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rivet sets

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z601c(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: rivet sets

All was going semi-well with the mod kit, until I went to set the AD5 (and 

AD6) rivets. It seems I've never had a reason to set this size rivet, and 

don't have a matching rivet set. 



Unless I'm missing something, ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and the others where I 

usually buy tools don't seem to have sets this big for rivet guns. Has anyone 

found these? If so, where?



TIA.

-- 

========================================

                                       Jim B. Belcher

                                       BS,MS Physics

                                            A&P/IA

                      General Radio Telephone Certificate

                               Instrument Rated Pilot

                     Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

                                      601XL Builder

========================================

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: rivet sets

Hi Jim



I'm not sure of the problem, since all suppliers I have looked at have the 

rivet sets, e.g.,



http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID 602A&ReturnPage=/shop/search_result.aspx?PageNo=1



shows a rivet gun and sets including 3/16 and 5/32.



My problem is driving the big rivets w/o mangling the manufactured heads. 

The jury is still out, but my practice efforts are pathetic. See attached 

photo. I'm sure glad it's not on my spar.



Terry

At 02:47 PM 2/8/2010 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  All was going semi-well with the mod kit, until I went to set the AD5 (and

AD6) rivets. It seems I've never had a reason to set this size rivet, and

don't have a matching rivet set.



Unless I'm missing something, ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and the others where I

usually buy tools don't seem to have sets this big for rivet guns. Has anyone

found these? If so, where?



TIA.


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;

Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: rivet sets

Jim,

 

 I know that you can get them either at Brown Tool or US Industrial Tool & Supply.

 

 Jay

 

  

   

 

   

 

  --

DaveG601XL

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: rivet sets

Terry,



The only advice I can offer is this:

- FIRM pressure on the rivet gun against the manufacture head.  Do not let off on the gun pressure until after you let off on the trigger.

- Hold the gun very perpendicular.   Don't eye the shop head during the squeeze, keep attention of the rivet gun side.

- Use a fairly high air pressure.  I used 90 psi for the -6's and like 70 for the -5's.  You need to get to the point where you can drive a good rivet in around a second of trigger squeeze.  Milking them at lower pressure only makes a bad rivet.

- Practice makes perfect.  Rivets are cheap, keep on bucking!



Here is my end result on the center spar.  A few cosmetic edge marks are present on the rivet heads and they are acceptable.



Good luck,

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David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area

dsleepy47

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 41

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: rivet sets

What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look like?



Deems



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Mon C 8 Feb 2010 14:38:22 -0700

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 From: ttp44(at)rkymtn.net

 Subject: Re: rivet sets

 

 Hi Jim

 

 I'm not sure of the problem C since all suppliers I have looked at have the 

 rivet sets C e.g. C

 

 http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=2602A&ReturnPage=/shop/search_result.aspx?PageNo=1

 

 shows a rivet gun and sets including 3/16 and 5/32.

 

 My problem is driving the big rivets w/o mangling the manufactured heads. 

 The jury is still out C but my practice efforts are pathetic. See attached 

 photo. I'm sure glad it's not on my spar.

 

 Terry


	


 		 	   		  Your E-mail and MoreGBL/go/201469229/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now.  [quote][b]

_________________
dsleepy47
N1491R

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: rivet sets

Hi Deems



I've tried a variety of things, from a 3.5 lb bucking bar to the face of a 

10 lb sledge hammer. I think that the 10 lb sledge worked best. The shop 

heads look OK when I hold the bucking bar face normal to the rivet. When 

the bucking bar is crooked, the shop heads are pushed sideways.



I've developed a few theories. I'm going to have a helper hold the bucking 

bar so I can concentrate better on holding the rivet gun steady. I've been 

going through a rivet/drill out cycle that enlarges the holes a bit. I'm 

thinking that maybe the holes are too big, and so too much energy is needed 

to expand the shank to fill the enlarged hole.



Also, I'm using a well used 3X rivet gun that I bought off Ebay. Maybe it's 

just over the hill. Though I have a borrowed 3X rivet gun that is near new, 

and it didn't work as well.



Terry

At 05:23 PM 2/8/2010 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look 

like?



Deems


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;

Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

floyd wilkes

Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 39
Location: spring branch, tx

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: rivet sets

Terry,



Definitely use a helper.  The bucking bar must be normal to the rivet.



If the gun has a regulator on it, make sure it is turned way up.  If it was

set for smaller rivets, that setting will not work on the larger ones.



I used a 4X gun turned up to near max and a helper with a 5 lb bucking bar.

Worked very well.



Also, a piece of tape placed on the set will help reduce the smilies.



Floyd Wilkes



--

_________________
Floyd Wilkes

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: rivet sets

Hi Terry,

  

 I think your Theory is correct...   I am sure you will get better results using an already Trainned rivet gun ....         

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 Still waiting for my Upgrade Kit.

 Looking for a good ol' trained rivet gun. 



--- On Mon, 2/8/10, Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  (snip)

 

Also, I'm using a well used 3X rivet gun that I bought off Ebay. Maybe it's just over the hill. Though I have a borrowed 3X rivet gun that is near new, and it didn't work as well.



