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peterlthomson(at)gmail.co
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 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:49 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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I am a dedicated E10 user in my a/c, but just had a nasty experience in my auto,
My auto is fitted for LPG and uses gasoline only for a few seconds at start.
This has resulted in the same E10 in the gasoline tank for a long time (probably 2 years), The result - heavy rusting, failed pumps (one in the tank and one in the fuel line), clogged filters.
So this is a clear example of one of the downsides to this E10, You need to keep turning it over, keep tanks full, etc. to stop any effect of the absorption of water from the air.
My a/c has aluminum tanks, two in-line filters which I watch and change, and I check the carb bowls every 50 hours. Also never any vapor lock, up to 9500ft (I haven;t cruised higher)
Peter
CH701SP
912ULS 470hrs 1500TBO
Trio EZ Pilot
[quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:26 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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Put 100LL in a sealed drum and you can count on it remaining stable for 2 years. Do the same for mogas and it will start to degrade in 2 months. The key here is SEALED, i.e. no vents. Add venting and mogas starts to deteriorate in days. I've not tried Sta-bil for ethanol adulterated gas but the regular grade works great for non ethanol grade.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Peter Thomson <peterlthomson(at)gmail.com (peterlthomson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I am a dedicated E10 user in my a/c, but just had a nasty experience in my auto,
My auto is fitted for LPG and uses gasoline only for a few seconds at start.
This has resulted in the same E10 in the gasoline tank for a long time (probably 2 years), The result - heavy rusting, failed pumps (one in the tank and one in the fuel line), clogged filters.
So this is a clear example of one of the downsides to this E10, You need to keep turning it over, keep tanks full, etc. to stop any effect of the absorption of water from the air.
My a/c has aluminum tanks, two in-line filters which I watch and change, and I check the carb bowls every 50 hours. Also never any vapor lock, up to 9500ft (I haven;t cruised higher)
Peter
CH701SP
912ULS 470hrs 1500TBO
Trio EZ Pilot
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: Re: More on ethanol |
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I have over 800 hours in last few years with 582 and ethanol gas
fiberglass fuel tanks as well.
no problems yet.
I have 8 other aircraft at my strip that all are 2 strokes and use regular grade gas with ethanol or what ever the cheapest station sells. No problems yet.
Dave
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Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
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blumax008(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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In a message dated 1/18/2010 6:47:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
| Quote: | I have 8 other aircraft at my strip that all are 2 strokes and use regular grade gas with ethanol or what ever the cheapest station sells. No problems yet.
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Keep your fingers crossed. You're an exception to the rule. Are you using any sort of additive?
[quote][b]
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Dick Maddux
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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Dave,
You are a lucky man. This ethanol is creating real havoc with my British cars. They backfire,buck ,snort, and have a hell of a time till they get up to speed. Never had that problem before ethanol ! I have had to add octane booster to my Rotax 912 fuel to keep it from desieling on shutdown. I will now make that a regular additive. I think if you treat the ethanol like milk and throw it out (or burn it) before it sours,you will be ok.
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4
912 UL
Milton,Fl
[quote][b]
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: Re: More on ethanol |
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[quote="blumax008(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 1/18/2010 6:47:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
| Quote: | I have 8 other aircraft at my strip that all are 2 strokes and use regular grade gas with ethanol or what ever the cheapest station sells. No problems yet.
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Keep your fingers crossed. You're an exception to the rule. Are you using any sort of additive?
The 2-strokes are a lot more permissive about fuel, in my experience. Kind of like turbines, if it burns the motor will run.... Well, not that permissive but, generally, they'll run fine on any 87 or higher octane gas.
Our 4 strokes are fussier, my 912ULS has dieseled on me once or twice when I got a bad tank of (still premium) gas (which had no ethanol in it BTW).
But I've been running E10 premium in my 912ULS for about a year now after pure gas finally went away forever in my area last spring. No problems at all even up to 10,000' MSL.....
LS
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: More on ethanol |
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I’ve been checking octane boosters and have found that most of them are the next thing to usless... What are you using for octane boost? BTW if your English cars are early ones with sidedraft carbs etc you may want to check the rubber in the carbs etc as they used a natural black rubber that is not ethanol resistant.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of catz631(at)aol.com
Sent: January 19, 2010 9:27 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: More on ethanol
Dave,
You are a lucky man. This ethanol is creating real havoc with my British cars. They backfire,buck ,snort, and have a hell of a time till they get up to speed. Never had that problem before ethanol ! I have had to add octane booster to my Rotax 912 fuel to keep it from desieling on shutdown. I will now make that a regular additive. I think if you treat the ethanol like milk and throw it out (or burn it) before it sours,you will be ok.
