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bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

I’ve been kicking around what I think would be a suitable level of backup instrumentation for IFR flight in our RV-10’s and I haven’t decided so I’d like to spark a conversation about it.  I understand it’s up their with primer wars but… I’m curious as to others thoughts on this.  

   

<![if !supportLists]>1)       <![endif]>Would you consider dual efis displays from the same manufacturer with two independent ahars and magnetometers sufficient instrumentation?  Eg dual afs-4500 units w/o additional “steam gauges”.  Are software glitches that might affect both units simultaneously really worth considering?  

<![if !supportLists]>2)       <![endif]>Would a single ahars efis with additional gauges for airspeed, altitude, and some form of attitude/bank such as the ADI from trutrak or the newer RC Allen unit http://www.pca.aero/detail/9372/Instrument/R_C__ALLEN/RCA2600_Digital_Gyro/ be better/worse than above?  

<![if !supportLists]>3)       <![endif]>Same scenario above but substitute another efis such as a dynon instead of “steam style gauges” – realestate becomes an issue and is it feasible if the unit is stuck all the way on the far right of the panel.  If one puts Geoff’s carbon fiber panel in is it reasonable to read the dynon from the left seat if it’s on the far right of the panel?  Any different than approaches from the right seat in spam cans?  

<![if !supportLists]>4)       <![endif]>Is having all electric/battery powered instrumentation really a form of backup?  What about lightning strikes?  Is it reasonable to think that any of your all electric attitude information will survive w/o vaccum gauges.  Today there really isn’t much of an alternative?  

<![if !supportLists]>5)       <![endif]>Would you consider the electrical system to play a big part of this decision as in Single Alt-Single Batt, Dual Alt-Single Batt, Dual-Dual?  Obviously most the efis/attitude units can contain their own backup battery so is the redundancy in the entire electrical system a “must have” or KISS single-single?  

   

Personally I’m leaning towards the #1 solution above with the #5 electrical system designs not really playing much of a part in the overall decision.  I’d hate to one day have some form of issue though and go “geez wish I’d thrown the extra $3k at it as I’m sweating in the clouds with a dark panel”.  But anything that roasts your electrical system is going to most likely get all of it backup included.  Has this happened?  

   

Thanks,  

   

-Ben Westfall  

   

   

       [quote][b]

luis(at)cristabelle.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Curious to the answers here.  



-Luis R. (aka Manny)



On Dec 28, 2009, at 7:34 PM, Ben Westfall wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I’ve been kicking around what I think would be a suitable level of backup instrumentation for IFR flight in our RV-10’s and I haven’t decided so I’d like to spark a conversation about it.  I understand it’s up their with primer wars but… I’m curious as to others thoughts on this.

 

1)       Would you consider dual efis displays from the same manufacturer with two independent ahars and magnetometers sufficient instrumentation?  Eg dual afs-4500 units w/o additional “steam gauges”.  Are software glitches that might affect both units simultaneously really worth considering?

2)       Would a single ahars efis with additional gauges for airspeed, altitude, and some form of attitude/bank such as the ADI from trutrak or the newer RC Allen unithttp://www.pca.aero/detail/9372/Instrument/R_C__ALLEN/RCA2600_Digital_Gyro/ be better/worse than above?

3)       Same scenario above but substitute another efis such as a dynon instead of “steam style gauges” – realestate becomes an issue and is it feasible if the unit is stuck all the way on the far right of the panel.  If one puts Geoff’s carbon fiber panel in is it reasonable to read the dynon from the left seat if it’s on the far right of the panel?  Any different than approaches from the right seat in spam cans?

4)       Is having all electric/battery powered instrumentation really a form of backup?  What about lightning strikes?  Is it reasonable to think that any of your all electric attitude information will survive w/o vaccum gauges.  Today there really isn’t much of an alternative?

5)       Would you consider the electrical system to play a big part of this decision as in Single Alt-Single Batt, Dual Alt-Single Batt, Dual-Dual?  Obviously most the efis/attitude units can contain their own backup battery so is the redundancy in the entire electrical system a “must have” or KISS single-single?

 

Personally I’m leaning towards the #1 solution above with the #5 electrical system designs not really playing much of a part in the overall decision.  I’d hate to one day have some form of issue though and go “geez wish I’d thrown the extra $3k at it as I’m sweating in the clouds with a dark panel”.  But anything that roasts your electrical system is going to most likely get all of it backup included.  Has this happened?

