robertbrunk(at)mac.com
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 Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: RV10-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 02/28/10 |
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Please change my email address to robertbrunk(at)mac.com. Thank you
Sent from my iPhone
Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
606 N. Carancahua Street
Suite 1200
Corpus Christi, Texas 78476
Phone: 361-888-8808
Facsimile: 361-888-6753
robert(at)brunklaw.com
On Mar 1, 2010, at 1:59 AM, RV10-List Digest Server <rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> wrote:
[quote] *
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----------------------------------------------------------
RV10-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 02/28/10: 19
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:25 AM - I heard your email (rwayne(at)gamewood.net)
2. 07:54 AM - Re: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants (Les
Kearney)
3. 08:29 AM - Re: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants (Carl
Froehlich)
4. 09:06 AM - Re: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
(AirMike)
5. 11:32 AM - Re: RV12 (Masys, Daniel R)
6. 12:47 PM - Water ballast tank (Gordon Anderson)
7. 01:28 PM - Re: Water ballast tank (Kelly McMullen)
8. 01:28 PM - Re: Water ballast tank (DLM)
9. 01:51 PM - Re: Water ballast tank (Jim Berry)
10. 02:08 PM - Re: Water ballast tank (Tim Olson)
11. 03:55 PM - Re: Water ballast tank (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
12. 04:06 PM - Re: Water ballast tank (Rene)
13. 04:25 PM - does any one have a flight profile i can use on fltplan.com
? (Alan Mekler)
14. 07:14 PM - Re: OT & Cross Post - reflections on the
transition from analog (cjay)
15. 07:17 PM - Re: Re: OT & Cross Post - reflections on the
transition from analog (Seano)
16. 07:36 PM - Ideas for external power access panel (mouser)
17. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: OT & Cross Post - reflections on the
transition from analog (Kelly McMullen)
18. 07:58 PM - Re: Ideas for external power access panel (Linn
Walters)
19. 09:52 PM - Re: Ideas for external power access panel (davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net
)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 12:25:11 AM PST US
Subject: I heard your email
From: rwayne(at)gamewood.net
www.DriveSafe.ly read it to me. I will get back to you soon.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 07:54:16 AM PST US
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
Rick
Well after putting my wheel pants for the nth time, one of the screws
pulled
through before I could get some countersunk washers. The nice thing
about
fiberglass, perhaps the only thing, is you can alsways repair a
proplem
to
"like new".
What did you use to thin the epoxy (I haven't tried that yet)?
I was wondering if you made the washers "flush" with the surface of
the
pants? Did you recess them, build up the material around them with
something
like Superfil or just leave them proud of the wheel pant to be
painted?
Inquiring mind need to know
Les
#40643
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked(at)cox.net
Sent: February-26-10 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
Les use stainless countersink washers on the glass, brush thinned
epoxy
on
the fiberglass before using the washers, this will reinforce the hole,
the
washer will distribute the load.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
_____
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
Okay,
After = being severely repremanded about glassing in the nose
wheel
mounting bracket, I have = finished mounting my pants per the
plans. Now
I am concerned that the screw holes = are somewhat enlarged due
to
countersinking and will fail over time. Is = there a preferred
way to
reinforce screw holes in = fiberglass.
Inquiring mindfs need to know.
Les
#40643
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=B7~=89=B2,=03g'=D3=D3
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 08:29:42 AM PST US
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
I use stainless steel tinnermans with stainless steel flush screws on
all
fiberglass (spinner, empennage fairing, pants, etc.). The
fiberglass is
countersunk enough for the tinnermans to be flush. The tinnermans
go on
top
of the final paint. I like the look.
You end up with the screw spreading the clamping force over a much
larger
area than the screw head and on non-counter sunk fiberglass.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (525 hrs)
RV-10 (systems install)
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
Rick
Well after putting my wheel pants for the nth time, one of the screws
pulled
through before I could get some countersunk washers. The nice thing
about
fiberglass, perhaps the only thing, is you can alsways repair a
proplem
to
"like new".
What did you use to thin the epoxy (I haven't tried that yet)?
I was wondering if you made the washers "flush" with the surface of
the
pants? Did you recess them, build up the material around them with
something
like Superfil or just leave them proud of the wheel pant to be
painted?
