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Vince Frazier
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 132
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 Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: speed issues |
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Full down elevator at cruise? I hope you mean down trim... but then what happens with a pax? More info needed! If what you say is true, then there are other issues than speed to be worried about first.
Regarding a well known accident, the tail came off of a Rocket due to a MAJOR builder error that absolutely would have been caught had the builder had nearly any reasonably competent RV or Rocket builder do a pre-inspection inspection, i.e. an inspection before the feds arrived and definitely before anyone flew it. It really SUCKS that this happened so needlessly.
For goodness sakes guys, no matter how much of a stud you think you are, have at least one, and preferably two sets of competent, independent eyes look over your work before you fly a new bird. For example, we've got a local guy who has flown since WWII and has been an engineer all his life. He's as sharp as anyone I know, but he's had several (at least five) off airport excursions/incidents/accidents in his homebuilt because he won't take advantage of the EAA tech counselors or flight advisors. (The saying "You can always tell a german, but you can't tell him much" applies here!) The gentleman in question is without a doubt the luckiest man I know, but he really makes it tough on the rest of us out here. He is also the most stubborn, hard headed person I know.
He also totaled his C-170 and then fixed it literally with duct tape, bailing wire, and a sledge hammer. They're out there and walk among us. Amazing.
Back to the issues at hand. built right, there aren't any issues with the tails coming off the Rockets.
Vince
www.flyboyaccessories.com
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_________________
Vince Frazier
3965 Caborn Road
Mount Vernon, IN 47620
812-464-1839 work
812-985-7309 home
F-1H Rocket, N540VF
http://vincesrocket.com/ |
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: speed issues |
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I was worried about the full down elevator and the yaw in rain stories. I
guess things have to be checked on those airframes before they defy gravity
again.
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ernest(at)flmitigation.co
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: speed issues |
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Down trim is what was meant. Can you give us some idea as to what you are
talking about when you say there are other issues besides speed? I didn't
build my rocket but had it reviewed by an A&P before I bought it and he
signed off on it. Is there anything that needs to be evaluated due to the
down trim?
On 1/10/10 6:46 PM, "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier(at)usi.edu> wrote:
| Quote: |
Full down elevator at cruise? I hope you mean down trim... but then what
happens with a pax? More info needed! If what you say is true, then there
are other issues than speed to be worried about first.
Regarding a well known accident, the tail came off of a Rocket due to a MAJOR
builder error that absolutely would have been caught had the builder had
nearly any reasonably competent RV or Rocket builder do a pre-inspection
inspection, i.e. an inspection before the feds arrived and definitely before
anyone flew it. It really SUCKS that this happened so needlessly.
For goodness sakes guys, no matter how much of a stud you think you are, have
at least one, and preferably two sets of competent, independent eyes look over
your work before you fly a new bird. For example, we've got a local guy who
has flown since WWII and has been an engineer all his life. He's as sharp as
anyone I know, but he's had several (at least five) off airport
excursions/incidents/accidents in his homebuilt because he won't take
advantage of the EAA tech counselors or flight advisors. (The saying "You can
always tell a german, but you can't tell him much" applies here!) The
gentleman in question is without a doubt the luckiest man I know, but he
really makes it tough on the rest of us out here. He is also the most
stubborn, hard headed person I know.
He also totaled his C-170 and then fixed it literally with duct tape, bailing
wire, and a sledge hammer. They're out there and walk among us. Amazing.
Back to the issues at hand. built right, there aren't any issues with the
tails coming off the Rockets.
Vince
www.flyboyaccessories.com
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smokyray(at)rocketmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: speed issues |
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Ernest,
To answer your question I took my HR2 out yesterday evening during our unseasonably cool FL Swamp weather (34 degrees F) and made some speed runs specifically to look at my horizontal at various speeds. To compare, I know exactly where my RV4 was at different speeds in the 15 years I flew it and I changed the incidence based on several RV8R articles and Van's input to level it at high cruise. My fear at that time was the slow speed STOL characteristics would translate into a "float". None of this proved true and my RV4 actually trimmed and flew much better at high cruise after the change. I am approaching 1000 Rocket hours now, so I think I'm starting to get the hang of it too:)
My Rocket was documented in the logs that they set the horizontal based on John's plans and incidence settings which I believe is 2 degrees down incidence. It is a very early HR2 (1994) and has a stock RV4 tail with .020 tail feathers, stock HR2 cowling, 285HP Ly-Con IO540, 2 blade Hartzell D twist and One EIectroair Electronic Ignition running Automotive Denso L14U plugs, One Magneto running REM-37BY (hot) plugs, (my standard setup on my last two airplanes). I have larger tires (380 X 150 X 5) Van's Pressure recovery pants set high enough to clear 3" stones and a large size Aviation products dual fork tailwheel.