 

Thanks,

 

-Ben Westfall

 

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  



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 [quote][b]

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Ben,  

            As someone completely unqualified to answer your question in full I will take a stab at a partial answer concerning usability of a third screen on the -10 panel. I chose the G900x plus a back up Dynon D100 centered in front of the Co-Pilot’s seat.   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CA87E2.C8B98300[/img]  

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01CA87E2.C8B98300[/img]  

   

            In setting BARO or acknowledging on the D100 I have to use the far right button and find it to be reachable w/o any difficulty. Do I want to enter in flight plans at that arms length? No. Am I able to refer to that screen for all the required flight info? Absolutely yes. In an ideal world I would definitely have placed a simple metal wedge to have the D100 tilt more in my direction but still completely usable by the co-pilot. I think that would be the most preferred 3 screen set up. I do like my D100 with integrated Back Up battery as it seems like a good stand alone back up choice.           

I don’t think I would ever trust two completely independent systems from the same manufacturer for obvious reasons.  

   

Good luck,  

Robin  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall

 Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 4:34 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR  

  

  

   

I’ve been kicking around what I think would be a suitable level of backup instrumentation for IFR flight in our RV-10’s and I haven’t decided so I’d like to spark a conversation about it.  I understand it’s up their with primer wars but… I’m curious as to others thoughts on this.  

   

<![if !supportLists]>1)     <![endif]>Would you consider dual efis displays from the same manufacturer with two independent ahars and magnetometers sufficient instrumentation?  Eg dual afs-4500 units w/o additional “steam gauges”.  Are software glitches that might affect both units simultaneously really worth considering?  

<![if !supportLists]>2)     <![endif]>Would a single ahars efis with additional gauges for airspeed, altitude, and some form of attitude/bank such as the ADI from trutrak or the newer RC Allen unit http://www.pca.aero/detail/9372/Instrument/R_C__ALLEN/RCA2600_Digital_Gyro/ be better/worse than above?  

<![if !supportLists]>3)     <![endif]>Same scenario above but substitute another efis such as a dynon instead of “steam style gauges” – realestate becomes an issue and is it feasible if the unit is stuck all the way on the far right of the panel.  If one puts Geoff’s carbon fiber panel in is it reasonable to read the dynon from the left seat if it’s on the far right of the panel?  Any different than approaches from the right seat in spam cans?  

<![if !supportLists]>4)     <![endif]>Is having all electric/battery powered instrumentation really a form of backup?  What about lightning strikes?  Is it reasonable to think that any of your all electric attitude information will survive w/o vaccum gauges.  Today there really isn’t much of an alternative?  

<![if !supportLists]>5)     <![endif]>Would you consider the electrical system to play a big part of this decision as in Single Alt-Single Batt, Dual Alt-Single Batt, Dual-Dual?  Obviously most the efis/attitude units can contain their own backup battery so is the redundancy in the entire electrical system a “must have” or KISS single-single?  

   

Personally I’m leaning towards the #1 solution above with the #5 electrical system designs not really playing much of a part in the overall decision.  I’d hate to one day have some form of issue though and go “geez wish I’d thrown the extra $3k at it as I’m sweating in the clouds with a dark panel”.  But anything that roasts your electrical system is going to most likely get all of it backup included.  Has this happened?  

   

Thanks,  

   

-Ben Westfall  

   

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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Brave.



I think I agree with your assessment - #1 seems pretty sound if the 

actual failure scenarios are worked out, practiced, and known. That is, 

if EFIS 1 or AHRS #2 fails, or the 430W GPS fails, what do I do to 

identify the failure, isolate the failed component, and fly with what's 

left. Maybe all that is obvious but not to this 

yet-to-fly-with-an-EFIS-in-IFR pilot. Am I comfortable with it? No. But 

I think many of us will become comfortable with that kind of setup.



The more I think about it, backup batteries seem like a much better 

approach to electron backup over dual/dual. I'm building dual/dual just 

because I like the idea of an all electric airplane that can sit out on 

the ramp, powered up, communicating and plotting weather until the 

battery dies - and still being able to start it up and go. Just because.