Inquiring mind need to know
Les
#40643
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ricksked(at)cox.net
Sent: February-26-10 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
Les use stainless countersink washers on the glass, brush thinned
epoxy
on
the fiberglass before using the washers, this will reinforce the hole,
the
washer will distribute the load.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
_____
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
Okay,
After = being severely repremanded about glassing in the nose
wheel
mounting bracket, I have = finished mounting my pants per the
plans. Now
I am concerned that the screw holes = are somewhat enlarged due
to
countersinking and will fail over time. Is = there a preferred
way to
reinforce screw holes in = fiberglass.
Inquiring mindfs need to know.
Les
#40643
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"'>http://
www.matr
onics
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://
www.matronics.c
om/co
ntribution
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=B7~=89=B2,
_____
g'=D3=D3
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 09:06:08 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Reinforcing screw holes on wheel pants
From: "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>
I shoved some pieces of GRP that I had cut off of the doors (window)
under the
screw holes (epoxy/flox glue) and they are tight and tough.
--------
OSH '10 or Bust
Q/B - testing phase 1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288612#288612
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1041194_130.jpg
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 11:32:22 AM PST US
Subject: RE: RV12
From: "Masys, Daniel R" <dan.masys(at)vanderbilt.edu>
> John Cox writes:
Will forward you what I have from the TEEN FLIGHT project (RV-12) we
are
building at Van's. The plans start out as 11"x17" base sheets just
like
the RV-10 and Kinko's/FEDEX were nice enough to convert to PDF. We
have
four of the twelve Instructors with RV-12 experience. Your experience
pulling pop-rivets on the Rv-10 floor make you a natural to tackle the
12. I can also report how many Rotax sit on the shelves which tend to
be going out like Hotcakes at an EAA breakfast. Get ready to be
working
with gentle hands on the 0.020" skins. Lauren Paine has an article
appearing soon on the build project sponsored by the Center for Airway
Sciences.
John Cox -40600
-------------
I can second John's "gentle hands" comment with those 0.020 skins on
control surfaces of the -12. Having built a -7A and a -10 I started
handling the skins on the -12 like the prior two planes and promptly
got
a couple of fingerprint depressions in the trailing edges of the
rudder.
When they say 'light' in light sport, they mean it!
Also, be very careful about hole alignment, especially when building
up
the HS box spar. The differences of the hole alignments are so subtle
it is very easy to get the thing assembled upside down (especially
since
it's airfoil is symmetrical). Ask me how I know. 
Other than that, the only two things to be aware of building the -12
after you have built a -10 is how shockingly fast the assembly goes
(e.g., set 300 rivets and close out a wing top and bottom in a few
hours) and how Van's has fallen way behind their projected delivery
dates for the kits. Waited 5 weeks beyond the original projected ship
date for the wing kit, and 6 weeks (14 weeks total wait) for the
fuselage kit. Plan early and order those kits long before you need
them
or you'll have lots of time just sitting around waiting for the next
kit
to arrive.
-Dan Masys
RV-10 N104LD flying
RV-12 N122LD fuselage
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 12:47:54 PM PST US
From: "Gordon Anderson" <mregoan(at)hispeed.ch>
Subject: Water ballast tank
Folks,
I'm about to start riveting the VS and want to put my mind to rest
about W&B
issues before doing so. My concern is trying to optimize the W&B so
that the
use of ballast, if at all required, is as easy (and light) as
possible.
I anticipate running into a rear CG problem with 4 passengers and
baggage.
I'm assuming some moderate soundproofing and interior (circa 20lbs)
and the
MT 3-blade prop, which both move CG rearwards. My "solution" is to
move the
battery forwards to the firewall. This avoids having a rear CG
problem in
all practical circumstances, reduces cable weight and voltage drop
during
starting, but increases the issue with the inadequate elevator trim
when
flying solo or dual. To solve that, I proposed putting a water
ballast
tank near the tail, instead of using the traditional shot bags used
by Van's
in the demonstrator. This minimizes the weight required, and would
allow
dumping and refilling the ballast anywhere, anytime.
Vans have helped me in so much as confirming the following:
1. If loaded with a CG at front limit of 15% (ie. solo, no
ballast), the
plane can be landed OK with half flaps or a touch of power in the
flare.
2. A comfortable CG location for landing is around 18% or rearward.
3. Structurally, putting a water ballast tank in the tail is
"probably OK".
The VS appeared to be the preferred location rather than the rear
fuselage.
The space between the lower and middle inspar ribs is the perfect
volume.
