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rv8grover@verizon.net

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 2

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Is anyone using Automotive spark plugs with their electronic ignition on the IO-540 D5A4 engine?? 



If so, what is the part number?



I just dropped one of my UREM 38 S plugs and broke the ceramic. I've heard that Champion wants $75 for one of them.



Ron Grover

40063

partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

NGK BR8ES or BR9ES    the 8 is hotter than the 9.  2=hot, 10=cold.  I bought a bunch of both.  Also Densco from Lightspeed W27EMR-C

 Don McDonald



--- On Wed, 12/30/09, rv8grover(at)verizon.net <rv8grover(at)verizon.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: rv8grover(at)verizon.net <rv8grover(at)verizon.net>

Subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 4:58 PM



 --> RV10-List message posted by: "rv8grover(at)verizon.net (rv8grover(at)verizon.net)" <rv8grover(at)verizon.net (rv8grover(at)verizon.net)>



Is anyone using Automotive spark plugs with their electronic ignition on the IO-540 D5A4 engine?? 



If so, what is the part number?



I just dropped one of my UREM 38 S plugs and broke the ceramic. I've heard that Champion wants $75 for one of them.



Ron Grover

40063





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         [quote][b]

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

If you are using Lightspeeds, it is perfectly acceptable to use automotive plugs.  I picked up some Iridium Denso's off of eBay not long ago.  They are one of the types listed by Klaus.



http://tinyurl.com/yabmab9



Michael

--

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

The standard setup for electronic ignitions and standard compression

Lycoming engines is NGK BR8ES.  You can typically get these for $1.60 or so

each.  Remember you will need to use an adapter.  Here are a couple of links

for the adapter

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/plugadapter.php or

http://lightspeedengineering.com/Products/Sparkplugs.htm



I'm running these plugs in my IO-360 (180hp) RV-8A for the last several

hundred hours (eMag ignitions).  I'll use them in the RV-10 assuming eMag

gets their 6 cylinder EI done in time.  



Carl



--

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Ron



Any spark plug dropped should be replaced no matter if you can  see the

ceramic broken or not.  I feel for you they are very expensive but will last

quite a while.   U use fine wore plugs in all my planes and usually get tbo

out of them.



John G. Cumins

40864 emp

--

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:00 am Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

I am not the sharpest tool in drawer, but why would you want to take a chance with an automotive product to save a few bucks on a $40K engine.

Aircraft plugs are designed for A/C engines. Explain me?

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:41 am Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

The comparison should not be between aircraft and automotive plugs, it

should be between magnetos and electronic ignition.  Automotive plugs are

not compatible with magnetos as the magneto spark is not sufficient for the

typically larger gaps in automotive plugs.  While aircraft plugs will work

with electronic ignitions they provide, at best,  no advantage over

automotive plugs.  I also find the wide heat range availability of

automotive plugs a benefit to better match the engine/ignition combination.

The fact that the NGK BR8ES plugs that I use with my dual pMag install on my

8A cost $1.60 each is simply a side benefit.



The benefits provided by an electronic ignition like eMag or pMag is not

about the spark plugs.  



Carl Froehlich



--

partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Last time I ck'd, all the race cars with tons more $$$$'s in their engines, use automotive plugs.  If aircraft plugs were better, trust me, they'd be using them.

 Even the plugs Klaus recommends are automotive.

 Don

 



--- On Thu, 12/31/09, AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Automotive Spark Plugs

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 8:00 AM



 --> RV10-List message posted by: "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>



I am not the sharpest tool in drawer, but why would you want to take a chance with an automotive product to save a few bucks on a $40K engine.

Aircraft plugs are designed for A/C engines. Explain me?



--------

OSH '10 or Bust 

Q/B - testing phase 1





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewt   (And Get Some AWESOME FREE  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMtarget=_blank ======





	




         [quote][b]

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

ricksked(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

I'd be willing to bet those plugs John Force runs in his Funny Cars are a bit "different" than standard auto plugs but in theory your right Don.