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4
912 UL
Milton,Fl
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[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: More on ethanol |
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Noel, I came to the same conclusion when I tried about every brand available on the shelves of the auto parts store in my Shovelhead Harley. Nothing but Coppertone for spark plugs.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
[quote]
I’ve been checking octane boosters and have found that most of them are the next thing to usless... What are you using for octane boost? BTW if your English cars are early ones with sidedraft carbs etc you may want to check the rubber in the carbs etc as they used a natural black rubber that is not ethanol resistant.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of catz631(at)aol.com (catz631(at)aol.com)
Sent: January 19, 2010 9:27 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: More on ethanol
Dave,
You are a lucky man. This ethanol is creating real havoc with my British cars. They backfire,buck ,snort, and have a hell of a time till they get up to speed
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:44 am Post subject: Re: More on ethanol |
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[quote="blumax008(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 1/18/2010 6:47:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
| Quote: | I have 8 other aircraft at my strip that all are 2 strokes and use regular grade gas with ethanol or what ever the cheapest station sells. No problems yet.
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Keep your fingers crossed. You're an exception to the rule. Are you using any sort of additive?
No additives at all. Just regular grade 87 I guess. What ever I get 98% of it goes in throught a filter with a screen .
I had a can of gas about 3 months old I found in hanger on weekend that came back from cottage in Oct ( it could have been bought in summer too ) I only had about 2 gallons left in plane so I dumped in 5 gallons . WOrked fine but on a few full power pull ups I think that Iheard some pinging twice under load only.
EGTs running abit high right now but I am still on summer needle settings and prop a tad course still so this keeps the load on engine and EGTs close to in line.
I hear about tank issues with fiberglass but have not see any yet. If I do I will try these likely www.wingtanks.com
Dave
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_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
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blumax008(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:22 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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In a message dated 1/20/2010 4:46:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dave(at)cfisher.com writes:
| Quote: | | I hear about tank issues with fiberglass but have not see any yet. |
Here's a strange one for you. I have a DFS trike with a fiberglass fuel tank. BEFORE I started using Ethanol laced fuel, it was leaking fuel. AFTER I began using Ethanol fuel...it stopped leaking!
So Ethanol is good for something after all! It melts fiberglass fuel tanks & stops leaks!
[quote][b]
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:31 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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Good one !!
You should post that here
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=35
Ethanol thread
Glad to hear !!
[quote] ---
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_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
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Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:29 pm Post subject: More on ethanol |
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That is SCARY!
Think what is happening that would cause it to stop leaking? Some thing is swelling ... E10 will cause that in FIBERGLASS. Notice I say fiberglass, not EPOXY. There are some EPOXYs that can handle E10.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:21 AM, <blumax008(at)aol.com (blumax008(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] In a message dated 1/20/2010 4:46:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com) writes:
| Quote: | | I hear about tank issues with fiberglass but have not see any yet. |
Here's a strange one for you. I have a DFS trike with a fiberglass fuel tank. BEFORE I started using Ethanol laced fuel, it was leaking fuel. AFTER I began using Ethanol fuel...it stopped leaking!
So Ethanol is good for something after all! It melts fiberglass fuel tanks & stops leaks!
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
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daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:44 pm Post subject: More on ethanol |
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How does a vinyl-ester gas tank handle ethanol as apposed to epoxy or poly? Anyone know?
Dave Austin
[quote][b]
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E. D. Eliot
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Southern California - USA
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: More on ethanol |
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I’ve never tried any fuel with ethanol in it... but from what I’ve read they describe vinyl-ester as being ethanol resistant... Whatever that means. Apparently that’s what they are making the underground fuel tanks out of now. They are supposed to have a twenty year guarantee. What that covers who knows.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Austin
Sent: January 20, 2010 10:13 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: More on ethanol
How does a vinyl-ester gas tank handle ethanol as apposed to epoxy or poly? Anyone know?
Dave Austin
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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blumax008(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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In a message dated 1/21/2010 6:56:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:
| Quote: | | Apparently that’s what they are making the underground fuel tanks out of now. |
Yeah, then the powers-that-be will come up with another super-duper additive that eats the underground fuel tanks & they'll have to replace all of them...again. We got some real thinkers in government now.
Way to go Massachusetts!
