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Starter engaged light

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: Starter engaged light

At 01:53 PM 2/5/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Is this clutch protection found on SkyTec starters with a solenoid 

rather than a bendix for drive gear engagement?


	


   I think so. The "Bendix" was sort of an automatic disengagement

   because over-running the starter motor would cause the pinion

   to retract back down its spiral engagement track.



   All direct engagement drives operated by solenoid are

   at risk of over-run damage if they do not have another

   form of clutch . . . usually a "sprag clutch" on the

   pinion shaft.



 	  Quote: 	
		     My LED starter warning light has stayed on many seconds after a 

 successful start and made me wonder sometimes - I guess that's a 

 separate issue of back-EMF energizing the solenoid somehow?


	


   What kind of starter? If it's a PM starter =AND=

   you have the jumper installed between the starter

   solenoid "S" terminal and the Fat-Wire terminal, then

   yes . . . emf generated during spindown can keep

   the solenoid extended for an unnecessary length

   of time. This is why we recommend either a remote

   starter control relay (Z-22) =OR= direct control

   of the starter though a robust starter pushbutton.



 	  Quote: 	
		     I don't even have my wiring diagram in front of me at the 

 moment...I should keep quiet and learn something 


	


   It would be helpful to know what kind of starter, and how

   it's wired. But the phenomenon you're observing may

   be a condition needing some attention.



   Bob  . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: Starter engaged light

At 12:22 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   I am using a DPST momentary switch, with a lamp in it that is switched independently, wired to the coil of a starter contactor for my START button. I plan to wire the internal lamp to one side of the switch so that it goes on when the START button is depressed and also have a parallel wire going to the fat wire between the starter solenoid and the starter. So the lamp will light when I depress the START button and will go out when it is released...unless the starter solenoid is stuck closed and the fat wire between the starter solenoid and the starter is energized.

  

 See any glitches? 	


   The "starter engaged" light needs to get power from

   as far downstream as practical in the power/control

   wiring for the starter. The design goal for a starter

   engaged light is to annunciate a starter that is still

   powered AFTER the start button is released. The

   high risk cause for this is a stuck starter contactor.

   If you wire your starter engaged light to the start

   switch, then the only thing it can tell you is that

   the switch is stuck . . . if the contactor is stuck,

   it won't stay illuminated.



   If you're using an automotive starter contactor with

   an "I" terminal . . .



  http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s702wire.jpg



   . . . then attaching the starter engaged light

   to that terminal (protected by a 3A fuse) monitors THAT

   contactor. If your contactor is not fitted with an "I"

   terminal, then attaching the light wire to the downstream

   side of the starter contactor is a good thing to do.



   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: starter engaged light

At 01:35 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Good Afternoon 'Lectric Bob,

  

 I have a faint memory of a Cessna 210 having that sort of problem. I think that was the incident that prompted your old company to add starter engaged warning lights to their new production aircraft..Maybe around 1980 or so?

  

 Am I way off base here? 	


    Not at all. Starter engaged lights were added to a number

    of Beechcraft airframes as reports came in about damage

    to starters and ring gears from stuck contactors. I

    was struck by the notion that such a failure started a

    chain of events that brought the airplane down. It

    would be interesting to read the reports on the incident

    if they can be retrieved.



    Some years ago at OSH, some airshow performer reported

    having "teased a starter contactor closed with the

    g-loads of the performance" causing it it to weld and

    ultimately do a lot of damage to the starter and

    ring gear.



    It's almost a sure bet that the contactor stuck during

    cranking and was simply overlooked as the performer

    was pre-occupied with the immediate task. G-loads

    just don't close a starter contactor . . . they MIGHT

    close an OPEN battery contactor . . . but who flies

    around with a battery contactor open?



    Bob . . .

     [quote][b]

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XeVision

Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 26
Location: Ogden, Utah

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:14 am Post subject: Re: starter engaged light

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 01:35 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Good Afternoon 'Lectric Bob,

  

 I have a faint memory of a Cessna 210 having that sort of problem. I think that was the incident that prompted your old company to add starter engaged warning lights to their new production aircraft..Maybe around 1980 or so?

  

 Am I way off base here? 	