If I recall how it was explained to me, the plug needs to be able to burn off deposits and keep firing even with a buildup. I believe that the plug doesn't know so much what type of engine it is installed in but what type of ignition keeps it firing cleanly. The people using automotive plugs are using electronic ignition designed for automotive plugs, myself I have two conventional mags and I use plugs designed to work with those magnetos. If you keep your plugs rotated, cleaned and gapped properly they should go all the way to TBO. Unless you drop one....then you get to bitch about how expensive they are.



Rick Sked

N246RS

---- Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Last time I ck'd, all the race cars with tons more $$$$'s in their engines, use automotive plugs.  If aircraft plugs were better, trust me, they'd be using them.

 Even the plugs Klaus recommends are automotive.

 Don

 

 

 --- On Thu, 12/31/09, AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> wrote:

 

 

 From: AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

 Subject: Re: Automotive Spark Plugs

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 8:00 AM

 

 

 

 

 I am not the sharpest tool in drawer, but why would you want to take a chance with an automotive product to save a few bucks on a $40K engine.

 Aircraft plugs are designed for A/C engines. Explain me?

 

 --------

 OSH '10 or Bust 

 Q/B - testing phase 1

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79410#279410

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 le, List Admin.

luis(at)cristabelle.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

I learn something new EVERYDAY reading this list.  Using automotive  

spark plugs is a great saver.

Thanks for everyones input on the list.

Sent from my iPod

On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:27 PM, "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net 

 > wrote:

[quote] 

 >

 The standard setup for electronic ignitions and standard compression

 Lycoming engines is NGK BR8ES.  You can typically get these for  

 $1.60 or so

 each.  Remember you will need to use an adapter.  Here are a couple  

 of links

 for the adapter

 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/plugadapter.php or

 http://lightspeedengineering.com/Products/Sparkplugs.htm

 I'm running these plugs in my IO-360 (180hp) RV-8A for the last  

 several

 hundred hours (eMag ignitions).  I'll use them in the RV-10 assuming  

 eMag

 gets their 6 cylinder EI done in time.

 Carl

 --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

For those who frequent OSH seminars, Champion is often conducting Educational Seminars that can be both informative and entertaining.  Then you can take what they say with a grain of salt.  The Aviation plug is designed and constructed for an entirely more reliable purpose than automotive. If there were only as many aviation plugs in use as Asian manufactured automotive we might see the competitive forces of price make that subject a Non Issue.  There is a big increase in consumable cost.  As a youth, when I was drag racing, I had three sets of entirely different plugs for atmospheric changes on the track.  We called that a Pit Stop.



Mikes post was about cost/benefit.



TBO: The original Rotax TBOs were down around 1,000 hours now they are improving to match Lyco/Continental.  Turbo powered engines create additional needs on the plug design and the TBO reflects the Trade Off of additional power output yet I have never seen a plug properly rotated, cleaned, gapped and not dropped that went 2,000 TBO... maybe 1000 hours. 



Rick, when you get back from the airport can you tell us which plug to buy? The Champion Go/No Go gage included a measure of when the anode of the plug has sacrificed enough metal to no longer have enough mass to continue reliably in service (between Annuals - I mean Conditionals).  Plugs should be matched for reliability and performance for the environment they operate and the source of power they are provided.  Last week there was discussion of blast tubes to the Mag without discussion on when pressurized mags provide additional value - that is another subject.  The tubes discussed were for cooling the Mag case and reducing the failure rate of the condenser inside.



Till you have seen an auto plug blow out, an anode burn off, an improper heat range plug or the damage from a decaying magneto, or the failure of an electronic ignition system you just have not experienced all the fun that is out there for us all.