4. Nothing disastrous will happen with the CG at 32%.
So now I'm considering 2 options:
Option 1: Move the battery forwards, add the water ballast tank (or
use a
lot of ballast in the baggage bay). No problem ever with the rear
CG, but
ballast is a must if flying solo, to keep behind 15%.
Option 2: Leave the battery where it is. Accept CG back to 32%.
Never need
to use ballast.
I would appreciate any feedback from those who are flying regularly
near
gross with passengers or who have the experience from flight
testing. Does
the plane really fly OK with a CG location slightly rear of limits?
Also, if anyone can help me find the summary weight and balance
table of all
the finished -10's I would be grateful. The rvproject link mentioned
in some
messages on the forum doesn't seem to work when I try.
Fly safe!
Gordon Anderson
Switzerland
VS primed (DuPont 825R/XB383 )
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 01:28:30 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Water ballast tank
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Why would you want to build in a tank? If you are full you won't need
ballast for sure. If you are solo, a collapsible 5 gal jug should be
plenty, that could easily be carried into FBO and filled, as opposed
to needing a hose or a container to get water to plane. Jug could be
easily secured in baggage. I'll let the flying folks comment on W&B,
but I sure wouldn't be adding complexity to your build at this stage,
and not in the VS. Better to worry about what primer to use, or not.
))
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Gordon Anderson
<mregoan(at)hispeed.ch> wrote:
> Folks,
> Im about to start riveting the VS and want to put my mind to rest
> about W&B
> issues before doing so. My concern is trying to optimize the W&B so
> that the
> use of ballast, if at all required, is as easy (and light) as
> possible.
> I anticipate running into a rear CG problem with 4 passengers and
> baggage.
> I'm assuming some moderate soundproofing and interior (circa 20lbs)
> and the
> MT 3-blade prop, which both move CG rearwards. My "solution" is to
> move the
> battery forwards to the firewall. This avoids having a rear CG
> problem in
> all practical circumstances, reduces cable weight and voltage drop
> during
> starting, but increases the issue with the inadequate elevator trim
> when
> flying solo or dual. To solve that, I proposed putting a water
> ballast
> tank near the tail, instead of using the traditional shot bags used
> by Van's
> in the demonstrator. This minimizes the weight required, and would
> allow
> dumping and refilling the ballast anywhere, anytime.
> Vans have helped me in so much as confirming the following:
> 1. If loaded with a CG at front limit of 15% (ie. solo, no
> ballast), the
> plane can be landed OK with half flaps or a touch of power in the
> flare.
> 2. A comfortable CG location for landing is around 18% or rearward.
> 3. Structurally, putting a water ballast tank in the tail is
> "probably OK".
> The VS appeared to be the preferred location rather than the rear
> fuselage.
> The space between the lower and middle inspar ribs is the perfect
> volume.
> 4. Nothing disastrous will happen with the CG at 32%.
> So now I'm considering 2 options:
> Option 1: Move the battery forwards, add the water ballast tank (or
> use a
> lot of ballast in the baggage bay). No problem ever with the rear
> CG, but
> ballast is a must if flying solo, to keep behind 15%.
> Option 2: Leave the battery where it is. Accept CG back to 32%.
> Never need
> to use ballast.
> I would appreciate any feedback from those who are flying regularly
> near
> gross with passengers or who have the experience from flight
> testing. Does
> the plane really fly OK with a CG location slightly rear of limits?
> Also, if anyone can help me find the summary weight and balance
> table of all
> the finished -10's I would be grateful. The rvproject link
> mentioned in some
> messages on the forum doesn't seem to work when I try.
> Fly safe!
>
> Gordon Anderson
>
> Switzerland
>
> VS primed (DuPont 825R/XB383 )
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 01:28:31 PM PST US
From: "DLM" <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: Water ballast tank
Have you accounted for the 25 pound tool and spares box that is
carried with
each experimental. Unless you carry all the service manuals (or the
tools)
how are you going to maintain/fix the aircraft away from home base.
Many
FBOs won't touch them with out manufacturers continued airworthiness
documents (insurance reasons). One must be prepared to maintain it
and have
a few spare parts available in the tool box; i,e, serviceable spark
plug,
master contactor, starter relay, spare cowl pin material, etc
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon
Anderson
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:45 PM
Subject: Water ballast tank
Folks,
I'm about to start riveting the VS and want to put my mind to rest
about W&B
issues before doing so. My concern is trying to optimize the W&B so
that the
use of ballast, if at all required, is as easy (and light) as
possible.
