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bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification

Good Morning Bill,

  

 I do not have an opinion as to whether or not a homebuilder can verify the  accuracy of his installation and I would probably get mine certified by a  properly rated shop.  

  

 However, I am amazed that everyone seems to feel that a transponder is  required for most operations. The vast majority of light plane flying is VFR and  away from areas that require a transponder. It isn't just those few areas that  are strictly class G airspace. The transponder is NOT required unless you fly in  an airspace where it IS required. Stay away from class A, B, C, and below ten  thousand feet MSL and it is easy. 

  

 Get out where you have to fly above ten to avoid hitting the ground and  stay below 2500 AG and you still don't need a transponder.

  

 This is the third message I have sent on this subject and all of the  previous ones have been totally ignored. I guess I should take the hint and quit  participating, but I hate to see folks told they need something which is not  required by the appropriate authority.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove, IL

 Stearman N3977A 

  

  

  In a message dated 1/20/2010 10:07:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,  wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by:    wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au

Folks,

Using the term "controlled    airspace" is a bit of a misnomer.



Airspace is categorized as A, B, C,    D, E, F and G.



Only F and G are "uncontrolled", there is no F in the    US, and very little G, outside Alaska.



For those with a long memory,    what is now E, in the US was once called "Controlled/VFR Exempt".

In    regular day to day flying, it is very hard to dodge E airspace in US, as it is    most common airspace below below A.



Generally, B,C and D are    terminal/tower airspace.



Below 10,000', for Part 91 operations, the    requirement for a transponder relates to the transponder veil withing 30 miles    of the airfields on which Class B is centered, or as otherwise    noted/charted.



In my opinion, as an individual, you can only satisfy    the requirements for a  Mode C encoder by having a TSO unit, with the    necessary initial/recurrent testing.



How?? do you establish the 95%    probability performance otherwise required in Part 91, already mentioned, a    simple test of an installation does not do that, it does not establish the    in-service performance is maintained.



Regards,

Bill Hamilton    

 	  Quote: 	
		   bakerocb(at)cox.net wrote:

 

 --> Avionics-List    message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

 

 1/20/2010

    

 Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more    

 with 

 your help?

 

 You write:

 

    1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are 

    huge 

 expanses of this country where this is true."

 

    {Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam 

    the 

 wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the    

 uncontrolled 

 airspace (delineated by brown shading as    opposed to white on the low 

 altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its    significance.

 

 There was damn little brown shading then and    probably much less now. Can 

 you 

 please obtain a copy of a    recent low altitude IFR chart for your area 

 and 

 confirm that    the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt 

 them.    

 Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E    airspace 

 and 

 therefore is controlled.

 

 2)    "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that 

    folks

 living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can    fly for

 hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of    the

 airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)."

 

    {Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet of    

 the 

 surface you will definitely be in the airspace    identified by 91.215 (b) 

 (5) 

 (i). See here:

 

    "(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no 

    person 

 may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in    paragraphs (b)(1) 

 through (b)(5) of this section, unless that    aircraft is equipped with an 

 

 operable coded radar beacon    transponder.......

 

 (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous    states and the District of 

 Columbia 

 at and above 10,000 feet    MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 

 feet 

 above    the surface; and....."

 

 3) "So, given MY environment, I can    fly without a transponder and/or 

 without 

 it turned    on."

 

 {Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect    permits aircraft with 

 no 

 transponders to operate below    10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL 

 if 

 within 2,500    feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled, 

 as 

    long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with.

 

 Could it be    that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you 

 have    

 in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se?

    

 Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder    or 

 not 

 is not the existence or not of generic controlled    airspace, but rather 

 the 

 specific airspaces identified in    91.215 (b). The term "controlled 

 airspace" 

 is not used once    in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 

 CFR 

    paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a 

    transponder or not.

 

 Hoping to read about what you find out --    sure wish I had access to a 

 set of 

 low altitude IFR charts    for the entire country.

 

 'OC' Says: "The best investment we    can make is the effort to gather and 

 understand knowledge."

    

 PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM.    Yes 

 there 

 is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there,    but one would be hard 

 pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding    white (controlled 

 airspace) 

 unless a special navigation    effort was made.

 

    ===================================================

 

 Time:    07:10:22 PM PST US

 From: "Jon Finley"    <jon(at)finleyweb.net>

 Subject: RE: Encoder    Certification

 

 Bakerocb,

 

 Everything noted so    far in this thread assumes controlled airspace.  If

 I missed    where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments.  

    No

 doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right    environment

 (controlled airspace).

 

 If you read the    full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks

 living in a    place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for

 hours and    hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the

 airspace    listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5).  Additionally, 91.215 (c), 

 does    

 not

 apply as almost all of our airspace is    uncontrolled.

 

 So, given MY environment, I can fly without a    transponder and/or without

 it turned on.  There are huge expanses    of this country where this is 

 true.

 

 If someone can    prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing.

 

    Jon

 

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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:42 am Post subject: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification

Hi Bob,

  

 Your notes have not been ignored - I agree with your position.  

  

 There are two issues being bantered about.  

  

 The first is the requirement to have a transponder installed. As you have stated, you are not required to have one unless flying in the airspace that you listed.

  

 The second is the USE of a transponder IF you have one installed (14 CFR 91.215 (c) at all times in any airspace other than Class G).

  

 In my opinion, the FAA has complicated this by using non-descript language.



 Jon

  

 

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kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:35 am Post subject: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification

Old Bob, You have a way of simply stating the simple truth...

 Keep posting and keep flying!

  

 Kevin      do not archive

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bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:21 am Post subject: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification

Good Morning Jon,

  

 Thanks for the response, I was getting lonely!

  

 I don't think the guys that write this stuff want us to understand it.  Maybe it makes for more business as they enforce the regs?!? <G>

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 1/21/2010 4:43:53 A.M. Central Standard Time,  jon(at)finleyweb.net writes:

 [quote]   Hi Bob,

    

   Your notes have not been ignored - I agree with your position.     

    

   There are two issues being bantered about.  

    

   The first is the requirement to have a transponder installed. As you have    stated, you are not required to have one unless flying in the airspace    that you listed.

    

   The second is the USE of a transponder IF you have one installed (14 CFR 91.215 (c) at all times in any airspace other than    Class G).

    

   In my opinion, the FAA has complicated this by using non-descript    language.



   Jon

    

   

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bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:31 am Post subject: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification

Thank You Kevin!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 1/21/2010 7:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time,  kevann(at)gotsky.com writes:

 [quote]   Old Bob, You have a way of simply stating the simple truth...

   Keep posting and keep flying!

    

   Kevin      do not archive

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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:35 am Post subject: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification

I totally agree with you Bob!

  

 We had an FAA inspector present at our EAA chapter meeting last night.  After he said that "flying is a priviledge, not a right" I offered him some advice, stood up, and walked out.  

  

 Jon 

 



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bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification

Good Morning Jon,

  

 Good For You!

  

 Maybe we need some aviation oriented Tea Partys?

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 1/21/2010 10:36:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,  jon(at)finleyweb.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I totally agree with you Bob!

    

   We had an FAA inspector present at our EAA chapter meeting last    night.  After he said that "flying is a priviledge, not a right" I    offered him some advice, stood up, and walked out.  

    

   Jon 

	


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