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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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 Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:41 am Post subject: "engineers" |
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At 07:25 PM 12/24/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | First, Merry Christmas everyone.
Second, George,
I personally have, in many ways, similar feelings to Bob towards
Engineers. It is not the engineers fault exactly but it seems there
are a lot of jobs out there that have little or nothing to do with
engineering that people, usually in human resources, have decreed
can only be filled by an engineer. There also seems a certain
snobbishness among many engineers. Looking at your signature you are
apparently a mechanical engineer, working as a pilot, giving an
opinion on batteries so it would seem your qualifications to discuss
batteries is no greater than anyone else.
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Exactly! I'd have to review any words I've written that
seem to denigrate engineers in general. I don't harbor
such notions now and I don't recall having done so in the
past. What I have decried is the manner in which the
potential for creativity while expanding personal horizons
is quashed by the business models and policies of company
management. Beech was very good at turning potentially
good designers into paper pushers.
When I retired from Beech, the VP of engineering shook
my hand . . . congratulated me and asked, "Who do we
tap now to do the things you've been doing for us?"
I looked over at my chief scientist with raise eyebrows.
He shrugged. Out of 800+ engineers (I presume most if not
all were degreed) neither he nor I knew of one individual
who could step into what I'd been doing for the past 13
years.
While acquisition of a diploma can be a solid foundation
for launching a career, too often we find careers molded
more by policy, procedure, and opportunity (or lack of it).
I was exceedingly fortunate that my first jobs offered
boundless opportunity. My last job didn't offer opportunity,
I had to MAKE it my self.
So like the once-great Duracell brand, perhaps well find
that Beech is no longer worthy of the marketplace position
it once held so capably. I've counseled many young bucks
fresh out of school to be cognizant of their progress
in ANY direction. When progress stops . . . take action.
There was one promising fellow who was interviewing for
a job at Beech to whom I suggested he find a company
with no more than 100 employees. "Be a big fish in a
small pond", I suggested . . . and explained why based
on my own career success.
He didn't come to work for us. That was about 10
years ago. I trust his horizons run out further today
than what we could have offered him at Beech.
Bob . . .
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ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: "engineers" |
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There has been a general and profound decay and collapse of leadership
throughout the United States over the past few decades. Compare the 1960s
(when I was growing up) to now. Then: Man on the moon in 8 years; Now:
years to produce a rocket that doesn't do more than the Saturn 5. Then:
Build the world's best university and freeway system in California; Now: sit
around arguing as those same systems decay into mediocrity. Then: exercise
fiscal prudence in banking to supply credit for business progress; Now:
exercise wild and greedy schemes to ruin the world economy. Then: Start a
stupid war half way around the world for nothing. Now: oh, wait, some
things remain the same.
This is, of course, far beyond engineers. I don't see any permanent
improvement happening to our leadership either, most everybody has become
hooked on stupid pills. That leaves it to individuals, as Bob N. put.
And why not? That's where we started nearly 400 years ago, individuals
banding together and bettering their own lot.
In my professional life I'm a water resources engineer doing numerical
modeling for a large state agency. Leadership has declined over the last 20
years to where it's impossible to get anything quality done through
management. But instead of waiting for them to realize what the problems are
and providing support, we are moving ahead with crowd-sourcing to check
data, review source code, etc. This email list and other forums are a form
of the same thing: individuals getting together on our own to improve things
for everybody. The need is the same, just the technology different from the
Pilgrims.
Ralph Finch
Davis, California
RV-9A QB SA
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4716 (20091225) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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ulflyer(at)verizon.net
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: "engineers" |
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Since this decay and collapse is so wide spread could it be
attributed to the quality of water we consume today.
jerb
At 08:30 AM 12/25/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: |
<ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
There has been a general and profound decay and collapse of leadership
throughout the United States over the past few decades. Compare the 1960s
(when I was growing up) to now. Then: Man on the moon in 8 years; Now:
years to produce a rocket that doesn't do more than the Saturn 5. Then:
Build the world's best university and freeway system in California; Now: sit
around arguing as those same systems decay into mediocrity. Then: exercise
fiscal prudence in banking to supply credit for business progress; Now:
exercise wild and greedy schemes to ruin the world economy. Then: Start a
stupid war half way around the world for nothing. Now: oh, wait, some
things remain the same.
