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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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 Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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12/21/2009
Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a
little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond
DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the
abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate
for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how
much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the
job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending
upon what was needed.
Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for the
KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as needed
with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the
elevator about an inch.
What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high energy
air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways
that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the
elevator are:
1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a
different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a
combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a
judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough
power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down.
Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect.
B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it
and over control because I can's feel anything."
I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the landing
flare?
I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a
better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land
it safely and consistently.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
===================================================
---
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the proficiency required to land it where you need to.
I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point.
Just my 2 cents.
Galin
N819PR
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> KIS-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
12/21/2009
Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending upon what was needed.
Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as needed with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the elevator about an inch.
What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the elevator are:
1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down. Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect.
B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything."
I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the landing flare?
I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land it safely and consistently.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge."
=
---
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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Hello Galin,
I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit.
Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight landing characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also, I have noted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's, engines, empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two airframes were assembled just alike, not to mention the different pilot abilities.
I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his own and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I wouldn't try!
Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you flown Rich's TR-1?
[quote] Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts?
When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always power off and touch down with full flaps.
Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools. Traffic patterns are almost cross countries.
About the only way to get a power off approach is to have an engine fail, and declare an emergency!
Tim
N52TY TR-1
---
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Flyinisfun(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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Hi OC,
I'm sorry I didn't answer you before now, got side tracked. You asked how much power (RPM) I was carrying on landing. Since I put the plane back in the air, about 3 hrs ago and about 4 landings I have been carrying about 900 RPM down final and letting it settle in. I am still landing on a two mile runway but am always in the 1st mile to complete stop. I bleed the power off when I see I'm in the slot and about 50 ft. high. By what I see concerning the VG I think I'm going to try that and see what happens. Rich wanted to see my weights and balance sheet of which I'm got to find in my files. As soon as I can I will send it on but it may be after New Years as I have family coming in. I got the transponder replaced and it is working great. Just need more flying, What's your comment on my numbers OC.
Thanks,
Jesse
All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the proficiency required to land it where you need to.
I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point.
Just my 2 cents.
Galin
N819PR
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
12/21/2009
Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending upon what was needed.
Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as needed with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the elevator about an inch.
What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the elevator are:
1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down. Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect.
B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything."
I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the landing flare?
I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land it safely and consistently.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge."
=
---
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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I have never flown a TR-1 so I can't say a word about it's characteristics. But my TR-4 with the VG's on the elevator feels much more solid until touchdown with the engine at idle than it ever did. An approach at 80KIAS and actual touchdown at 65KIAS is significantly easier and more comfortable now.
Galin
N819PR
PS: I loved our comment of "Traffic patterns are almost cross countries". Sounds like flying here in El Salvador. ;o)
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 8:08 PM, F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:
[quote] Hello Galin,
I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit.
Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight landing characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also, I have noted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's, engines, empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two airframes were assembled just alike, not to mention the different pilot abilities.
I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his own and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I wouldn't try!
Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you flown Rich's TR-1?
[quote] Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts?
When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always power off and touch down with full flaps.
Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools. Traffic patterns are almost cross countries.
About the only way to get a power off approach is to have an engine fail, and declare an emergency!
Tim
N52TY TR-1
---
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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PS: I always land power off and full flaps unless the POH states different. This gives me the slowest airspeed/groundspeed for touchdown. One of the few times excess speed is NOT a good thing. Vne is the other time. ;o)
Galin
N819PR
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 8:08 PM, F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:
[quote] Hello Galin,
I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit.
Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight landing characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also, I have noted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's, engines, empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two airframes were assembled just alike, not to mention the different pilot abilities.
I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his own and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I wouldn't try!
Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you flown Rich's TR-1?
[quote] Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts?
When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always power off and touch down with full flaps.
Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools. Traffic patterns are almost cross countries.
About the only way to get a power off approach is to have an engine fail, and declare an emergency!
Tim
N52TY TR-1
---
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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12/22/2009
Hello Galin, You wrote: "I try to make every landing without engine power to
stay proficient in this
region of the flight envelope."