The decision of cost/benefit is not in VANS hands, it is in the many choices we make as the Manufacturer and the QC that we put on our product before the name goes on.  I have respect for both the workmanship of Rick's and Don's aircraft.  To me it's not about the $40,000.  A close friend once said "When the engine stops in flight, a fire breaks out or you fly without gas.... The aircraft is instantly the property of the insurance company and your estate."  Bob Hoover said " It is the job of every good pilot to fly the aircraft to the landing site, walk away with all the passengers that were onboard and assess your estate value over a stiff drink".  Sully was this year's hero for following to a T that exact mantra. I have lost a few friends over the years who tried to do the impossible or cut a corner or two while traveling life's highway.  Let's have another year of no lost RV-10s or their pilots.



Here is a question for New Years Eve - "How many of you check the resistance of your plugs at each annual?"



John Cox



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Agreed. I have not seen a set of aviation plugs go more than 500 hours. I

usually have them cleaned, gapped and check by an IA each annual; I don't

have the EASY tools. IIRC the Glastar O360A4M and the 10 IO540D4A5 both take

the same plug. Normally at about 350-400 hours some of the plugs will not

pass the test. At that point I install a new set and keep the serviceable

plugs in the tool box (you do have a tool box (including spares) in the

baggage area?). In about 4000 hours I have had a single ignition problem

(TC177RG) which required an urgent landing. Fortunately the mechanic in

Central Kansas had a serviceable plug in his bag of tricks and I was able to

be on my way to OSH with little delay. If you are using aviation plugs,

check them at the annual; if you are using automotive plugs they are

inexpensive enough to check/install new at each annual. If using automotive,

I suggest you carry an extra box to avoid a trip to an auto store at an

inconvenient time.



--

ricksked(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Don't you have to overhaul these tractor engines at 500 hours?  Hmmm. 2000 hours is GREAT news!!! I retract my TBO plug comment now that I'm correctly informed. . And for all you rivet pounders out there....I'm 1.5 hours closer to that overhaul!!  



Rick Sked

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

As I have only had Dual Mags on now 9 different planes what do people use with one electronic and one Mag? Automotive plugs on the electronic and Aviation plugs on the Mag? 



Robin

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Yep.

Do not archive



On Dec 31, 2009, at 3:16 PM, "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As I have only had Dual Mags on now 9 different planes what do  

 people use with one electronic and one Mag? Automotive plugs on the  

 electronic and Aviation plugs on the Mag?



 Robin

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Robin,We have  used IO540-C4B5.  We are running a Lightspeed Plasma III on the left side and the original mag on the right side.  I have the automotive plugs in the top of the cylinders and the aircraft mag plugs on the bottom.  We start on the electronic ignition.  RPM drop on the mags only is much higher than the electronics only mode.Waiting with plans to upgrade the right mag to a P-Mag or E-Mag if they ever get them done for the 540 series.  But may also end up just installing a second Lightspeed when the mag finally give up.Working well for us.Jim C (N312F - Doing the first condition inspection now in a COLD hanger!)Do Not Archive----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> RV10-List message posted by: "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>As I have only had Dual Mags on now 9 different planes what do people usewith one electronic and one Mag? Automotive plugs on the electronic andAviation plugs on the Mag?Robin   [quote][b]

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Wait for the 6 cylinder pMag….  

   

Carl Froehlich  

Previous dual Lightspeed owner on my 8A (450 total hours with many problems).  I now run dual pMags on the 8A (100 trouble free hours so far) and will put them on my RV-10.  

   

   

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim

 Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:17 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Automotive Spark Plugs  

  

   

Robin,

 

 We have  used IO540-C4B5.  We are running a Lightspeed Plasma III on the left side and the original mag on the right side.  I have the automotive plugs in the top of the cylinders and the aircraft mag plugs on the bottom.  We start on the electronic ignition.  RPM drop on the mags only is much higher than the electronics only mode.

 

 Waiting with plans to upgrade the right mag to a P-Mag or E-Mag if they ever get them done for the 540 series.  But may also end up just installing a second Lightspeed when the mag finally give up.

 

 Working well for us.

 

 Jim C (N312F - Doing the first condition inspection now in a COLD hanger!)