At 1/2 fuel, a 100 LB passenger 23 squared and 2000 MSL yesterday I was indicating 208 mph and showing 171 Knots GS, elevator trim level, elevator very slightly up. At 24 squared speed increased to 223 MPH indicated, 184 Knots GS. elevator trim 3 degrees down, elevator perfectly level. 25 squared yielded 235 MPH, 195 Knots GS, trim two full clicks down (5 degrees) and still a level elevator. Full throttle showed 29" MP, 2750 RPM, 252 MPH 209 Knots GS, 3 clicks (8 degrees fwd) and elevator level. The amazing part is I came back to my 1500 foot strip and my FAS was 63 Knots over the trees, touchdown at 58 Knots. What a great airplane!
Hope this data helps.
Rob "Smokey" Ray
HR2
--- On Sun, 1/10/10, Ernest Hale <ernest(at)flmitigation.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Ernest Hale <ernest(at)flmitigation.com>
Subject: Re: speed issues
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 6:46 PM
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Ernest Hale <[url=/mc/compose?to=ernest(at)flmitigation.com]ernest(at)flmitigation.com[/url]>
Down trim is what was meant. Can you give us some idea as to what you are
talking about when you say there are other issues besides speed? I didn't
build my rocket but had it reviewed by an A&P before I bought it and he
signed off on it. Is there anything that needs to be evaluated due to the
down trim?
On 1/10/10 6:46 PM, "Frazier, Vincent A" <[url=/mc/compose?to=VFrazier(at)usi.edu]VFrazier(at)usi.edu[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <[url=/mc/compose?to=VFrazier(at)usi.edu]VFrazier(at)usi.edu[/url]>
Full down elevator at cruise? I hope you mean down trim... but then what
happens with a pax? More info needed! If what you say is true, then there
are other issues than speed to be worried about first.
Regarding a well known accident, the tail came off of a Rocket due to a MAJOR
builder error that absolutely would have been caught had the builder had
nearly any reasonably competent RV or Rocket builder do a pre-inspection
inspection, i.e. an inspection before the feds arrived and definitely before
anyone flew it. It really SUCKS that this happened so needlessly.
For goodness sakes guys, no matter how much of a stud you think you are, have
at least one, and preferably two sets of competent, independent eyes look over
your work before you fly a new bird. For example, we've got a local guy who
has flown since WWII and has been an engineer all his life. He's as sharp as
anyone I know, but he's had several (at least five) off airport
excursions/incidents/accidents in his homebuilt because he won't take
advantage of the EAA tech counselors or flight advisors. (The saying "You can
always tell a german, but you can't tell him much" applies here!) The
gentleman in question is without a doubt the luckiest man I know, but he
really makes it tough on the rest of us out here. He is also the most
stubborn, hard headed person I know.
He also totaled his C-170 and then fixed it literally with duct tape, bailing
wire, and a sledge hammer. They're out there and walk among us. Amazing.
Back to the issues at hand. built right, there aren't any issues with the
tails coming off the Rockets.
Vince
www.flyboyaccessories.sp; --> http========================http://www.matronics.com/contributio==============
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andrew(at)nzactive.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:00 pm Post subject: speed issues |
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Vince, I'm not sure if you're responding to my post, but if so, yes, I
mean down elevator, not down trim. I'm no aerodynamicist of course. What
I mean is, at cruise, the elevator is deflected down quite a bit. By no
means full elevator tho, which is why I wonder if you're responding to
another post. Under these conditions, the trim, of course, is set in a
manner which holds it there. I guess I was wondering if having a setup
so that the elevator chord and the HS chord were on the same line would
be better.
I'll look into it more closely at different loadings.
Thanks for the advice re tails coming off. I didn't build my Rocket, but
consulted with the builder who was clear that he built it to plan. It
was his 3rd or 4th homebuilt, and I think he knows what he's doing. The
rocket has 1000 hrTT, of which 600 hrs have been mine, and no probs yet.
Of course, a departing part of the tail feathers is the kind of prob you
only have once. I completely agree with your thoughts about getting a
few pairs of extra, expert, eyes to look over one's work.
So, no serious issues with tails in the fleet? Great.I have nonetheless
been wondering about rebuilding the tail with thicker metal, especially
cos I deal with a lot of mountain-induced turbulence in NZ, and it's
hard to get down from cruise speed to VA in a hurry, without shock
cooling. Obviously better anticipatin of turbulence is part of the
PILOT solution. I've just been wondering about a *metalurgical* solution
too.
Cheers
Andrew
--
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