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Location for temperature sender/s

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:01 pm Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

Hi GroupI have an Ilec SC-7 variometer with ability to display temperature. It comes with one sender which is a little 3/16" cylinder with a flat on it. It's a potted semicondoctor. I was thinking I could use multiple senders with a selector switch. What is your favorite location to place sender to detect OAT? Which location/s under cowl on a Europa is it desirable to know the temperatures of (Rotax 9124)? any other locations that may be desirable to know temp of? Under instrument module? Inside cockpit? (what location).Thx.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

duanefamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

Ron,



I have Dyson D-100 and have mounted the OAT sensor inside the NACA vent in the left side of the lower cowl that feeds air to the airbox so I can monitor for carb icing.



Mike Duane

Redding, California

XS Conventional gear

Jabiru 3300

--

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:33 am Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

Hi Ron

I first fitted my OAT sender directly between the two gear legs on my tri gear but found heat from the engine would give me a false reading, so last year moved it to behind the Starboard gear leg fairing and it works well now,

On My 914 I also fitted a sender into the main inlet track to measure inlet air temps, there is a blanking plug already there and it gives you a heads up on thermal loads the engine is taking,

ivor

---- rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Group

 I have an Ilec SC-7 variometer with ability to display

 temperature. It comes with one sender which is a little 3/16"

 cylinder with a flat on it. It's a potted semicondoctor. I was

 thinking I could use multiple senders with a selector switch. What is

 your favorite location to place sender to detect OAT? Which

 location/s under cowl on a Europa is it desirable to know the temperatures

 of (Rotax 9124)? any other locations that may be desirable to know temp

 of? Under instrument module? Inside cockpit? (what location).

 Thx.

 Ron Parigoris

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:43 am Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

Ron/Ivor



I have a temperature sensor between the two gear legs on my tri gear and it

seems to give reasonably accurate readings.



Ivor, have you got any records of your air box temperature readings.  I

appreciate they will be quite complex given the variables of OAT and engine

load.  The reason I ask is to confirm there is virtually no chance of carb

icing on the 914.



Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours

Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:18 am Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

<<<<<<<< What is  your favorite location to place senderto detect OAT?  >>>>>>>>

  

 Hi Ron,

  

 With the 914, I had the OAT probe protuding behind  the lower right NACA air intake. 

 With the 912S I installed it inside the round air  intake to the cylinder cooling air guide. 

 In both cases the probe can be fitted so that it is  not necessary to remove it nor disconnect the wiring when you remove the lower  cowling.

 Both work very well in flight  (I crossed  checked  the indicated temp with a  thermometer temporary fitted through one of the cockpit vents). However,  while on the ground, the temp is too much influenced by the engine heat and  therefore is not usable. 

  

 Remi Guerner 

     [quote][b]

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:09 am Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

I mounted my OAT probe inside the right wing  root,aft of the spar. This location works well as it is far from the engine, and  exhaust and not exposed to the sun. 

  

 Ivor, where is this blanking plug on the 914  inlet?

  

 Kevin

 [quote]   ---

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Location for temperature sender/s

After trying several locations on the cowl of my 912s, I can definitively

say that the cowl is simply the wrong place if accuracy matters.



My first location was through the most foward duct plate under the gear box. Despite the probe being well insulated from behind, the OAT would be

up to 20F high in cruise flight



Next location was the lower stbd vent, on a plate under the oil tank and 

just next to my cold cabin air inlet for the scat hose.  It sits at least 10F high in flight.  There have been several other locations chosen so I did not need a separate electrical connector for the temp probe in removing the

cowl. All off from OAT, all rising with engine start.



Once you fly, you will see anywhere under the fuse is a poor location by

examining the trail of exhaust soot. Likewise, top of fuse is problematic

due to sunlight. I think Kevin is on the right track.



A good location which is also convenient to wire and connect is not a trivial

exercise. I am still looking for a satisfactory location so that I can improve

the reliability of my flight test data with accurate Density Altitude.