 

 Do Not Archive

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>

 

 As I have only had Dual Mags on now 9 different planes what do people use

 with one electronic and one Mag? Automotive plugs on the electronic and

 Aviation plugs on the Mag?

 

 Robin

 

 

 

 

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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Sounds like a classic alternative setup.   

My purchase policy on purchasing the 6 cylinder P-Mag = Actual Release Date + 18 Months.   

   

Thanks for the detail,  

Robin   

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim

 Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:17 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Automotive Spark Plugs  

  

   

Robin,

 

 We have  used IO540-C4B5.  We are running a Lightspeed Plasma III on the left side and the original mag on the right side.  I have the automotive plugs in the top of the cylinders and the aircraft mag plugs on the bottom.  We start on the electronic ignition.  RPM drop on the mags only is much higher than the electronics only mode.

 

 Waiting with plans to upgrade the right mag to a P-Mag or E-Mag if they ever get them done for the 540 series.  But may also end up just installing a second Lightspeed when the mag finally give up.

 

 Working well for us.

 

 Jim C (N312F - Doing the first condition inspection now in a COLD hanger!)

 

 Do Not Archive

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>

 

 As I have only had Dual Mags on now 9 different planes what do people use

 with one electronic and one Mag? Automotive plugs on the electronic and

 Aviation plugs on the Mag?

 

 Robin

 

 

 

 

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No virus found in this incoming message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 12/31/09 08:52:00  

      [quote][b]

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

Yep, I have talked to them on at least three different occasions.  They seem to be ignoring a significant market.  I have yet to actually see a release date.Oh well.JimCDo not archive------------------------Sounds like a classic alternative setup.My purchase policy on purchasing the 6 cylinder P-Mag = Actual ReleaseDate + 18 Months.Thanks for the detail,RobinFrom: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JimSent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:17 PMTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Re: Automotive Spark PlugsRobin,We have  used IO540-C4B5.  We are running a Lightspeed Plasma III on theleft side and the original mag on the right side.  I have the automotiveplugs in the top of the cylinders and the aircraft mag plugs on thebottom.  We start on the electronic ignition.  RPM drop on the mags onlyis much higher than the electronics only mode.Waiting with plans to upgrade the right mag to a P-Mag or E-Mag if theyever get them done for the 540 series.  But may also end up justinstalling a second Lightspeed when the mag finally give up.Working well for us.Jim C (N312F - Doing the first condition inspection now in a COLDhanger!)Do Not Archive----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> RV10-List message posted by: "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>As I have only had Dual Mags on now 9 different planes what do peopleusewith one electronic and one Mag? Automotive plugs on the electronic andAviation plugs on the Mag?RobinChecked by AVG - www.avg.com12/31/09 08:52:00   [quote][b]

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: Automotive Spark Plugs

The LightSpeed is working well for us.  - - So Far . . . I am using their timing pickup mounted at the front of the engine.  JIm CDo Not Archive--------------------------------------------Wait for the 6 cylinder pMag..Carl FroehlichPrevious dual Lightspeed owner on my 8A (450 total hours with manyproblems).  I now run dual pMags on the 8A (100 trouble free hours so far)and will put them on my RV-10.From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JimSent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:17 PMTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Re: Automotive Spark PlugsRobin,We have  used IO540-C4B5.  We are running a Lightspeed Plasma III on theleft side and the original mag on the right side.  I have the automotiveplugs in the top of the cylinders and the aircraft mag plugs on thebottom.We start on the electronic ignition.  RPM drop on the mags only is muchhigher than the electronics only mode.Waiting with plans to upgrade the right mag to a P-Mag or E-Mag if theyeverget them done for the 540 series.  But may also end up just installing asecond Lightspeed when the mag finally give up.Working well for us.Jim C (N312F - Doing the first condition inspection now in a COLD hanger!)Do Not Archive----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> RV10-List message posted by: "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>As I have only had Dual Mags on now 9 different planes what do people usewith one electronic and one Mag? Automotive plugs on the electronic andAviation plugs on the Mag?Robin   [quote][b]

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