I anticipate running into a rear CG problem with 4 passengers and
baggage.
I'm assuming some moderate soundproofing and interior (circa 20lbs)
and the
MT 3-blade prop, which both move CG rearwards. My "solution" is to
move the
battery forwards to the firewall. This avoids having a rear CG
problem in
all practical circumstances, reduces cable weight and voltage drop
during
starting, but increases the issue with the inadequate elevator trim
when
flying solo or dual. To solve that, I proposed putting a water
ballast
tank near the tail, instead of using the traditional shot bags used
by Van's
in the demonstrator. This minimizes the weight required, and would
allow
dumping and refilling the ballast anywhere, anytime.
Vans have helped me in so much as confirming the following:
1. If loaded with a CG at front limit of 15% (ie. solo, no
ballast), the
plane can be landed OK with half flaps or a touch of power in the
flare.
2. A comfortable CG location for landing is around 18% or rearward.
3. Structurally, putting a water ballast tank in the tail is
"probably OK".
The VS appeared to be the preferred location rather than the rear
fuselage.
The space between the lower and middle inspar ribs is the perfect
volume.
4. Nothing disastrous will happen with the CG at 32%.
So now I'm considering 2 options:
Option 1: Move the battery forwards, add the water ballast tank (or
use a
lot of ballast in the baggage bay). No problem ever with the rear
CG, but
ballast is a must if flying solo, to keep behind 15%.
Option 2: Leave the battery where it is. Accept CG back to 32%.
Never need
to use ballast.
I would appreciate any feedback from those who are flying regularly
near
gross with passengers or who have the experience from flight
testing. Does
the plane really fly OK with a CG location slightly rear of limits?
Also, if anyone can help me find the summary weight and balance
table of all
the finished -10's I would be grateful. The rvproject link mentioned
in some
messages on the forum doesn't seem to work when I try.
Fly safe!
Gordon Anderson
Switzerland
VS primed (DuPont 825R/XB383 )
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 01:51:22 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Water ballast tank
From: "Jim Berry" <jimberry(at)qwest.net>
Have you considered what happens if the water in your VS tank freezes?
Jim Berry
40482
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288647#288647
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 02:08:17 PM PST US
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Water ballast tank
Definitely way too early to worry about it...and I don't think the VS
is a good spot for ballast. Sounds like you're way overthinking
things. Time to find a flying 10 and go for a ride.
Tim
On Feb 28, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why would you want to build in a tank? If you are full you won't need
> ballast for sure. If you are solo, a collapsible 5 gal jug should be
> plenty, that could easily be carried into FBO and filled, as opposed
> to needing a hose or a container to get water to plane. Jug could be
> easily secured in baggage. I'll let the flying folks comment on W&B,
> but I sure wouldn't be adding complexity to your build at this stage,
> and not in the VS. Better to worry about what primer to use, or not.
> ))
>
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Gordon Anderson
> <mregoan(at)hispeed.ch> wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Im about to start riveting the VS and want to put my mind to rest
>> about W&B
>> issues before doing so. My concern is trying to optimize the W&B so
>> that the
>> use of ballast, if at all required, is as easy (and light) as
>> possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> I anticipate running into a rear CG problem with 4 passengers and
>> baggage.
>> I'm assuming some moderate soundproofing and interior (circa
>> 20lbs) and the
>> MT 3-blade prop, which both move CG rearwards. My "solution" is to
>> move the
>> battery forwards to the firewall. This avoids having a rear CG
>> problem in
>> all practical circumstances, reduces cable weight and voltage drop
>> during
>> starting, but increases the issue with the inadequate elevator trim
>> when
>> flying solo or dual. To solve that, I proposed putting a water
>> ballast
>> tank near the tail, instead of using the traditional shot bags used
>> by Van's
>> in the demonstrator. This minimizes the weight required, and would
>> allow
>> dumping and refilling the ballast anywhere, anytime.
>>
>>
>>
>> Vans have helped me in so much as confirming the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. If loaded with a CG at front limit of 15% (ie. solo, no
>> ballast), the
>> plane can be landed OK with half flaps or a touch of power in the
>> flare.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. A comfortable CG location for landing is around 18% or rearward.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. Structurally, putting a water ballast tank in the tail is
>> "probably OK".
>> The VS appeared to be the preferred location rather than the rear
>> fuselage.