I don't think many of us will spend much time in cloud sweating the $3k 

we didn't spend on something. Fear inducing failures are going to be 

very, very rare. When it occurs, it's Mayday time. And you can either 

keep it upright long enough to survive, or not. "Gee, I wish I had the 

GPS option on my ADI..." just isn't going to be a concern... or maybe it 

will.



The "electromagnetic pulse" issue is a doozy. If it's fission or fusion, 

induced, who cares? If it's Mother doing her thing and you get unlucky, 

hmmm. All electric airplane means you are hoping something survives. AS 

and Alt steam guages means few brain cycles needs to be wasted there but 

I need to know what straight ahead is. Waiting for the EFIS to re-boot 

is too long. If the ADI keeps working, that could do it. Any GPS course 

readout with steam guage AS and Alt could keep me afloat long enough to 

survive. Something electrical has to survive the strike. Or you need to 

manage your flying so you don't get struck.



The work 'survive' seems important to me. Planning for "partial failure 

- complete mission" scenarios seems wrong minded to me. Everything 

needed is expected to work all the time. If something fails, it's a full 

blown emergency requiring only survival. The Cirrus chute starts making 

sense in this environment. "Electron failure in deep IMC, hit the silk!"



Interesting stuff.



Bill "stuck in the house with a cold soaked shop" Watson

Ben Westfall wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I’ve been kicking around what I think would be a suitable level of 

 backup instrumentation for IFR flight in our RV-10’s and I haven’t 

 decided so I’d like to spark a conversation about it. I understand 

 it’s up their with primer wars but… I’m curious as to others thoughts 

 on this.



 1) Would you consider dual efis displays from the same manufacturer 

 with two independent ahars and magnetometers sufficient 

 instrumentation? Eg dual afs-4500 units w/o additional “steam gauges”. 

 Are software glitches that might affect both units simultaneously 

 really worth considering?



 2) Would a single ahars efis with additional gauges for airspeed, 

 altitude, and some form of attitude/bank such as the ADI from trutrak 

 or the newer RC Allen unit 

 http://www.pca.aero/detail/9372/Instrument/R_C__ALLEN/RCA2600_Digital_Gyro/ 

 be better/worse than above?



 3) Same scenario above but substitute another efis such as a dynon 

 instead of “steam style gauges” – realestate becomes an issue and is 

 it feasible if the unit is stuck all the way on the far right of the 

 panel. If one puts Geoff’s carbon fiber panel in is it reasonable to 

 read the dynon from the left seat if it’s on the far right of the 

 panel? Any different than approaches from the right seat in spam cans?



 4) Is having all electric/battery powered instrumentation really a 

 form of backup? What about lightning strikes? Is it reasonable to 

 think that any of your all electric attitude information will survive 

 w/o vaccum gauges. Today there really isn’t much of an alternative?



 5) Would you consider the electrical system to play a big part of this 

 decision as in Single Alt-Single Batt, Dual Alt-Single Batt, 

 Dual-Dual? Obviously most the efis/attitude units can contain their 

 own backup battery so is the redundancy in the entire electrical 

 system a “must have” or KISS single-single?



 Personally I’m leaning towards the #1 solution above with the #5 

 electrical system designs not really playing much of a part in the 

 overall decision. I’d hate to one day have some form of issue though 

 and go “geez wish I’d thrown the extra $3k at it as I’m sweating in 

 the clouds with a dark panel”. But anything that roasts your 

 electrical system is going to most likely get all of it backup 

 included. Has this happened?



 Thanks,



 -Ben Westfall

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Ben Westfall wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		                     

I’ve been kicking around what I think would be a suitable level of backup instrumentation for IFR flight in our RV-10’s and I haven’t decided so I’d like to spark a conversation about it.  I understand it’s up their with primer wars but… I’m curious as to others thoughts on this.   

    

1)         Would you consider dual efis displays from the same manufacturer with two independent ahars and magnetometers sufficient instrumentation?  Eg dual afs-4500 units w/o additional “steam gauges”.   

 	
 That's the route that I'm taking.  Dual MGL Odyssey's with dual compass/AHRS.  Engine monitoring will be shared between the two systems which can control both radios.

  	  Quote: 	
		        

  Are software glitches that might affect both units simultaneously really worth considering?   

 	
 Not might .... will if from the same source.  The software glitches should be found cleared rapidly so this isn't one of my concerns.