I am glad that you raised this issue. If the airplane and the landing
pattern will permit it this is also my preferred landing technique in a
general aviation airplane. It provides the bonus of frequent practice engine
out landings.
However there are some airplanes where trying to make every approach and
landing to touchdown without engine power is not feasible -- I believe the
original design KIS TR-1 is one of them. Here is why:
In addition to the three methods that I mentioned earlier for keeping higher
energy air flowing consistently over the KIS TR-1 elevator there is a fourth
method -- that is to make a faster approach and flare. But to avoid a
possible sudden nose pitch down and harsh touch down one must ensure that
the flare is not done too high. This requires getting into ground effect
with that excess airspeed and results in a significant float down the
runway.
So here is how I try to make normal landings in the KIS TR-1. I fly downwind
at 1,000 feet AGL, at 90 KIAS (Knots Indicated Air Speed), this takes about
1,800 engine RPM, until abeam the touch down point. Then I bring the engine
back to idle RPM (which is between 850 and 950 RPM) and hold altitude until
the airspeed slows to 80 KIAS when I lower one notch of flaps and start a
descent. During this descent, based on my judgement I turn base, lower full
flaps, turn to final, and slow to 75 KIAS. Some where on final after slowing
to 75 KIAS I increase the engine RPM to around 1,050 and leave it there
until I ease the power back to idle RPM after touchdown or just a few inches
above touchdown. I recognize that this technique will probably not get me to
the runway if I experience an engine failure on final and I consider this an
acceptable risk.
I also recognize that I need some engine out landing practice so here is my
technique for that: Somewhere in the vicinity of the intended landing field
I bring the engine RPM back to idle and slow to 80 KIAS. I maneuver the
airplane and lower flaps as needed in increments in an attempt to bring me
to a flare point still at 80 KIAS. If I am skillfull enough (this comes with
practice) I can float along close enough to the surface in ground effect to
permit an acceptable touchdown airspeed without a sudden nose down pitch
movement. My thinking is that in an actual off airport forced landing I
would rather impact what ever is at the far end of the selected field at a
slow speed than stall in at the near end of the field by making my approach
airspeed too slow or flaring too high.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
======================================================
All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using
a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When
(note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the
proficiency required to land it where you need to.
I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this
region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine
adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point.
Just my 2 cents.
Galin
N819PR
=============================================================
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | 12/21/2009
Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a
little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond
DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from
the
abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to
compensate
for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and
how
much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do
the
job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane
depending
upon what was needed.
Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for
the
KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as
needed
with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the
elevator about an inch.
What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high
energy
air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways
that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the
elevator are:
1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a
different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a
combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a
judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough
power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down.
Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground
effect.
B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with
it
and over control because I can's feel anything."
I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the
landing
flare?
I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a
better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land
it safely and consistently.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
|
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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12/22/2009
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
1) "What's your comment on my numbers OC." and "......I have been carrying
about 900 RPM down final and letting it settle in."
What is your engine idle RPM at 500 feet per minute rate of descent with
full flaps? I feel that you need to carry some engine RPM above idle during
the flare and down to within inches of touchdown or after touchdown. Just
how much RPM above idle is determined through experience with your airplane
and it can vary with airplane weight and field density altitude.
2) "I bleed the power off when I see I'm in the slot and about 50 ft. high."
This can be a real gotcha and lead to a sudden nose pitch down and a harsh
touchdown as a result of loss of high energy air flowing over the elevator.
In order to manage a good touchdown you need to be extremely skilled with
both throttle and stick movement to start pulling back engine power that
high in the air. My technique (see my separate response to Galin) is to set
some small engine power setting above idle prior to the flare and not reduce
power until after touchdown or just a few inches before touchdown.
Realize that ground effect is considered to start at about one half of the
airplane's wing span. Since the wing span of the KIS TR-1 is about 23 feet
you are not in ground effect until the wing is about 12 feet above the
surface.
3) "Just need more flying,......"
Don't we all.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
==================================================
---
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kentpyle(at)iland.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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Galin, Same story here. Kent
[quote] ---
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