>> The space between the lower and middle inspar ribs is the perfect
>> volume.
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. Nothing disastrous will happen with the CG at 32%.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> So now I'm considering 2 options:
>>
>>
>>
>> Option 1: Move the battery forwards, add the water ballast tank (or
>> use a
>> lot of ballast in the baggage bay). No problem ever with the rear
>> CG, but
>> ballast is a must if flying solo, to keep behind 15%.
>>
>>
>>
>> Option 2: Leave the battery where it is. Accept CG back to 32%.
>> Never need
>> to use ballast.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would appreciate any feedback from those who are flying regularly
>> near
>> gross with passengers or who have the experience from flight
>> testing. Does
>> the plane really fly OK with a CG location slightly rear of limits?
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, if anyone can help me find the summary weight and balance
>> table of all
>> the finished -10's I would be grateful. The rvproject link
>> mentioned in some
>> messages on the forum doesn't seem to work when I try.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fly safe!
>>
>> Gordon Anderson
>>
>> Switzerland
>>
>> VS primed (DuPont 825R/XB383 )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 03:55:15 PM PST US
From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Water ballast tank
You must be a glider guy... I liked the tail ballast in my last ship
too. And the VS is a good place.
But with over 100 flying examples and little noise about ballast
issues,
there would seem to be better places to spend your efforts. Doors,
rudder trim, primer selection - they all cry for improvement.
Seriously, the scenarios you describe below suggest you would be
creating an operational issue rather than solving one (e.g. ballast
must
be in place for solo flight means checking it and no leaks can be
tolerated).
Bill "really wanting to fly this thing" Watson
do not archive
Gordon Anderson wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Im about to start riveting the VS and want to put my mind to rest
> about W&B issues before doing so. My concern is trying to optimize
> the
> W&B so that the use of ballast, if at all required, is as easy (and
> light) as possible.
>
> I anticipate running into a rear CG problem with 4 passengers and
> baggage. I'm assuming some moderate soundproofing and interior (circa
> 20lbs) and the MT 3-blade prop, which both move CG rearwards. My
> "solution" is to move the battery forwards to the firewall. This
> avoids having a rear CG problem in all practical circumstances,
> reduces cable weight and voltage drop during starting, but increases
> the issue with the inadequate elevator trim when flying solo or dual.
> To solve that, I proposed putting a water ballast tank near the tail,
> instead of using the traditional shot bags used by Van's in the
> demonstrator. This minimizes the weight required, and would allow
> dumping and refilling the ballast anywhere, anytime.
>
> Vans have helped me in so much as confirming the following:
>
> 1. If loaded with a CG at front limit of 15% (ie. solo, no ballast),
> the plane can be landed OK with half flaps or a touch of power in the
> flare.
>
> 2. A comfortable CG location for landing is around 18% or rearward.
>
> 3. Structurally, putting a water ballast tank in the tail is
> "probably
> OK". The VS appeared to be the preferred location rather than the
> rear
> fuselage. The space between the lower and middle inspar ribs is the
> perfect volume.
>
> 4. Nothing disastrous will happen with the CG at 32%.
>
> So now I'm considering 2 options:
>
> Option 1: Move the battery forwards, add the water ballast tank (or
> use a lot of ballast in the baggage bay). No problem ever with the
> rear CG, but ballast is a must if flying solo, to keep behind 15%.
>
> Option 2: Leave the battery where it is. Accept CG back to 32%. Never
> need to use ballast.
>
> I would appreciate any feedback from those who are flying regularly
> near gross with passengers or who have the experience from flight
> testing. Does the plane really fly OK with a CG location slightly
> rear
> of limits?
>
> Also, if anyone can help me find the summary weight and balance table
> of all the finished -10's I would be grateful. The rvproject link
> mentioned in some messages on the forum doesn't seem to work when I
> try.
>
> Fly safe!
>
> Gordon Anderson
>
> Switzerland
>
> VS primed (DuPont 825R/XB383 )
>
> *
> *
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 04:06:32 PM PST US
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: RE: Water ballast tank
I have an AFT CG (empty) and will be ADDING a battery to the fire
wall in
order to provide more backup power and move the CG forward. I also
tested
the airplane with the CG outside the aft CG limit and did not find any
problems. I loaded the airplane up to gross weight (2800) for me,
using
nominal (for me) pilot and Co-pilot weights, loaded some weight in
the
baggage compartment and then filled up the back seats. Until I got
to 2785
(if I remember right). That put the CG outside the envelope and
became
worse as fuel burned off. I tested the airplane in that config,
again no
handling problems. I did get a better break in the stalls, but that
is
normal as the CG moves aft. I also did my service ceiling testing
in that
config. (20,100).