  	  Quote: 	
		        

   

2)         Would a single ahars efis with additional gauges for airspeed, altitude, and some form of attitude/bank such as the ADI from trutrak or the newer RC Allen unit http://www.pca.aero/detail/9372/Instrument/R_C__ALLEN/RCA2600_Digital_Gyro/ be better/worse than above?   

 	
 For me, the decision was cost ..... another Odyssey with compass/AHRS was almost a wash.

  	  Quote: 	
		        

   

3)         Same scenario above but substitute another efis such as a dynon instead of “steam style gauges” – realestate becomes an issue and is it feasible if the unit is stuck all the way on the far right of the panel.  If one puts Geoff’s carbon fiber panel in is it reasonable to read the dynon from the left seat if it’s on the far right of the panel?  Any different than approaches from the right seat in spam cans?   

 	
 Can't comment ....  no experience.  However, my second Odyssey sits in front of the co-pilot so I may be uncomfortable looking way over there but it's amazing what you'll do if you need to.

  	  Quote: 	
		        

   

4)         Is having all electric/battery powered instrumentation really a form of backup?   

 	
 Sure. why not?  It's a second set of information.

  	  Quote: 	
		        

  What about lightning strikes?  Is it reasonable to think that any of your all electric attitude information will survive w/o vaccum gauges.  Today there really isn’t much of an alternative?   

 	
 Lightning strikes, meteor strikes, labor strikes .... way down in the statistical mud.  Probably down with fatal heart attacks while flying.  Yep, they do happen, but you'll never leave the ground without some risk.

  	  Quote: 	
		        

   

5)         Would you consider the electrical system to play a big part of this decision as in Single Alt-Single Batt, Dual Alt-Single Batt, Dual-Dual?  Obviously most the efis/attitude units can contain their own backup battery so is the redundancy in the entire electrical system a “must have” or KISS single-single?   

 	
 I'm using a backup battery from a EXIT light.  Good for about 2 hrs of use after the main power fails.  One for each Odyssey.  I like the KISS stuff, and don't have a dual buss installation.

  	  Quote: 	
		        

   

    

Personally I’m leaning towards the #1 solution above with the #5 electrical system designs not really playing much of a part in the overall decision.  I’d hate to one day have some form of issue though and go “geez wish I’d thrown the extra $3k at it as I’m sweating in the clouds with a dark panel”.  But anything that roasts your electrical system is going to most likely get all of it backup included.  Has this happened?   

 	
 Shucks .... seems like there was an airliner that went completely dark awhile back.  Don't know what the problem or the outcome was.  Sometimes crap happens.  The best plan is to minimize the potential failures and do the best you can with what comes up.  On another list they're talking about GPS outages ....... what's a Techy to do???

 Linn ..... just my approach .... YMMV!!!

 

 [quote]      

   

    

Thanks,   

    

-Ben Westfall   

    

    

    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

 href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

 href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

 href="http://www.howtocrimp.com">www.howtocrimp.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
 [b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

I'm a fan of building your primary system nice an robust, but

then keeping the backups a little more minimal.  Even Cirrus

uses round gauges as backups. I think it's nice to have something

that's not so reliant on software for a backup.  The ADI

seems to be a pretty good way to go, but honestly I was

just as happy with my Turn-n-bank that cost a lot less.

With a dual BUS system (with Dual Batteries) you can boot

up and get the weather and call for a clearance without

draining your cranking battery.  And, if your EFIS dies

(which pretty much EVERY model out there has been known to

do), if you have those cheap round gauges they're easy to

interpret.  You'll need all the help you can get on "easy".

If you have a complex backup system, you may not be savvy

enough with it unless you practice all the time, to program

and get out of it what you need.  IMHO, it's best to have a

good system, and know it well, and if that one dies, cry

uncle and fall to some easy to use backups and get on with

ATC and ask for some real help.  Continuing a trip won't

be your concern.   In my personal plane, my GNS480 is my

"backup" on a separate bus, along with an ADI, and I have

a round ASI and AI, and the compass.  That's more than

many planes have as a primary system, but I'm much less

versed in the GNS480, so I'd be significantly crippled

if I lost my EFIS.  Could I fly an approach and get home,

probably, but I'd be looking for the nearest easy airport

to land at VFR if possible.

