 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
 |
|
Not to hijack, but why would you not ceramic coat the exhaust again? That became a standard issue item for me when I built cars, and I expected to do the same for the airplane. What gives?
cj
On Jan 26, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
No muffler. The exhaust is a Forsling exhaust with megaphone type collector area. Looks great, sounds great. Mine happen to be ceramic coated inside and out which I would not do again.
Better view of exhaust. Photo attached.
The heat muff is a standard heat muff cut down (slightly) to fit a flat area of the exhaust on co-pilot side. Pilots side untouched as you can see from the photo.
If you want a muffler I think others are using the Vetterman system. I have seen a few and they are beautiful units too. Others can surely comment better than me on those systems.
Of note… as nice as these photos are, I am REALLY happy to be past this stage and burning 100LL and not fingertips.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:48 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com<mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
Robin,
Real nice installation FWF! What muffler and heat muff are you using?
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com<mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
Ta da!
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Pulis
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:41 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com<mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
I purchased an Andair fuel check valve (non return valve)and gascolator with my finishing kit, however I am yet to decide where to position both items
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:42 pm Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
Chris,
Let me explain what I know and extract backwards.
I have:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Forsling double ceramic coated exhaust system.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Well documented heat issues (hot engine)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>S/S fire wall mounted heater valves
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Dual Heat Muffs (one cut down by 25% to properly fit the exhaust tube)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Generally direct heating duct paths
Unlike most of the -10 fleet I am unable to get enough heat into my cabin. Tim and others have noted that at HALF heat setting you can bake Brownies. Ok, ok maybe not that hot but comfortable enough to fly in Wisconsin for gosh sakes. In my ship with FULL heat and OAT’s at about 30F I am uncomfortable with a T-Shirt, long-sleeved shirt and a vest or beanie. For any length of flight I have to bring gloves and a few times was shivering a bit. I do have a little leak in my cabin where the overhead console wraps around the door support bracket but that is not the problem. I have a pretty tight seal overall. Not nearly enough heat is coming out of the heating system. I have checked connections and the function of the heater valves; all good. The only thing I can put my finger on is that the double ceramic coating is doing what it’s advertised to do; send the heat out the bottom of the tube. I have seen a demonstration of a hot Harley shut down and 15 seconds later you can grab the exhaust. Don’t try that with your car exhaust.
I have also heard that some owners have been experiencing the coatings chipping or coming off the surface of the pipes. Mine look good externally so far (120 hours) but who knows what they look like inside and who knows what it will look like or perform like at 820 hours.
I really didn’t give the coating a second thought when ordering the pipes. Upgrade, more power, “SURE, I’ll Take Two!” The coatings may not be the problem but I am hard pressed to see what else it could be. Throw in the potential to degrade and I would be just as happy to save the $ and use what has been on every other plane I have ever own or flown. Standard exhaust tubing.
A note of personal privilege. I know people can read into the written word many different things. I hate for some to take away that I am always complaining about everything. Blah, blah James Cowl (and all it’s ramifications), blah, blah Garmin, blah, blah LOP and my famous %#(at)*&$! Painter… The whole process was a learning experience for me. Most issues are cleaned with just heat issues remaining. LOP flight has given me a path to rest my engine while I figure things out. I love the plane, love it’s systems, I use it a lot for work & pleasure and surprisingly have stopped dreaming of what I want next… (ok, except for the 8A due to fly in 2010. Teehee).
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ceramic coating on exhaust
Not to hijack, but why would you not ceramic coat the exhaust again? That became a standard issue item for me when I built cars, and I expected to do the same for the airplane. What gives?
cj
On Jan 26, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
No muffler. The exhaust is a Forsling exhaust with megaphone type collector area. Looks great, sounds great. Mine happen to be ceramic coated inside and out which I would not do again.
Better view of exhaust. Photo attached.
The heat muff is a standard heat muff cut down (slightly) to fit a flat area of the exhaust on co-pilot side. Pilots side untouched as you can see from the photo.
If you want a muffler I think others are using the Vetterman system. I have seen a few and they are beautiful units too. Others can surely comment better than me on those systems.