    Not at all. Starter engaged lights were added to a number

    of Beechcraft airframes as reports came in about damage

    to starters and ring gears from stuck contactors. I

    was struck by the notion that such a failure started a

    chain of events that brought the airplane down. It

    would be interesting to read the reports on the incident

    if they can be retrieved.



    Some years ago at OSH, some airshow performer reported

    having "teased a starter contactor closed with the

    g-loads of the performance" causing it it to weld and

    ultimately do a lot of damage to the starter and

    ring gear.



    It's almost a sure bet that the contactor stuck during

    cranking and was simply overlooked as the performer

    was pre-occupied with the immediate task. G-loads

    just don't close a starter contactor . . . they MIGHT

    close an OPEN battery contactor . . . but who flies

    around with a battery contactor open?



    Bob . . .

      	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




That is one reason why all of my solenoids are mounted sideways.

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_________________
LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance).

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: Starter engaged light

 	  Quote: 	
		      It's almost a sure bet that the contactor stuck during

     cranking and was simply overlooked as the performer

     was pre-occupied with the immediate task. G-loads

     just don't close a starter contactor . . . they MIGHT

     close an OPEN battery contactor . . . but who flies

     around with a battery contactor open?



     Bob . . .



 > [b]

That is one reason why all of my solenoids are mounted sideways.


	


   Why? Under what conditions of system operation and maneuvers

   in flight would you expect an increased risk of unintended

   behaviors?

   Bob . . .



                    ////

                   (o o)

    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========

    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   >

    < show me where I'm wrong.      >

    =================================

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: Starter engaged light

At 02:01 PM 2/8/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Hello Old Bob,

  

 Thanks for giving this some thought.

  

 The purpose of the lamp going on when I depress the starter is as a test of the lamp. 	


   The rule of thumb for lights that routinely illuminate

   during the process of getting ready for flight don't need

   press-to-test features. For example, the low volts warning

   light should be flashing at you before the engine starts

   and go out when the alternator comes on line. The starter

   engaged light should be illuminated while you're cranking

   and go out when you release the button. The criteria for

   "pre-flight-detectable" are satisfied.



   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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trumanst(at)neitel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:42 am Post subject: Starter engaged light

Bob,I was concerned when I read this post, as my OV/LV Sensor is just the opposite. 

The documentation that was provided from B&C states that "A flashing light indicates a bus voltage greater than 15.5 volts DC, ; Steady light indicates bus voltage below 12.5 volts DC."

That is how mine operates. Just trying to keep the confusion to a minimum.  

Thanks for all you do.



 Kevin Boddicker

Tri Q 200 N7868B 153 hours, and waiting for some flying weather!!!

Luana, IA.

 



On Feb 8, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

[quote] At 02:01 PM 2/8/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Hello Old Bob,

  

 Thanks for giving this some thought.

  

 The purpose of the lamp going on when I depress the starter is as a test of the lamp. 	


   The rule of thumb for lights that routinely illuminate

   during the process of getting ready for flight don't need

   press-to-test features. For example, the low volts warning

   light should be flashing at you before the engine starts

   and go out when the alternator comes on line. The starter

   engaged light should be illuminated while you're cranking

   and go out when you release the button. The criteria for

   "pre-flight-detectable" are satisfied.



   Bob . . .  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:54 pm Post subject: Starter engaged light

At 08:41 AM 2/9/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,

I was concerned when I read this post, as my OV/LV Sensor is just 

the opposite.

The documentation that was provided from B&C states that "A flashing 

light indicates a bus voltage greater than 15.5 volts DC, ; Steady 

light indicates bus voltage below 12.5 volts DC."

That is how mine operates. Just trying to keep the confusion to a minimum.

Thanks for all you do.


	


    Oh . . . THAT OV/LV sensor. Yeah, I designed that

    one too. We needed to achieve dual functionality

    of a single indicator hence flashing vs. steady

    light.



    But just the same, the light should be illuminated

    before you bring the alternator on line . . . and

    go out when the bus voltage rises supported by

    alternator output.



    That product was designed for ultra-lights that

    generally have small alternators and no ov

    protection. If your system DOES have OV

    protection, should will probably never see

    a flashing light. The OV event should detected

    and shut down so fast that by the time you

    see the light, it will be steady indicating

    a LV condition.



    In any case, the light DOES things during

    startup that meets the "pre flight testable"

    design philosophy without providing a separate

    PTT feature.



    Bob . . .

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