So, be as generous as you can to yourself in getting a

real solid primary system, but then stick in a different

kind of backup....maybe round gauges, maybe a small

dynon, maybe an ADI.  Just make sure that whatever it is,

you don't have to learn how to use it when you actually

need it, because failures can happen to anyone.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

Bill Mauledriver Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>

 Brave.

 I think I agree with your assessment - #1 seems pretty sound if the 

 actual failure scenarios are worked out, practiced, and known. That is, 

 if EFIS 1 or AHRS #2 fails, or the 430W GPS fails, what do I do to 

 identify the failure, isolate the failed component, and fly with what's 

 left. Maybe all that is obvious but not to this 

 yet-to-fly-with-an-EFIS-in-IFR pilot. Am I comfortable with it? No. But 

 I think many of us will become comfortable with that kind of setup.

 The more I think about it, backup batteries seem like a much better 

 approach to electron backup over dual/dual. I'm building dual/dual just 

 because I like the idea of an all electric airplane that can sit out on 

 the ramp, powered up, communicating and plotting weather until the 

 battery dies - and still being able to start it up and go. Just because.

 I don't think many of us will spend much time in cloud sweating the $3k 

 we didn't spend on something. Fear inducing failures are going to be 

 very, very rare. When it occurs, it's Mayday time. And you can either 

 keep it upright long enough to survive, or not. "Gee, I wish I had the 

 GPS option on my ADI..." just isn't going to be a concern... or maybe it 

 will.

 The "electromagnetic pulse" issue is a doozy. If it's fission or fusion, 

 induced, who cares? If it's Mother doing her thing and you get unlucky, 

 hmmm. All electric airplane means you are hoping something survives. AS 

 and Alt steam guages means few brain cycles needs to be wasted there but 

 I need to know what straight ahead is. Waiting for the EFIS to re-boot 

 is too long. If the ADI keeps working, that could do it. Any GPS course 

 readout with steam guage AS and Alt could keep me afloat long enough to 

 survive. Something electrical has to survive the strike. Or you need to 

 manage your flying so you don't get struck.

 The work 'survive' seems important to me. Planning for "partial failure 

 - complete mission" scenarios seems wrong minded to me. Everything 

 needed is expected to work all the time. If something fails, it's a full 

 blown emergency requiring only survival. The Cirrus chute starts making 

 sense in this environment. "Electron failure in deep IMC, hit the silk!"

 Interesting stuff.

 Bill "stuck in the house with a cold soaked shop" Watson

 Ben Westfall wrote:

>

> I’ve been kicking around what I think would be a suitable level of 

> backup instrumentation for IFR flight in our RV-10’s and I haven’t 

> decided so I’d like to spark a conversation about it. I understand 

> it’s up their with primer wars but… I’m curious as to others thoughts 

> on this.

>

> 1) Would you consider dual efis displays from the same manufacturer 

> with two independent ahars and magnetometers sufficient 

> instrumentation? Eg dual afs-4500 units w/o additional “steam gauges”. 

> Are software glitches that might affect both units simultaneously 

> really worth considering?

>

> 2) Would a single ahars efis with additional gauges for airspeed, 

> altitude, and some form of attitude/bank such as the ADI from trutrak 

> or the newer RC Allen unit 

> http://www.pca.aero/detail/9372/Instrument/R_C__ALLEN/RCA2600_Digital_Gyro/ 

> be better/worse than above?

>

> 3) Same scenario above but substitute another efis such as a dynon 

> instead of “steam style gauges” – realestate becomes an issue and is 

> it feasible if the unit is stuck all the way on the far right of the 

> panel. If one puts Geoff’s carbon fiber panel in is it reasonable to 

> read the dynon from the left seat if it’s on the far right of the 

> panel? Any different than approaches from the right seat in spam cans?

>

> 4) Is having all electric/battery powered instrumentation really a 

> form of backup? What about lightning strikes? Is it reasonable to 

> think that any of your all electric attitude information will survive 

> w/o vaccum gauges. Today there really isn’t much of an alternative?

>

> 5) Would you consider the electrical system to play a big part of this 

> decision as in Single Alt-Single Batt, Dual Alt-Single Batt, 

> Dual-Dual? Obviously most the efis/attitude units can contain their 

> own backup battery so is the redundancy in the entire electrical 

> system a “must have” or KISS single-single?