This is, of course, far beyond engineers. I don't see any permanent
improvement happening to our leadership either, most everybody has become
hooked on stupid pills. That leaves it to individuals, as Bob N. put.
And why not? That's where we started nearly 400 years ago, individuals
banding together and bettering their own lot.
In my professional life I'm a water resources engineer doing numerical
modeling for a large state agency. Leadership has declined over the last 20
years to where it's impossible to get anything quality done through
management. But instead of waiting for them to realize what the problems are
and providing support, we are moving ahead with crowd-sourcing to check
data, review source code, etc. This email list and other forums are a form
of the same thing: individuals getting together on our own to improve things
for everybody. The need is the same, just the technology different from the
Pilgrims.
Ralph Finch
Davis, California
RV-9A QB SA
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4716 (20091225) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
|
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Eric M. Jones
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Engineers |
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I completely agree in spirit with Bob and Ralph (BTW Ralph...wasn't it Germans who designed the Saturn V?).
But the history of the US (and the World) was always like this. Read Anti-Intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter. America is a complicated place. The European Age of Enlightenment spawned our Founding Fathers whose clear vision created our land. While the anti-intellectuals and religious zealots were being thrown out of Europe and arrived on, for example, the Mayflower. Early history says that Massachusetts produced Yankee craftsmen and engineers who LEFT to spread out over the country. NYC produced financiers and business people who STAYED. This says a lot.
America became the destination for all the teeming anti-intellectuals of those foreign shores. This is distrust of Intellectuals is hardly unique. The first thing any tyrant or dictator knows is to line up the intellectuals and engineers against the wall and shoot them.
But I am not so displeased as many. Years ago I read an opinion piece in Design News (or such) from a guy who earned college spending money by buying old cars, fixing them up and selling them. His roommate, on the other hand, bought and sold cars but HIRED other people to do the wrench turning. His roommate made all the money. So who do you think added more value to the world…Bob and Ralph and designers and engineers, or the owners of Beechcraft who wouldn’t know one end of a soldering iron from the other?
Everybody plays a part in the great carnival.
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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: "engineers" |
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At 10:35 AM 12/27/2009, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
I completely agree in spirit with Bob and Ralph . . .
<snip>
But I am not so displeased as many. Years ago I read an opinion piece in Design News (or such) from a guy who earned college spending money by buying old cars, fixing them up and selling them. His roommate, on the other hand, bought and sold cars but HIRED other people to do the wrench turning. His roommate made all the money. So who do you think added more value to the world? Bob and Ralph and designers and engineers, or the owners of Beechcraft who wouldn't know one end of a soldering iron from the other?
I think we're talking about different things.
A robust free-market in a civilized society
NEEDS organizers . . . these individuals can
perceive cause/effect/opportunity over a broad
range of disciplines. They may not be expertly
talented in many of them but they have an
understanding as to where they all fit into the
larger picture . . . and how to select the best
practitioners of those talents to fill a niche
in the grand scheme. Our teachers like Lear,
Wallace, Gates, Johnson, Edison, Ford, Kettering,
et. als. come to mind in this regard.
These folks were/are absolutely dependent upon those
who fill a host of niches . . . they sought out the
best of their lot. The important difference between the
successful grand scheme and the unsuccessful
grand flop is how all ingredients are combined
in the crafting of recipes for success. Many of
the "grunts" that worked with and for them could
not begin to do what the boss does . . . but the
boss couldn't do what THEY did either . . .
Judgement as to who adds the most value to any
endeavor (or the world at large) based on their
personal cash-flows is irrelevant. It ignores
the fact that while a skill-set has market value
based on supply, demand and contribution . . . in
the successful grand scheme, all skills at all
levels must be artfully selected and nurtured.
I recall a story in a trade journal about out-sourcing
problems with the B-787. The author was noting how
a shortage of a few relatively inexpensive parts could
bring a $billion$ production line to a halt. Similarly,
I'd bet that each of Kelly Johnson's staff from janitor
to program managers at the Skunk Works were all selected
for excellence at their respective skills along with
their willingness and ability to move the project
forward. Loss of any one of THEM would have presented
the organizers with an important problem to resolve.
My disparaging remarks about the state of engineering
departments are necessarily limited to what I've
observed as a both an employee and a provider of
goods and services various factions of the aviation community.