Of note… as nice as these photos are, I am REALLY happy to be past this stage and burning 100LL and not fingertips.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:48 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
Robin,
Real nice installation FWF! What muffler and heat muff are you using?
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
[quote] [b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
I ceramic coated the outside only on my exhaust and my heaters also crank out the heat when barely opened.
I have 650 hours on mine and it is holding up great. It does lose that original shine but has not cracked or pealed.
People have mentioned that if you do have problems you cannot weld it but I will cross that road if it happens. So far I have been very happy.
Scott Schmidtscottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 10:39:09 PM
Subject: RE: ceramic coating on exhaust
Chris,
Let me explain what I know and extract backwards.
I have:
· Forsling double ceramic coated exhaust system.
· Well documented heat issues (hot engine)
· S/S fire wall mounted heater valves
· Dual Heat Muffs (one cut down by 25% to properly fit the exhaust tube)
· Generally direct heating duct paths
Unlike most of the -10 fleet I am unable to get enough heat into my cabin. Tim and others have noted that at HALF heat setting you can bake Brownies. Ok, ok maybe not that hot but comfortable enough to fly in Wisconsin for gosh sakes. In my ship with FULL heat and OAT’s at about 30F I am uncomfortable with a T-Shirt, long-sleeved shirt and a vest or beanie. For any length of flight I have to bring gloves and a few times was shivering a bit. I do have a little leak in my cabin where the overhead console wraps around the door support bracket but that is not the problem. I have a pretty tight seal overall. Not nearly enough heat is coming out of the heating system. I have checked connections and the function of the heater valves; all good. The only thing I can put my finger on is that the double ceramic coating is doing what it’s advertised to do; send the heat out the bottom of the tube. I have seen a demonstration of a hot Harley shut down and 15 seconds later you can grab the exhaust. Don’t try that with your car exhaust.
I have also heard that some owners have been experiencing the coatings chipping or coming off the surface of the pipes. Mine look good externally so far (120 hours) but who knows what they look like inside and who knows what it will look like or perform like at 820 hours.
I really didn’t give the coating a second thought when ordering the pipes. Upgrade, more power, “SURE, I’ll Take Two!†The coatings may not be the problem but I am hard pressed to see what else it could be. Throw in the potential to degrade and I would be just as happy to save the $ and use what has been on every other plane I have ever own or flown. Standard exhaust tubing.
A note of personal privilege. I know people can read into the written word many different things. I hate for some to take away that I am always complaining about everything. Blah, blah James Cowl (and all it’s ramifications), blah, blah Garmin, blah, blah LOP and my famous %#(at)*&$! Painter… The whole process was a learning experience for me. Most issues are cleaned with just heat issues remaining. LOP flight has given me a path to rest my engine while I figure things out. I love the plane, love it’s systems, I use it a lot for work & pleasure and surprisingly have stopped dreaming of what I want next… (ok, except for the 8A due to fly in 2010. Teehee).
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ceramic coating on exhaust
Not to hijack, but why would you not ceramic coat the exhaust again? That became a standard issue item for me when I built cars, and I expected to do the same for the airplane. What gives?
cj
On Jan 26, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
No muffler. The exhaust is a Forsling exhaust with megaphone type collector area. Looks great, sounds great. Mine happen to be ceramic coated inside and out which I would not do again.
Better view of exhaust. Photo attached.
The heat muff is a standard heat muff cut down (slightly) to fit a flat area of the exhaust on co-pilot side. Pilots side untouched as you can see from the photo.
If you want a muffler I think others are using the Vetterman system. I have seen a few and they are beautiful units too. Others can surely comment better than me on those systems.
Of note… as nice as these photos are, I am REALLY happy to be past this stage and burning 100LL and not fingertips.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:48 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
Robin,
Real nice installation FWF! What muffler and heat muff are you using?
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:47 pm Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
Scott, can you venture to guess what’s wrong with my setup?
BTW sorry I didn’t call while at Sundance. It got a little crazy.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:11 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
I ceramic coated the outside only on my exhaust and my heaters also crank out the heat when barely opened.