>

> Personally I’m leaning towards the #1 solution above with the #5 

> electrical system designs not really playing much of a part in the 

> overall decision. I’d hate to one day have some form of issue though 

> and go “geez wish I’d thrown the extra $3k at it as I’m sweating in 

> the clouds with a dark panel”. But anything that roasts your 

> electrical system is going to most likely get all of it backup 

> included. Has this happened?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Ben Westfall

>

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Ben,Our -10 has your number one configuration.  Dual AFS EFIS with AFS AP.  Single large battery / alternator driving the electrical system.My thinking.  Each EFIS has it's own built-in backup battery and associated AHRS / electronic compass.  The backup for a common mode software failure is the AP.   It is able to hold heading and altitude using it's own electronics.  My thought is there would have to be a major problem to have both EFIS units go south at the same time (Software could do that).  The AP in stand alone mode would be a third level of backup.Lightning - I sure plan on not having that happen.  (I could be had on that!)  That would be a VERY bad day in my book.Just one opinion.  I am sure there are others.  I don't think there is any one right answer either.Jim C (N312F - Flying)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  I've been kicking around what I think would be a suitable level of backupinstrumentation for IFR flight in our RV-10's and I haven't decided so I'dlike to spark a conversation about it.  I understand it's up their withprimer wars but. I'm curious as to others thoughts on this.1)       Would you consider dual efis displays from the same manufacturerwith two independent ahars and magnetometers sufficient instrumentation? Egdual afs-4500 units w/o additional "steam gauges".  Are software glitchesthat might affect both units simultaneously really worth considering?2)       Would a single ahars efis with additional gauges for airspeed,altitude, and some form of attitude/bank such as the ADI from trutrak orthenewer RC Allen unithttp://www.pca.aero/detail/9372/Instrument/R_C__ALLEN/RCA2600_Digital_Gyro/be better/worse than above?3)       Same scenario above but substitute another efis such as a dynoninstead of "steam style gauges" - realestate becomes an issue and is itfeasible if the unit is stuck all the way on the far right of the panel. Ifone puts Geoff's carbon fiber panel in is it reasonable to read the dynonfrom the left seat if it's on the far right of the panel?  Any differentthan approaches from the right seat in spam cans?4)       Is having all electric/battery powered instrumentation really aform of backup?  What about lightning strikes?  Is it reasonable to thinkthat any of your all electric attitude information will survive w/o vaccumgauges.  Today there really isn't much of an alternative?5)       Would you consider the electrical system to play a big part ofthisdecision as in Single Alt-Single Batt, Dual Alt-Single Batt, Dual-Dual?Obviously most the efis/attitude units can contain their own backupbatteryso is the redundancy in the entire electrical system a "must have" or KISSsingle-single?Personally I'm leaning towards the #1 solution above with the #5electricalsystem designs not really playing much of a part in the overall decision.I'd hate to one day have some form of issue though and go "geez wish I'dthrown the extra $3k at it as I'm sweating in the clouds with a darkpanel".But anything that roasts your electrical system is going to most likelygetall of it backup included.  Has this happened?Thanks,-Ben Westfall   [quote][b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

I concur that flying IFR in IMC is a new experience with the EFIS. I bought

and installed a GRT Sport in my Glastar about 2 years before I had the 10

flying; I flew actual solid in the Glastar. Of Course I left the partial

panel gauges surrounding my EFIS. In addition I had a TT pictorial pilot AP.

My electrical system was primary and essential bus with single alternator

and one odyssey 680 and one 925 as essential. Both of my aircraft have panel

placard "EFIS FAILURE, Autopilot ON" if in IMC squawk 7700 tune 121.5 and

Mayday. The message is primarily there for my passengers but it does

illustrate the essential sequence of considerations. Obviously with a pilot

in the left seat as opposed to a passenger, a pilot would take more

considered actions to reduce electrical load and reboot the EFIS. Before we

put all our eggs in the EFIS basket , I suggest you peruse 

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/nwpilot's_tranatlantic_flight.htm

 



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bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Yes I've read that article a while back and actually I've kept thinking

about it which is one thing that prompted my questions to the list.



Tim your advice makes sense as always.  Don't loose sight of the goal.  Keep

your backups as simple as practical to getting on the ground and build your

primary systems robust enough to hopefully never have to do anything but

practice with your backups.



Thanks again,



-Ben



 

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msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

I'm doing a pair of AFS Advanced Decks with a Dynon D10A for backup.  All three have internal batteries also.