_________________
Ira N224XS

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

Hi Ian



I haven’t kept any records as such but have monitored the temperature on a regular basis,

It connects to a Dynon EMS 10 so gives me verbal warnings if it goes outside the parameters I set,    Low 20C   High 60C ,    



I have only had a low temp warning on starting up then quite quickly rising to Mid 20C

For normal flight,   I have flown above 15000 ft with minus 5C OAT and an inlet temp of

44C that’s the highest I have seen but still well below the intervention temperature



The normal range for my plane is 27C to 37C at average heights of 5000 ft summer or winter, so in answer to your question I think it not possible to get carb ice with a 914,



The Dynon EMS has a data log that I can download so will try and do that before taking the plane back to Biggin hill in march,

Ivor



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Ron/Ivor

 

 I have a temperature sensor between the two gear legs on my tri gear and it

 seems to give reasonably accurate readings.

 

 Ivor, have you got any records of your air box temperature readings.  I

 appreciate they will be quite complex given the variables of OAT and engine

 load.  The reason I ask is to confirm there is virtually no chance of carb

 icing on the 914.

 

 Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours

 Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)

 e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:32 am Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

Hi Kevin

its number 56 on the attached JPG

Ivor

---- Kevin Klinefelter <kevann(at)gotsky.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I mounted my OAT probe inside the right wing root,aft of the spar. This location works well as it is far from the engine, and exhaust and not exposed to the sun. 

 

 Ivor, where is this blanking plug on the 914 inlet?

 

 Kevin

   -----

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Location for temperature sender/s

Hi Ivor

Do you have an intercooler installed on your 914?

I would imagine worst case for potential ice would be fine pitch or at least having the wind turn the prop with little to no throttle opening?

Is that what you find?

I would also imagine the second you begin to increase MP close to ambient pressure having the prop pull the aeroplane, the heating from turbo compressing air would raise temp above carb ice range. I owned a 1983 Volvo 245 turbo station wagon with a air cooled turbo very similar to 914 and it came from factory without an intercooler. In that configuration they stated temps would raise 145 degrees F over ambient. Once an intercooler was installed, temp would only raise 45 f over ambient, thus they would allow more boost. Anyway it was a standard shift. Two or three times pulling off parkway using a bit of engine braking had ice occur and had motor quit. For cetrtain ice was in the fuel flow regulator gizmo that was in the breeze after air cleaner, but before turbo charger. I never looked downstream but I suspect there was ice by throttle butterfly (this was fuel injected) because it felt like there was ice in there. Sitting for a few minutes had things melting and I was on my way. It would only happen when car was pushing engine, if power was commanded before motor quit all was fine after a hiccup or three. An intercooler was installed when this happened.

Ron Parigoris

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

On Feb 12, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I mounted my OAT probe inside the right wing root,aft of the spar. 	




Kevin,

Would that be "inside" the cavity in the wing, or within the space enclosed by the wing root fairing?

Fred



 [quote][b]

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:45 pm Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

Fred,

  

 Within the space enclosed by the wing root fairing.  I mounted it through the fuse at the outer layup for the crossbar. So the wires  are inside the baggage bay. I ran them up to the rest of the wire run under the  door sill. I covered it all by extending the fuel fill cover moulding, to cover  the aluminum fuel vent tube that goes down there on the way out toward the flap  hinge area. 

  

 Kevin

 103 hours and having lots of fun!

 [quote]   ---

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:44 am Post subject: Location for temperature sender/s

Hi Ron

Do you have an intercooler installed on your 914?



No I don’t  as I rarely use the Turbo boost except at short or high fields

I probably won’t bother,   (Extra weight when I’m already nose heavy) 



  

I would imagine worst case for potential ice would be fine pitch or at least 

Having the wind turn the prop with little to no throttle opening? 

Is that what you find? 



Actually the CHT’s and EGT’s drop faster when I close the throttle than the Inlet temp, The body of the turbo would take longer to cool down so still keeps the passing air warm, I will make a note to check this when I am next flying

I would also imagine the second you begin to increase MP close to ambient 

pressure having the prop pull the aero plane, the heating from turbo compressing air would raise temp above carb ice range.



When I have used the Turbo then Full power for a sustained climb it’s always the water temps that makes me flatten the climb not the inlet temp,

The thing I noticed is the inlet temp increased with height even though the OAT dropped at a constant throttle setting, I assume due to the lower density of the air passing the hot turbo,  Normal cruise 4800 at 28/29 MAP for me

Ivor

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