I have 650 hours on mine and it is holding up great. It does lose that original shine but has not cracked or pealed.
People have mentioned that if you do have problems you cannot weld it but I will cross that road if it happens. So far I have been very happy.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 10:39:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
Chris,
Let me explain what I know and extract backwards.
I have:
· Forsling double ceramic coated exhaust system.
· Well documented heat issues (hot engine)
· S/S fire wall mounted heater valves
· Dual Heat Muffs (one cut down by 25% to properly fit the exhaust tube)
· Generally direct heating duct paths
Unlike most of the -10 fleet I am unable to get enough heat into my cabin. Tim and others have noted that at HALF heat setting you can bake Brownies. Ok, ok maybe not that hot but comfortable enough to fly in Wisconsin for gosh sakes. In my ship with FULL heat and OAT’s at about 30F I am uncomfortable with a T-Shirt, long-sleeved shirt and a vest or beanie. For any length of flight I have to bring gloves and a few times was shivering a bit. I do have a little leak in my cabin where the overhead console wraps around the door support bracket but that is not the problem. I have a pretty tight seal overall. Not nearly enough heat is coming out of the heating system. I have checked connections and the function of the heater valves; all good. The only thing I can put my finger on is that the double ceramic coating is doing what it’s advertised to do; send the heat out the bottom of the tube. I have seen a demonstration of a hot Harley shut down and 15 seconds later you can grab the exhaust. Don’t try that with your car exhaust.
I have also heard that some owners have been experiencing the coatings chipping or coming off the surface of the pipes. Mine look good externally so far (120 hours) but who knows what they look like inside and who knows what it will look like or perform like at 820 hours.
I really didn’t give the coating a second thought when ordering the pipes. Upgrade, more power, “SURE, I’ll Take Two!†The coatings may not be the problem but I am hard pressed to see what else it could be. Throw in the potential to degrade and I would be just as happy to save the $ and use what has been on every other plane I have ever own or flown. Standard exhaust tubing.
A note of personal privilege. I know people can read into the written word many different things. I hate for some to take away that I am always complaining about everything. Blah, blah James Cowl (and all it’s ramifications), blah, blah Garmin, blah, blah LOP and my famous %#(at)*&$! Painter… The whole process was a learning experience for me. Most issues are cleaned with just heat issues remaining. LOP flight has given me a path to rest my engine while I figure things out. I love the plane, love it’s systems, I use it a lot for work & pleasure and surprisingly have stopped dreaming of what I want next… (ok, except for the 8A due to fly in 2010. Teehee).
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
Not to hijack, but why would you not ceramic coat the exhaust again? That became a standard issue item for me when I built cars, and I expected to do the same for the airplane. What gives?
cj
On Jan 26, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
No muffler. The exhaust is a Forsling exhaust with megaphone type collector area. Looks great, sounds great. Mine happen to be ceramic coated inside and out which I would not do again.
Better view of exhaust. Photo attached.
The heat muff is a standard heat muff cut down (slightly) to fit a flat area of the exhaust on co-pilot side. Pilots side untouched as you can see from the photo.
If you want a muffler I think others are using the Vetterman system. I have seen a few and they are beautiful units too. Others can surely comment better than me on those systems.
Of note… as nice as these photos are, I am REALLY happy to be past this stage and burning 100LL and not fingertips.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:48 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
Robin,
Real nice installation FWF! What muffler and heat muff are you using?
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
| Quote: | | _-============================================================_-=Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - The RV10-List Email Forum -_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,http://fo===== |
01234567890123456
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:46 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
I have the same setup as Robin, Barrett cold air induction, Forsling exhaust, and oil cooler on firewall. I get plenty of cabin heat. I do not have ceramic coating on my exhaust. Just another data point.
Gary Specketer
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:39 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: ceramic coating on exhaust
Chris,
Let me explain what I know and extract backwards.