Michael



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks

Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 7:35 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR



Ben,

            As someone completely unqualified to answer your question in full I will take a stab at a partial answer concerning usability of a third screen on the -10 panel. I chose the G900x plus a back up Dynon D100 centered in front of the Co-Pilot's seat.





            In setting BARO or acknowledging on the D100 I have to use the far right button and find it to be reachable w/o any difficulty. Do I want to enter in flight plans at that arms length? No. Am I able to refer to that screen for all the required flight info? Absolutely yes. In an ideal world I would definitely have placed a simple metal wedge to have the D100 tilt more in my direction but still completely usable by the co-pilot. I think that would be the most preferred 3 screen set up. I do like my D100 with integrated Back Up battery as it seems like a good stand alone back up choice

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: Re: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

A D-10A with battery backup is sufficient for a backup. The only question is, will it reboot on it's battery if everything got fried. Unless you have a vacuum pump, electrically driven gyros and turn-and-banks are gone, as well. The only thing left is pitot & static - assuming you have something mechanical attached to them. A wet compass and flashlight would still work, of course.



Which begs the question - what are you doing in a lightning storm IMC at night. The actual odds are that you will be in a position to rapidly find VMC conditions. You should have an idea where the bottoms are and your position, because you always have a Sectional in your hand, right? A hand held 696 suddenly sounds like a good idea.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Oh, I should also mention that I will be using a 496 for weather which could act as a worse case tie breaker using their simulated panel page.



Michael



From: Michael Sausen On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:50 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR



I'm doing a pair of AFS Advanced Decks with a Dynon D10A for backup.  All three have internal batteries also.



Michael



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks

Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 7:35 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR



Ben,

            As someone completely unqualified to answer your question in full I will take a stab at a partial answer concerning usability of a third screen on the -10 panel. I chose the G900x plus a back up Dynon D100 centered in front of the Co-Pilot's seat.





            In setting BARO or acknowledging on the D100 I have to use the far right button and find it to be reachable w/o any difficulty. Do I want to enter in flight plans at that arms length? No. Am I able to refer to that screen for all the required flight info? Absolutely yes. In an ideal world I would definitely have placed a simple metal wedge to have the D100 tilt more in my direction but still completely usable by the co-pilot. I think that would be the most preferred 3 screen set up. I do like my D100 with integrated Back Up battery as it seems like a good stand alone back up choice

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Round gauges and a good handheld and some sort of Turn n bank

or horizon would be a great backup. Especially if your

Autopilot still works.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>

 

 A D-10A with battery backup is sufficient for a backup. The only

 question is, will it reboot on it's battery if everything got fried.

 Unless you have a vacuum pump, electrically driven gyros and

 turn-and-banks are gone, as well. The only thing left is pitot &

 static - assuming you have something mechanical attached to them. A

 wet compass and flashlight would still work, of course.

 

 Which begs the question - what are you doing in a lightning storm IMC

 at night. The actual odds are that you will be in a position to

 rapidly find VMC conditions. You should have an idea where the

 bottoms are and your position, because you always have a Sectional in

 your hand, right? A hand held 696 suddenly sounds like a good idea. 

 John

 

 -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing.

 Engine on floor &amp; Panel delivery soon. N711JG reserved

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79090#279090

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Tim, what's your latest assessment of the TT ADI as a backup 

instrument?  I know you've been ambivalent about the ADI versus a T&B.  

Wondering how you feel after hundreds of hours?



BTW, I've gone the round guage ASI & Alt with the ADI (and TT AP) 

finishing up the backup row.  The mini-format guages made it easier to 

fit than the big guages.



Bill



Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Round gauges and a good handheld and some sort of Turn n bank

 or horizon would be a great backup. Especially if your

 Autopilot still works.



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 j

ricksked(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

If I did it again I'd use the Mid Continent 2.5 ADI, that instrument is very compact and fully independent..I have their CDI for Nav backup tied to either the GPS or SL-30, I use it as a X reference in flight...the Loc/GS is super sweet...I do have the TT turn and bank....I don't like the lag it exhibits and I think their ADI is the same



Rick Sked

N246RS

---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

It's still a tough call.  Yeah, you can get some

VSI type info from it, but it isn't super fantastic.

