching grounded metal) or are using that old metal housing portable electric drill you found in the trash with frayed insulation and with the grounding prong clipped off.  



KOLB Flyers â€“ Did you get the message?  Make the darned GFCI extension cord whether you need a degaussing coil or not.  We are having too much fun.  It could save your life.



Jerry King

Last edited by racerjerry on Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Card Compass Question

A degaussing coil works wonders, the airplane I had prior to the MKIII was a magnetic nightmare, but easily fixed by using a bulk VCR or cassette eraser. An old A&P told me how. Right now on ebay there are several degaussers, search "Realistic tape eraser" and the prices are starting at under $5.



I had gas welded the fuselage of the J-6, and each cluster joint was highly magnetized. Don't know why that is, but it happens. Do like racer Jerry says, (heed his warnings too) start several feet away, turn the degausser on and then move it in a spiraling arc to the cluster joint - don't touch the steel, when it gets close, it will magnetically try to suck itself close to the airframe, a piece of cardboard or anything to keep a little space is good. Keep the degausser moving, and then spiral back out going in the opposite direction until you are several feet away before turning it off. 



Check your work with any hand held compass and redo any cluster joints that didn't behave the first time. You ought to be able to get rid of 90% of your aggravation. At least that was my experience.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:20 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

Wet compass problem?



just don`t put your Coors carrier next to the compass.



Cheers



Pat

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:46 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

At 07:16 AM 12/21/2009, pj.ladd wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Wet compass problem?



 just don`t put your Coors carrier next to the compass. 	


 No, after all, it's a WHISKY compass! 



 -Dana

 --

  PADDLE FASTER!! I hear banjo music!!    [quote][b]

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Card Compass Question

I want to thank everyone for there replies.  I'm very familiar with the degaussing coil, but never would have thought of even trying it on an airframe.  I will probably get one even though the cheapest one cost around $30.00.  I just hope it puts out enough of a field to work.  After I'm done with it I would be happy to loan it out.  Shipping would only be around $6.00 each way.



     I checked the difference in readings from outside the cage to inside and it was a 100 degree difference.



Rick Lewis

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

cheapest one cost around $30.00.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Rick Lewis


	




Rick L/Gang:



As Richard Pike suggested, Ebay has a couple dozen Realistic High Power 

Video/Tape Erasers, for 10.00 or less.



http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_kw=Realistic&_kw=Tape&_kw=Eraser&_ckw=Audio



If it works for you, I will probably try it on my mkIII.  Wonder if it will 

damage engine instruments?  Anybody know?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

> If it works for you C I will probably try it on my mkIII. Wonder if it will 

 	  Quote: 	
		   damage engine instruments? Anybody know?

 

 john h

 mkIII

  
	


  

 John C all others C

  

   Yes C as the following formula shows C it will affect your ionization calibration gauge C especially if placed between C or right next to the photon mass emitter;

  

 From the basic k-space formula C it follows immediately that we reconstruct an image  simply by taking the inverse Fourier transform of the sampled data C viz.

     Mike Welch

 MkIII CX



 		 	   		  Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: Card Compass Question

Wow!

  

 Thanks for the info.

  

 Where do I get the numbers to plug into the  formula?

  

 Anybody else got a simple explanation to answer my  question, "Will the degausser damage my electric engine  instruments?"

  

 john h - Getting ready to exercise my right to  flight, this afternoon.

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]      Yes, as the following formula    shows, it will affect your ionization calibration gauge, especially if placed    between, or right next to the photon mass emitter;

 

From the basic k-space formula, it follows immediately that we    reconstruct an image     simply by taking the inverse Fourier transform of the    sampled data, viz.



                Mike Welch

 [b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Card Compass Question

[quote="John Hauck"]Wow!

  

 Thanks for the info.

  

 Where do I get the numbers to plug into the  formula?

  

 Anybody else got a simple explanation to answer my  question, "Will the degausser damage my electric engine  instruments?"

  

 john h - Getting ready to exercise my right to  flight, this afternoon.

 mkIII

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		        Yes, as the following formula    shows, it will affect your ionization calibration gauge, especially if placed    between, or right next to the photon mass emitter;

 

From the basic k-space formula, it follows immediately that we    reconstruct an image     simply by taking the inverse Fourier transform of the    sampled data, viz.



                Mike Welch

 [b] 	




Yeah, right - what he said...



I hadn't thought of that John, but I bet it would. Especially the compass. Which means that you might be facing a fair amount of hassle to demagnetize the front end of the airplane.   



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:05 pm Post subject: Card Compass Question

>Anybody else got a simple explanation to answer my question C "Will the >degausser damage my electric engine instruments?"

  

 >john h - Getting ready to exercise my right to flight C this afternoon.

 >mkIII

  

 Okay C okay C I'll be serious.

  

   Electric temperature instruments are designed to reflect the difference in resistance and current C i.e. the electrical current generated by two dissimilar metals when exposed to temperature.  The sending units are "thermisters"...temperature dependant resisters".  The higher the temperature the lower the resistance C (due to the electrical current flowing between to dissimilar metals)

   The gauge simply displays the present resistance C but it does so on a scale that is calibrated in temperature degrees.

  

   It is very doubtful a demagnetizer can have any effect on electrical engine gauges C unless the demagnetizer is on C and momentarily passing near an instrument C affecting it's electrical activity....but the gauge would not experience any after effects.

  

 IMHO.

  

 Mike Welch

  

  

  

   

  

  

  

  

 		 	   		  Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAtarget='_new'>Sign up now.  [quote][b]

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