I have:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Forsling double ceramic coated exhaust system.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Well documented heat issues (hot engine)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>S/S fire wall mounted heater valves
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Dual Heat Muffs (one cut down by 25% to properly fit the exhaust tube)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Generally direct heating duct paths
Unlike most of the -10 fleet I am unable to get enough heat into my cabin. Tim and others have noted that at HALF heat setting you can bake Brownies. Ok, ok maybe not that hot but comfortable enough to fly in Wisconsin for gosh sakes. In my ship with FULL heat and OAT’s at about 30F I am uncomfortable with a T-Shirt, long-sleeved shirt and a vest or beanie. For any length of flight I have to bring gloves and a few times was shivering a bit. I do have a little leak in my cabin where the overhead console wraps around the door support bracket but that is not the problem. I have a pretty tight seal overall. Not nearly enough heat is coming out of the heating system. I have checked connections and the function of the heater valves; all good. The only thing I can put my finger on is that the double ceramic coating is doing what it’s advertised to do; send the heat out the bottom of the tube. I have seen a demonstration of a hot Harley shut down and 15 seconds later you can grab the exhaust. Don’t try that with your car exhaust.
I have also heard that some owners have been experiencing the coatings chipping or coming off the surface of the pipes. Mine look good externally so far (120 hours) but who knows what they look like inside and who knows what it will look like or perform like at 820 hours.
I really didn’t give the coating a second thought when ordering the pipes. Upgrade, more power, “SURE, I’ll Take Two!” The coatings may not be the problem but I am hard pressed to see what else it could be. Throw in the potential to degrade and I would be just as happy to save the $ and use what has been on every other plane I have ever own or flown. Standard exhaust tubing.
A note of personal privilege. I know people can read into the written word many different things. I hate for some to take away that I am always complaining about everything. Blah, blah James Cowl (and all it’s ramifications), blah, blah Garmin, blah, blah LOP and my famous %#(at)*&$! Painter… The whole process was a learning experience for me. Most issues are cleaned with just heat issues remaining. LOP flight has given me a path to rest my engine while I figure things out. I love the plane, love it’s systems, I use it a lot for work & pleasure and surprisingly have stopped dreaming of what I want next… (ok, except for the 8A due to fly in 2010. Teehee).
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ceramic coating on exhaust
Not to hijack, but why would you not ceramic coat the exhaust again? That became a standard issue item for me when I built cars, and I expected to do the same for the airplane. What gives?
cj
On Jan 26, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
No muffler. The exhaust is a Forsling exhaust with megaphone type collector area. Looks great, sounds great. Mine happen to be ceramic coated inside and out which I would not do again.
Better view of exhaust. Photo attached.
The heat muff is a standard heat muff cut down (slightly) to fit a flat area of the exhaust on co-pilot side. Pilots side untouched as you can see from the photo.
If you want a muffler I think others are using the Vetterman system. I have seen a few and they are beautiful units too. Others can surely comment better than me on those systems.
Of note… as nice as these photos are, I am REALLY happy to be past this stage and burning 100LL and not fingertips.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:48 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
Robin,
Real nice installation FWF! What muffler and heat muff are you using?
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
01234567890
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:18 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
James cowl or Vans?
Is there a real difference in power or economy with the cold air
induction and/or Forsling exhaust? I understand the theoretical for
the cold air induction, and if the exhaust is better tuned, etc. Just
wondering if the final result is more speed, more climb and/or better
fuel economy, so I can sugar coat the $$ expenditure.
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:45 AM, gary <speckter(at)comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I have the same setup as Robin, Barrett cold air induction, Forsling
exhaust, and oil cooler on firewall. I get plenty of cabin heat. I do not
have ceramic coating on my exhaust. Just another data point.
Gary Specketer
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:36 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
I have a modified Van's cowl and regular baffling. I bought this engine used
and it had the cold air induction. I have not done any scientific or side
by side tests to tell if I get more power. I know they get more power on
the dyno at Barrett than a standard set up. Fuel economy is a direct
function of power produced. At full power I suspect I burn more because of
the increased horsepower, but at cruse it should be the same.
Gary Specketer
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
11.69 KB |
| Viewed: |
7109 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:01 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
The cold air system adds 15-20 additional hp to the engine, so a stock compression 540 with cold air should run in the 275-280 range. Gary is correct regarding fuel burn. Fuel burn should increase to 26 gallons/hour at full power.