Terry

At 05:23 PM 2/8/2010 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look like?

 

 Deems


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;

Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.c"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List" target=_blank>http://="http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.c                         -Matt Dralle, List m/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


         [quote][b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:04 am Post subject: rivet sets

Terri

  

 Something tells me the small piece you are practicing with is to hard to  hold while riveting. I would suggest clamping the piece in a vise then hold  pressure at all times on the head of the rivet use your body weight if you have  to. hold the bucking bar against the rivet but let it bounce slightly as you  squeeze the trigger. You get smiley faces because the rivet gun bounced on the  rivet head from either removing the bucking bar before you stopped the gun or  you didn't hold pressure on the head. Just like flying when you get it you will  know it.

  

 BTW if you are using a 3 x gun it will just take longer to set the rivets  but it can be done. A 4 x makes a world of difference.

  

  

 Jeff

  [quote][b]

DaveG601XL

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:25 am Post subject: Re: rivet sets

For most of my rivets, I used the rivet set that is on the left of the attached picture.  I bought it from Aircraft Spruce.  I think it weighs a couple pounds.  For the center spar top rivets, it was a little tight getting to the underside shop heads.  I grabbed a piece of steel I had laying in the shop and it worked great.  It only weighs a 1/2 pound or so.  It is on the right side of the picture.  I did have to hold it a lot tighter since it was lighter.

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David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area

Geoff Heap

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 266
Location: Lindenwold, New Jersey

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:28 am Post subject: Re: rivet sets

Again. When you let go the trigger on the rivet gun, you should still have a lot of pressure on the rivet. Its easy to think you are safe to ease off at the same time but you 'll get a smile every time....Geoff

dsleepy47

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 41

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: rivet sets

Here is a chart of rivet size to bucking bar weight. With the right size gun, bucking bar and the right air pressure it should take 3 to 5 strokes of the gun to form the shop head. It looks like you are driving it way too long.



You need to get comfortable hitting them hard and quick. Assuming you have the correct size set that should work.

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dsleepy47
N1491R

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: rivet sets

Many, many thanks to all who responded. I think I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel. 



 Post Mortem: I believe that I had a combination of factors fouling up my riveting.   As Jeff says, it is vital that the piece be securely fixed. I thought I had done this with the jig, as shown in the photo 409. But I think that I was wrong. I now believe that the structure probably rocked backward with every blow from rivet gun, but the dynamics were such that the next rivet gun blow struck before the rivet rocked back under the set. The reult was a smashing of the bottom of the mfg'd rivet head. 
In trying to keep control of the rivet gun with one hand while I held the bucking bar with the other, I found that by reducing the air pressure to ~50 psi, I had better luck keeping the gun on the rivet. 
But, at this low pressure, my "well used" 3X gun probably required at least 5 seconds (and way too many impacts) to form the shop head. After 5 seconds of pounding, the mfg's head softened from compressive heating, and deformed easily (I produced some really awful mfg'd heads)!. It was probably impossible to drive the 3/16 rivets reliably with this low pressure because it just took too long. 
And, it required more skill that I have to hold the rivet gun steady in one hand and the bucking bar in the other while driving the rivet, so the rivet set moved around and obliterated the mfg'd head.  Pretty grim. So, I have made a much simpler jig to hole the practice bar, just 2-2x4's with a slot  on the edge to clear the rivets, bolted to the edge of my table. With this design, there is negligible lever arm to flex and bend under the rivet gun impact, see photo 415. My helper was not available today, so, for practice, I screwed a piece of 1/8" x 1" steel scrap to the back edge of the 2x4 with a 3/16" hole for a rivet, also shown in photo 415. Then I could put a rivet through the hole and practice riveting with full compressor pressure.



 It was fairly easy to hold the rivet gun in place with both hands and avoid mangling the mfg'd head. If I kept pounding long enough, the head would soften and deform. The force of the rivet gun was easily enough to drive the steel into the 2x4, resulting in a significant bend in the metal after a while.



 When my helper returns tomorrow, I'll try the new practice setup on the practice bar.



 One question--my heaviest bucking bar weighs 3 lb, 12 oz, probably heavy enough. But, who sells 5 lb bucking bars?



 Thanks again to all you who answered.



 Terry



 

 At 05:34 AM 2/9/2010 -0500, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Terri

  

 Something tells me the small piece you are practicing with is to hard to hold while riveting. I would suggest clamping the piece in a vise then hold pressure at all times on the head of the rivet use your body weight if you have to. hold the bucking bar against the rivet but let it bounce slightly as you squeeze the trigger. You get smiley faces because the rivet gun bounced on the rivet head from either removing the bucking bar before you stopped the gun or you didn't hold pressure on the head. Just like flying when you get it you will know it.

  

 BTW if you are using a 3 x gun it will just take longer to set the rivets but it can be done. A 4 x makes a world of difference.

  

  

 Jeff

 	
 

 

 Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; 

 Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

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