I've witnessed pitiful waste of potential talent in
activities all striving for successful status in the
constellation of grand schemes, but a few stellar
exceptions come to mind. One in particular:
http://tinyurl.com/ya63jgj
The first time I saw this airplane I was consulting for
a potential supplier of flap extension systems. The
prototype was well along and had an engine hung on
it. The entire operation probably didn't total 20 people.
All wore lots of hats.
In a little metal building on a small, remote airport,
a few folks were practicing their art with great
skill. BSME, PhDEE? MBA? MSAE? Did they learn their
skill in the shadows of master craftsmen? Haven't a
clue . . .
While sitting around their conference table, reading
their specifications, looking at the craftsmanship
on the shop floor . . . it didn't occur to me to
even wonder if they were in possession of proper
'credentials'. Their qualifications for the task
were self-evident.
When we delivered a flap system that functioned
as advertised some months later, I hope our
qualifications for the task were equally self-
evident. Bottom line is that the value of work-product
over time is the ultimate gage by which competency
can be judged. A dozen diplomas are of little
value if the holder cannot demonstrate competency
in meeting customer requirements. Further, a
high degree of competency as either manager,
organizer, designer, builder or janitor may
have little connection with what that individual
learned in school.
I hope it's clear that I have no animosity for
engineers degreed or otherwise. I am saddened and
often angered by what I perceive as incompetent,
technically ignorant, policy and procedure driven
management that squanders potentially valuable human
resources while wondering in amazement why their
stature in the marketplace is slipping.
I believe the ghosts of our teachers who walk the
isles and stalk the conference rooms are more
saddened than I . . .
Bob . . .
[quote][b]
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ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: "engineers" |
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Now let's update this anecdote for 21st century America.
The roommate buys old cars and hires the cheapest labor he can find, undocumented immigrants, to fix the cars. He pays them below minimum wage and collects taxes which he never reports, threatening the workers to turn them into ICE if they complain. He applies for and receives government bailout money while also taking in venture capital to take his company public. Administrative tasks are outsourced to India, and his parts come from Chinese knockoff firms. Once he goes public with an IPO he cashes out, along with the VCs, and leaves the company $3 Billion richer. A year the company goes bankrupt because of vague rumors of federal investigations.
OK, this is not the correct venue to discuss this sort of thing. I'm the biggest complainer of abuse of this email list and now I'm guilty. Please don't reply to the list about this thread...if you want to continue we'll find another venue.
RF
On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
[quote]
But I am not so displeased as many. Years ago I read an opinion piece in Design News (or such) from a guy who earned college spending money by buying old cars, fixing them up and selling them. His roommate, on the other hand, bought and sold cars but HIRED other people to do the wrench turning. His roommate made all the money.
[b]
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Speedy11(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: "engineers" |
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So, Ralph.
It's okay for you to post unrelated remarks, but now (because you said so) nobody else should respond.
Hmmm ... you got your shot in, but nobody can counter.
I suggest responding with "do not archive" is more appropriate. In fact, such an addition may have been appropriate for your posting.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
| Quote: | OK, this is not the correct venue to discuss this sort of thing. I'm the
biggest complainer of abuse of this email list and now I'm guilty. Please
don't reply to the list about this thread...if you want to continue we'll
find another venue. |
[quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: "engineers" |
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OK, this is not the correct venue to discuss this sort of thing. I'm the
biggest complainer of abuse of this email list and now I'm guilty. Please
don't reply to the list about this thread...if you want to continue we'll
find another venue . . .
Is this not a venue for the exchange of simple-ideas
and their incorporation into recipes for success?
When an idea/recipe is offered, is it not useful to
gage potential quality of the idea against the demonstrated
history of the offerer?
While few of us here on the List have credentials framed
on our walls, we ALL have experiences and talents that
qualify us as teachers. Depending on the sum total of
life experiences and demonstrated achievements, some of us
have more to offer than others. But no combination of
simple-ideas into any recipe for success becomes less
valuable just because the offerer "is not qualified"
based on some arbitrary standard.
An argument was proposed that lack of recognized credential
placed the value of ideas or the integrity/motivations
of some offerers in doubt. I'll suggest that comparative study
of demonstrable achievement versus credential-based stature
in this community is useful to the goals of this List.
Bob . . .
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