With 9:1 compression, we see around 290-290 hp and up to around 300 hp with 10:1 compression. These are verified hp numbers based on years of testing 540s with various compression/sump set ups. We don't encourage RV-10 drivers to go 10:1, due to reliability and TBO issues. It might interest you to know that Red Bull pilots run 10:1 max in their race engines.
Rhonda Barrett-Bewley
Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
Tulsa, OK 74115
(918) 835-1089 phone
(918) 835-1754 fax
www.barrettprecisionengines.com
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:01 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
Kelly,
You may want to take a look at Rod Bower's site
(http://www.ramairforhomebuilts.com/) . Not only does he have a nice
ram/alternate air solution, he also has a bottom scoop that will fit on a
standard cowl. He now has products for both horizontal and vertical sumps.
Bob
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
Thanks Rhonda. Answers my questions. Seems if we are to believe the
stories of 100LL demise, anything over stock compression might have issues.
Rhonda Bewley wrote:
| Quote: |
The cold air system adds 15-20 additional hp to the engine, so a stock compression 540 with cold air should run in the 275-280 range. Gary is correct regarding fuel burn. Fuel burn should increase to 26 gallons/hour at full power.
With 9:1 compression, we see around 290-290 hp and up to around 300 hp with 10:1 compression. These are verified hp numbers based on years of testing 540s with various compression/sump set ups. We don't encourage RV-10 drivers to go 10:1, due to reliability and TBO issues. It might interest you to know that Red Bull pilots run 10:1 max in their race engines.
Rhonda Barrett-Bewley
Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
Tulsa, OK 74115
(918) 835-1089 phone
(918) 835-1754 fax
www.barrettprecisionengines.com
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
Vetterman is now making an exhaust that will work with the Cold Air setup and it's basically the same price as the Forsling. However where the Forsling is "tuned" (equal length pipes) the Vetterman is not. Again, well known theoretical and proven performance increase from equal length pies. I went with the Vetterman because I was concerned about the heat output of the Forsling for cabin heat but that sounds like it's not really an issue as long as you don't ceramic coat or at least mask the muff area off.
I also went with the James cowl, but again, it was before Gary and others with the experience in fiberglass had paved the way for modifying the original.
I have also heard that once you ceramic coat you cannot weld a pipe. Something about it getting into the pores of the SS and how it blocks heat transfer during the welding process can cause a porous and weak weld. Of course the real advantage to ceramic coating is that it should keep the heat contained in the pipe which increases exhaust velocity and scavenging but I don't think it really helps much with our old big block engines and in some cases it seems it can hurt.
If I was to do it today I would:
- Barrett Cold Air
- Stock cowl
- Baffles
- Uncoated Forsling exhaust
My $0.002
Michael
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BPA(at)bpaengines.com
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:30 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
We have been coating the exterior of intake pipes and exhaust for this year's RB engines we are building. One of the biggest problems with ceramic coating is the quality of the application. We would never do the inside of intake pipes because if it did chip off, it would go directly to the valves. Not a good situation.
The guy I'm using to do my coating said that you have to grind off the coating to reweld. We asked, because we do have to reweld intake pipes on the cold air occasionally. You can always wrap your exhaust to try and get the same effect on the scavenging.
Rhonda
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
LIGHTSPEEDS! ROFLMAO!!!
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
Here's a question regarding wrapping the pipes. I did this on my first
airplane (Q-2) mostly because it seemed like a good idea. I had a number of
folks later on recommend against it as the wrapping has a tendency to hold
moisture and increase corrosion. Perhaps with stainless pipes (I presume
they all are now) that would alleviate the concern but I'd like to hear any
opinions as I'd consider wrapping the pipes now if there's no downside.
In case it matters, I have 435 hours on the airplane (it's great BTW!) so
any issues with wrapping at this point in its life?
Thanks,
Marcus
Do not archive
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
IMO, the power increase from Cold Air is very real (so is the fuel consumption (at) WOT).