[quote][b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:20 pm Post subject: More on ethanol |
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As far as I know the powers to be wanted to get the MTBE (Methyl tert-butyl ether  out of the gas. The MTBE was added as an octane booster but when underground fuel tanks started leaking as the sometimes do a little MTBE would pollute a large quantity of groundwater..Â
The idea was to add ethanol which has an RON of 116 as the booster in place of the MTBE. The some yahoo got the idea of using it as a replacement for gas. There are problems with that. I really feel sorry for the people who went out and bought the so called flex fuel vehicles as they don’t work as well on fuel that has not been doctored with ethanol... Believe me when the full story is out on ethanol fuel it will go the way of the gooney bird in North America.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of blumax008(at)aol.com
Sent: January 22, 2010 10:43 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: More on ethanol
In a message dated 1/21/2010 6:56:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:
| Quote: |
Apparently that’s what they are making the underground fuel tanks out of now. |
Yeah, then the powers-that-be will come up with another super-duper additive that eats the underground fuel tanks & they'll have to replace all of them...again. We got some real thinkers in government now.
Way to go Massachusetts!
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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Noel:
The powers powers to be were the DAM-O-CRATS (Ted Kennedy) that pushed for a STRONG EPA. So strong that MTBE was recommended by the EPA with OUT ANY TESTING or proof of what the intended results would be. YES, the molecular size of MTBE is so small that a SPILLED quantity would seep right through a CEMENT/CONCRETE platform and pollute the ground and migrate to water supplies. But that STILL was not enough to cause the recall of MTBE. What really hurt ... Hurt the POCKETBOOK was that minimum wage, non-English speaking, illegal immigrants were SUING Big Business and WINNING BIG BUCK$. Because of the medical issues MTBE was causing upon pump jockeys. This cut into profits and if not for hurting profits we would STILL be using MTBE.
So, where does ETHANOL come in? It is GRAIN ALCOHOL. It has NOTHING to do with clean air. It has to do with Backroom Politics .. One hand washes the other. Huge Government contracts were going to the coastal states and Middle America was not getting pieces of the pie. So, how can that be remedied? Hey, will take grains (mostly corn) and convert them over to alcohol add it to our GAS once again believing and using the UN-TESTED METHODS of the EPA - AGAIN - And force the PEOPLE of the United States to buy it. Hey it is only 10%! But, EVERYONE seems to have forgotten how inexpensive a loaf of bread use to be. Ask your WIFE! Middle America can make MORE money selling Government Supported - FUNDED - Ethanol than it can selling a loaf of bread. AND as gas millage goes down because of ETHANOL ... SO WHAT! The EPA said it was a good thing.
But here is where I have a math problem. If we get 10% less fuel economy doesn't that mean we burn 10% more fuel? And if we are burning 10% more fuel doesn't that mean we are producing 10% more pollution?
What's gone the way of the Gooney Bird is 'Common Sense" and a Government of the People, BY the People and For the People.
DON'T GET ME STARTED! ! ! Bend over America!
Barry
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
[quote]
As far as I know the powers to be wanted to get the MTBE (Methyl tert-butyl ether out of the gas. The MTBE was added as an octane booster but when underground fuel tanks started leaking as the sometimes do a little MTBE would pollute a large quantity of groundwater..
The idea was to add ethanol which has an RON of 116 as the booster in place of the MTBE. The some yahoo got the idea of using it as a replacement for gas. There are problems with that. I really feel sorry for the people who went out and bought the so called flex fuel vehicles as they don’t work as well on fuel that has not been doctored with ethanol... Believe me when the full story is out on ethanol fuel it will go the way of the gooney bird in North America.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of blumax008(at)aol.com (blumax008(at)aol.com)
Sent: January 22, 2010 10:43 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: More on ethanol
In a message dated 1/21/2010 6:56:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca) writes:
| Quote: |
Apparently that’s what they are making the underground fuel tanks out of now. |
Yeah, then the powers-that-be will come up with another super-duper additive that eats the underground fuel tanks & they'll have to replace all of them...again. We got some real thinkers in government now.
Way to go Massachusetts!
012 34567 89
0
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:30 am Post subject: More on ethanol |
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Okay, enough. Last I saw this was the Rotax engine forum, not Fox Spews. Barry, so far your contributions have been misconceptions based upon a complete failure to do any research about these engines, and now a politcal rant that is completely irrelevant to the purpose of this forum. If you truly came here to learn something, go to the Rotax Owners site and download the manuals for the engines. Most of your ignorance about the object of this forum can be corrected by that little bit of effort on your part. If you want to have a political rant there are many web sites that can accommodate you.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:09 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Noel:
The powers powers to be were the DAM-O-CRATS (Ted Kennedy) that pushed for a STRONG EPA. So strong that MTBE was recommended by the EPA with OUT ANY TESTING or proof of what the intended results would be. YES, the molecular size of MTBE is so small that a SPILLED quantity would seep right through a CEMENT/CONCRETE platform and pollute the ground and migrate to water supplies. But that STILL was not enough to cause the recall of MTBE. What really hurt ... Hurt the POCKETBOOK was that minimum wage, non-English speaking, illegal immigrants were SUING Big Business and WINNING BIG BUCK$. Because of the medical issues MTBE was causing upon pump jockeys. This cut into profits and if not for hurting profits we would STILL be using MTBE.