You can't get real magnetic heading, but if you have

the GPS integration or built-in GPS, you can get

track.  You can get a built-in backup battery..that's

nice, but unfortunately I don't have that.  So, if you

do indeed deck it all out fully, it has some good value.

For me with no internal GPS and no backup battery,

it really doesn't value-add much.  One thing I did

like about my TNB was that it was shorter by a long

ways, so it mounted real easy.  The ADI is very long,

and inconvenient from a mounting standpoint with how

close to the subpanel it is.

So I'm still pretty ambivalent about it.  If I were

spending my money all over again, I'd probably just

get the TNB, because I don't think I'd spend the

extra....having a backup handheld GPS, iphone

GPS, or tablet with Bluetooth GPS would probably give

you plenty of navigation info for an emergency...the

TRK indication on the ADI won't be a big deal at that

point.  So all you get is TruTrak's version of an

attitude display and VSI.  I don't consider a VSI to

be terribly critical compared to the other instruments.

The attitude display is the big one, but you can

fly awful straight and level with only a compass and

turn n bank if you need to.  If it were a spinning

gyro Attitude indicator I'd be more inclined to

keep it, but I don't know that anyone makes a

real cheap one of those, especially in 2.25" size.

I'm real happy that those backups are all just tiny

round 2.25" instruments.  When I have tried to

fly Sans-Cheltons, I don't find that I need more

than a TNB, altitude indicator, and my GNS480 to

get places.  The GNS480 could be substituted for

pretty easily too, if you aren't planning to fly

a whole low approach.

Part of this decision is made more complicated by

the fact that even if you lost your primaries,

as long as you can get a vector from ATC and

hold straight and level, you should be able to

be a hundred miles away in 30 minutes, so in the

RV-10 you have pretty good access to a large number

of options as long as you can keep it in the air

for a few minutes.  Now if you want to talk about

losing your engine while IMC and losing your

primaries at the same time.....I don't know that

anything much can help you but doing a wings-level

gliding straight decent until you break out,

and a good prayer.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Bill Mauledriver Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>

 Tim, what's your latest assessment of the TT ADI as a backup 

 instrument?  I know you've been ambivalent about the ADI versus a T&B.  

 Wondering how you feel after hundreds of hours?

 BTW, I've gone the round guage ASI & Alt with the ADI (and TT AP) 

 finishing up the backup row.  The mini-format guages made it easier to 

 fit than the big guages.

 Bill

 Tim Olson wrote:

> 

>

> Round gauges and a good handheld and some sort of Turn n bank

> or horizon would be a great backup. Especially if your

> Autopilot still works.

>

> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

>

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

One thing I would add is that whatever backup you decide on, it's important to place it in a position that's easy for the pilot to use.  If the day comes when you really need that backup, it's going to be a stressful situation and you'll want as much as possible in your favor.  It's tempting to place the backup in front of right seat, but if you don't have a great view of it, it might as well not be there.

   

A D10 or ADI would be marginal for the pilot if optimized for the right seat.  I'd hate to fly an approach on the backup in any case, and having it way out of your field of view would make it even worse.  I placed my D10 immediately above and to the right of my primary, like this:

   

http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Installations/SaylorPlan.jpg

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

  140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

 

  [quote][b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: Re: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

With the discussion of what's on the panel should the electricity fail, has anyone thought about the trim? Do the 2-buss people have trim on their emergency buss?

Flying a partial panel approach without working trim is tough - I'd probably opt to fly the approach at whatever speed the trim was stuck at, rather than attempt to hold constant pitch pressure.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Absolutely necessary...I have mine on the e-bus.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>

 

 With the discussion of what's on the panel should the electricity

 fail, has anyone thought about the trim? Do the 2-buss people have

 trim on their emergency buss? Flying a partial panel approach without

 working trim is tough - I'd probably opt to fly the approach at

 whatever speed the trim was stuck at, rather than attempt to hold

 constant pitch pressure.

 

 -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79121#279121

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: suitable backup instrumentation for IFR

Still in the planning session, but it's on the E-bus.  For the marginal

amount of power it draws, there's really no benefit to moving off the

E-bus - but there's a whole lot of drawbacks to losing it.  



Same thing for LED cabin lights.  Having two hands to fly the airplane

in an emergency beats holding a flashlight in one hand, flipping charts

in the other, and flying the airplane with your knees.  They draw very

little power and the upside is much greater than the downside.



Phil





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