Any performance increases from the James cowl & plenum are unrecognizable
Tuned Forsling exhaust ceramic coated inside and out is less rediated heat in the lower cowl and better scavenging. I took one of my heat muffs off and only have heat supplied to 1/2 of the cabin. The coolest OAT's I've flown in were 0 degs C. And we had no problem keeping the cabin cozy, even had to reduce the valve somewhat.
Deems Davis
N519PJ
www.deemsrv10.com
On 1/27/2010 7:15 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: [quote] | Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> (apilot2(at)gmail.com)
James cowl or Vans?
Is there a real difference in power or economy with the cold air
induction and/or Forsling exhaust? I understand the theoretical for
the cold air induction, and if the exhaust is better tuned, etc. Just
wondering if the final result is more speed, more climb and/or better
fuel economy, so I can sugar coat the $$ expenditure.
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 6:45 AM, gary <speckter(at)comcast.net> (speckter(at)comcast.net) wrote:
| Quote: | I have the same setup as Robin, Barrett cold air induction, Forsling
exhaust, and oil cooler on firewall. I get plenty of cabin heat. I do not
have ceramic coating on my exhaust. Just another data point.
Gary Specketer
|
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:37 pm Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
Wrapping exhaust stacks does not change the degree of condensation on the inside of the tubes. It does retain heat, drive EGT numbers up slightly and increase temps at the Exhaust valve and seat which reduces life. The thermal blanket can in cases such as the Pacific NWet hold moisture longer.
As long as they can be removed effectively to inspect welds and attachments points for determination of cracks... they are not a concern.
Someone such as your 435 hours should wrap a pair and report the EGT increases from an established baseline. Then we would all know for sure. Ceramic coatings on the outside prolong life and provide many benefits. Ceramic coatings are maligned but it is often a result of individuals who found the advantage on the outside and then did the inside. When it flakes of with a Turbo, your like takes a quick turn.
John Cox
From: Marcus Cooper
Sent: Wed 1/27/2010 10:19 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: ceramic coating on exhaust
Here's a question regarding wrapping the pipes. I did this on my first
airplane (Q-2) mostly because it seemed like a good idea. I had a number of
folks later on recommend against it as the wrapping has a tendency to hold
moisture and increase corrosion. Perhaps with stainless pipes (I presume
they all are now) that would alleviate the concern but I'd like to hear any
opinions as I'd consider wrapping the pipes now if there's no downside.
In case it matters, I have 435 hours on the airplane (it's great BTW!) so
any issues with wrapping at this point in its life?
Thanks,
Marcus
Do not archive
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:44 pm Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
Robin, I cannot believe that by coating the inside it does not transfer heat in the heat muff but that might be the case.
It would be interesting to measure the air temperature coming out of the front heater when flying with another RV-10 at the same time.
That might tell us something.
Scott Schmidtscottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 11:45:09 PM
Subject: RE: ceramic coating on exhaust
Scott, can you venture to guess what’s wrong with my setup?
BTW sorry I didn’t call while at Sundance. It got a little crazy.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:11 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ceramic coating on exhaust
I ceramic coated the outside only on my exhaust and my heaters also crank out the heat when barely opened.
I have 650 hours on mine and it is holding up great. It does lose that original shine but has not cracked or pealed.
People have mentioned that if you do have problems you cannot weld it but I will cross that road if it happens. So far I have been very happy.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 10:39:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
Chris,
Let me explain what I know and extract backwards.
I have:
· Forsling double ceramic coated exhaust system.
· Well documented heat issues (hot engine)
· S/S fire wall mounted heater valves
· Dual Heat Muffs (one cut down by 25% to properly fit the exhaust tube)
· Generally direct heating duct paths
Unlike most of the -10 fleet I am unable to get enough heat into my cabin. Tim and others have noted that at HALF heat setting you can bake Brownies. Ok, ok maybe not that hot but comfortable enough to fly in Wisconsin for gosh sakes. In my ship with FULL heat and OAT’s at about 30F I am uncomfortable with a T-Shirt, long-sleeved shirt and a vest or beanie. For any length of flight I have to bring gloves and a few times was shivering a bit. I do have a little leak in my cabin where the overhead console wraps around the door support bracket but that is not the problem. I have a pretty tight seal overall. Not nearly enough heat is coming out of the heating system. I have checked connections and the function of the heater valves; all good. The only thing I can put my finger on is that the double ceramic coating is doing what it’s advertised to do; send the heat out the bottom of the tube. I have seen a demonstration of a hot Harley shut down and 15 seconds later you can grab the exhaust. Don’t try that with your car exhaust.