So, where does ETHANOL come in? It is GRAIN ALCOHOL. It has NOTHING to do with clean air. It has to do with Backroom Politics .. One hand washes the other. Huge Government contracts were going to the coastal states and Middle America was not getting pieces of the pie. So, how can that be remedied? Hey, will take grains (mostly corn) and convert them over to alcohol add it to our GAS once again believing and using the UN-TESTED METHODS of the EPA - AGAIN - And force the PEOPLE of the United States to buy it. Hey it is only 10%! But, EVERYONE seems to have forgotten how inexpensive a loaf of bread use to be. Ask your WIFE! Middle America can make MORE money selling Government Supported - FUNDED - Ethanol than it can selling a loaf of bread. AND as gas millage goes down because of ETHANOL ... SO WHAT! The EPA said it was a good thing.
But here is where I have a math problem. If we get 10% less fuel economy doesn't that mean we burn 10% more fuel? And if we are burning 10% more fuel doesn't that mean we are producing 10% more pollution?
What's gone the way of the Gooney Bird is 'Common Sense" and a Government of the People, BY the People and For the People.
DON'T GET ME STARTED! ! ! Bend over America!
Barry
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: |
As far as I know the powers to be wanted to get the MTBE (Methyl tert-butyl ether out of the gas. The MTBE was added as an octane booster but when underground fuel tanks started leaking as the sometimes do a little MTBE would pollute a large quantity of groundwater..
The idea was to add ethanol which has an RON of 116 as the booster in place of the MTBE. The some yahoo got the idea of using it as a replacement for gas. There are problems with that. I really feel sorry for the people who went out and bought the so called flex fuel vehicles as they don’t work as well on fuel that has not been doctored with ethanol... Believe me when the full story is out on ethanol fuel it will go the way of the gooney bird in North America.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of blumax008(at)aol.com (blumax008(at)aol.com)
Sent: January 22, 2010 10:43 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: More on ethanol
In a message dated 1/21/2010 6:56:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca) writes:
| Quote: |
Apparently that’s what they are making the underground fuel tanks out of now. |
Yeah, then the powers-that-be will come up with another super-duper additive that eats the underground fuel tanks & they'll have to replace all of them..again. We got some real thinkers in government now.
Way to go Massachusetts!
012 34567 89
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:49 am Post subject: Re: More on ethanol |
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| Float Flyr wrote: | As far as I know the powers to be wanted to get the MTBE (Methyl tert-butyl ether  out of the gas. The MTBE was added as an octane booster but when underground fuel tanks started leaking as the sometimes do a little MTBE would pollute a large quantity of groundwater..Â
The idea was to add ethanol which has an RON of 116 as the booster in place of the MTBE. The some yahoo got the idea of using it as a replacement for gas. There are problems with that. I really feel sorry for the people who went out and bought the so called flex fuel vehicles as they don’t work as well on fuel that has not been doctored with ethanol... Believe me when the full story is out on ethanol fuel it will go the way of the gooney bird in North America.
Noel
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Well, politics aside, the story is already out and has been out since the beginning. Ethanol is NOT a renewable fuel. It's not sustainable - essentially, you can't produce it in a self-sustaining way because of the energy budget. It requires large amounts of petroleum to produce and use as a fuel and the net gain is negative. Ultimately we're better off just burning the petrolium itself rather than trying to convert it to ethanol.
T. Boone Pickens has been saying this for years and years and noone has ever listened to him, so you can be sure noone will ever listen to any of us here on the Rotax engines list  .
Pretty much we don't have a lot of choices until we figure out some other way of cranking the props on our planes, like going to natural gas in our Rotaxen or replacing them outright with electric motors. The battery technology for the latter is a ways out.
Meanwhile..... there's no problem running E10 in our Rotaxen. It was approved for use last summer so we can knock ourselves out. We do have to make sure our fuel systems can handle it.
This will all change again, of course, once E15 is forced on us and we'll have to go through this entire mess all over again. But we're ok with E10 in the meantime....
LS
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