I have also heard that some owners have been experiencing the coatings chipping or coming off the surface of the pipes. Mine look good externally so far (120 hours) but who knows what they look like inside and who knows what it will look like or perform like at 820 hours.
I really didn’t give the coating a second thought when ordering the pipes. Upgrade, more power, “SURE, I’ll Take Two!� The coatings may not be the problem but I am hard pressed to see what else it could be. Throw in the potential to degrade and I would be just as happy to save the $ and use what has been on every other plane I have ever own or flown. Standard exhaust tubing.
A note of personal privilege. I know people can read into the written word many different things. I hate for some to take away that I am always complaining about everything. Blah, blah James Cowl (and all it’s ramifications), blah, blah Garmin, blah, blah LOP and my famous %#(at)*&$! Painter… The whole process was a learning experience for me. Most issues are cleaned with just heat issues remaining. LOP flight has given me a path to rest my engine while I figure things out. I love the plane, love it’s systems, I use it a lot for work & pleasure and surprisingly have stopped dreaming of what I want next… (ok, except for the 8A due to fly in 2010. Teehee).
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ceramic coating on exhaust
Not to hijack, but why would you not ceramic coat the exhaust again? That became a standard issue item for me when I built cars, and I expected to do the same for the airplane. What gives?
cj
On Jan 26, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
No muffler. The exhaust is a Forsling exhaust with megaphone type collector area. Looks great, sounds great. Mine happen to be ceramic coated inside and out which I would not do again.
Better view of exhaust. Photo attached.
The heat muff is a standard heat muff cut down (slightly) to fit a flat area of the exhaust on co-pilot side. Pilots side untouched as you can see from the photo.
If you want a muffler I think others are using the Vetterman system. I have seen a few and they are beautiful units too. Others can surely comment better than me on those systems.
Of note… as nice as these photos are, I am REALLY happy to be past this stage and burning 100LL and not fingertips.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:48 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
Robin,
Real nice installation FWF! What muffler and heat muff are you using?
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
0[/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/quote]1234
¦·›~‰Ã²,Þg(–ŠÓM4ÓGÚqü¢êâz¹ÞÃÊ.®'«8^E]t.+-f¢â€Z+ºt±ëaxÆ®‰ârÂâ²Ñ^jÛ«zÃZ¾(¶ŠÃ¡ºèÂǶ¦j|‹ŠËn¶)b¶'¬²ç!jÂâ²Õ'ý+›±Êâ¦Ø¨œ+r¯y'Å¡ÂÈC£ 塧{ ¬�®Œ,x(Z´P
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:14 pm Post subject: ceramic coating on exhaust |
|
|
The more I think about it the more I believe there is some significant reduction in upper cowl pressure causing both higher CHT’s and less flow through the muffs. I suspect my set up is more stagnant (due to lower differential pressure between top & bottom) than others. Can you buy that argument? Air is not being forced through the cylinders or driven through the heat muff at nearly the rate of cooler -10’s.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:40 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
Robin, I cannot believe that by coating the inside it does not transfer heat in the heat muff but that might be the case.
It would be interesting to measure the air temperature coming out of the front heater when flying with another RV-10 at the same time.
That might tell us something.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 11:45:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
Scott, can you venture to guess what’s wrong with my setup?
BTW sorry I didn’t call while at Sundance. It got a little crazy.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:11 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
I ceramic coated the outside only on my exhaust and my heaters also crank out the heat when barely opened.
I have 650 hours on mine and it is holding up great. It does lose that original shine but has not cracked or pealed.
People have mentioned that if you do have problems you cannot weld it but I will cross that road if it happens. So far I have been very happy.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 10:39:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
Chris,
Let me explain what I know and extract backwards.
I have:
· Forsling double ceramic coated exhaust system.
· Well documented heat issues (hot engine)
· S/S fire wall mounted heater valves
· Dual Heat Muffs (one cut down by 25% to properly fit the exhaust tube)
· Generally direct heating duct paths
Unlike most of the -10 fleet I am unable to get enough heat into my cabin. Tim and others have noted that at HALF heat setting you can bake Brownies. Ok, ok maybe not that hot but comfortable enough to fly in Wisconsin for gosh sakes. In my ship with FULL heat and OAT’s at about 30F I am uncomfortable with a T-Shirt, long-sleeved shirt and a vest or beanie. For any length of flight I have to bring gloves and a few times was shivering a bit. I do have a little leak in my cabin where the overhead console wraps around the door support bracket but that is not the problem. I have a pretty tight seal overall. Not nearly enough heat is coming out of the heating system. I have checked connections and the function of the heater valves; all good. The only thing I can put my finger on is that the double ceramic coating is doing what it’s advertised to do; send the heat out the bottom of the tube. I have seen a demonstration of a hot Harley shut down and 15 seconds later you can grab the exhaust. Don’t try that with your car exhaust.
I have also heard that some owners have been experiencing the coatings chipping or coming off the surface of the pipes. Mine look good externally so far (120 hours) but who knows what they look like inside and who knows what it will look like or perform like at 820 hours.
I really didn’t give the coating a second thought when ordering the pipes. Upgrade, more power, “SURE, I’ll Take Two!� The coatings may not be the problem but I am hard pressed to see what else it could be. Throw in the potential to degrade and I would be just as happy to save the $ and use what has been on every other plane I have ever own or flown. Standard exhaust tubing.
A note of personal privilege. I know people can read into the written word many different things. I hate for some to take away that I am always complaining about everything. Blah, blah James Cowl (and all it’s ramifications), blah, blah Garmin, blah, blah LOP and my famous %#(at)*&$! Painter… The whole process was a learning experience for me. Most issues are cleaned with just heat issues remaining. LOP flight has given me a path to rest my engine while I figure things out. I love the plane, love it’s systems, I use it a lot for work & pleasure and surprisingly have stopped dreaming of what I want next… (ok, except for the 8A due to fly in 2010. Teehee).
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:49 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: ceramic coating on exhaust
Not to hijack, but why would you not ceramic coat the exhaust again? That became a standard issue item for me when I built cars, and I expected to do the same for the airplane. What gives?
cj
On Jan 26, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
No muffler. The exhaust is a Forsling exhaust with megaphone type collector area. Looks great, sounds great. Mine happen to be ceramic coated inside and out which I would not do again.
Better view of exhaust. Photo attached.
The heat muff is a standard heat muff cut down (slightly) to fit a flat area of the exhaust on co-pilot side. Pilots side untouched as you can see from the photo.
If you want a muffler I think others are using the Vetterman system. I have seen a few and they are beautiful units too. Others can surely comment better than me on those systems.
Of note… as nice as these photos are, I am REALLY happy to be past this stage and burning 100LL and not fingertips.
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:48 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Check Valve & Gascolator
Robin,
Real nice installation FWF! What muffler and heat muff are you using?
Marcus
40286
Do not archive
| Quote: | | Â http://forums.matronics.com |
| Quote: | | Â http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com |
¦·›~‰Ã²,Þg(–ŠÓM4ÓGÚqü¢êâz¹ÞÃÊ.®'«8^E]t.+-f¢â€Z+ºt±ëaxÆ®‰ârÂâ²Ñ^jÛ«zÃZ¾(¶ŠÃ¡ºèÂǶ¦j|‹ŠËn¶)b¶'¬²ç!jÂâ²Õ'ý+›±Êâ¦Ø¨œ+r¯y'Å¡ÂÈC£ 塧{ ¬�®Œ,x(Z´P
| Quote: | | _-============================================================http://forums.matronics.com |
0 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
1 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
2 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
3 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
4 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
5 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
6 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
7 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
8 | Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
901234567890
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