I also flew the Vans Demonstrator for my transition training...
I am with Tim, you are way early in the process to be thinking about a
permanent mod. I think you are taking the right step first by asking
the
flyers...
In my early days on the list, the concern was about the forward
CG...so I
made some decisions during my build to move the CG aft..ELT
location...O2
location..Strobe Power supply...bigger battery. things I would do a
little
different if I built another RV-10.
I like the way the airplane handles with the CG in the aft 25% of the
envelope, BUT I think it handles great on the very front of the
forward CG
(Vans Demo). Everything you add (except oil) when flying is aft of
the
forward CG limit. And, you can always add temp ballast to the baggage
compartment if you want to move the CG back.
Just my opinion...
So...for this annual (my second one), I am putting a 680 on the
firewall
along with an additional contactor, mounting box, etc I will be
adding 17
lbs or so. I am also putting in the Safety Trim system and an
avionics
cooling fan (for DVD player...quits during summer after running for
2 hours
or more). Along with a little more interior work, I am hoping I
will move
the CG forward a little. As long as the 680 works well for the next
year, I
will then replace the 925 I have in back with a 680.
If all of that does not move my CG forward enough, I will move the
ELT up
next. A little extra weight in the tail can really move the CG Aft...
Rene'
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon
Anderson
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:45 PM
Subject: Water ballast tank
Folks,
I'm about to start riveting the VS and want to put my mind to rest
about W&B
issues before doing so. My concern is trying to optimize the W&B so
that the
use of ballast, if at all required, is as easy (and light) as
possible.
I anticipate running into a rear CG problem with 4 passengers and
baggage.
I'm assuming some moderate soundproofing and interior (circa 20lbs)
and the
MT 3-blade prop, which both move CG rearwards. My "solution" is to
move the
battery forwards to the firewall. This avoids having a rear CG
problem in
all practical circumstances, reduces cable weight and voltage drop
during
starting, but increases the issue with the inadequate elevator trim
when
flying solo or dual. To solve that, I proposed putting a water
ballast
tank near the tail, instead of using the traditional shot bags used
by Van's
in the demonstrator. This minimizes the weight required, and would
allow
dumping and refilling the ballast anywhere, anytime.
Vans have helped me in so much as confirming the following:
1. If loaded with a CG at front limit of 15% (ie. solo, no
ballast), the
plane can be landed OK with half flaps or a touch of power in the
flare.
2. A comfortable CG location for landing is around 18% or rearward.
3. Structurally, putting a water ballast tank in the tail is
"probably OK".
The VS appeared to be the preferred location rather than the rear
fuselage.
The space between the lower and middle inspar ribs is the perfect
volume.
4. Nothing disastrous will happen with the CG at 32%.
So now I'm considering 2 options:
Option 1: Move the battery forwards, add the water ballast tank (or
use a
lot of ballast in the baggage bay). No problem ever with the rear
CG, but
ballast is a must if flying solo, to keep behind 15%.
Option 2: Leave the battery where it is. Accept CG back to 32%.
Never need
to use ballast.
I would appreciate any feedback from those who are flying regularly
near
gross with passengers or who have the experience from flight
testing. Does
the plane really fly OK with a CG location slightly rear of limits?
Also, if anyone can help me find the summary weight and balance
table of all
the finished -10's I would be grateful. The rvproject link mentioned
in some
messages on the forum doesn't seem to work when I try.
Fly safe!
Gordon Anderson
Switzerland
VS primed (DuPont 825R/XB383 )
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 04:25:24 PM PST US
From: "Alan Mekler" <amekler(at)metrocast.net>
Subject: does any one have a flight profile i can use on fltplan.com
?
Does anyone have a flight profile for the Rv-10 that I can use on
fltplan.com?
Thanks,
Alan
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 07:14:30 PM PST US
Subject: Re: OT & Cross Post - reflections on the
transition from analog
From: "cjay" <cgfinney(at)yahoo.com>
I don't see where you draw the conclusion that gps is more capable
and reliable.
It is true the scenario revealed a flaw in the receive equipment
when the ILS
transmitter system had malfunctioned, and it is true that digital
systems can
achieve better error control, but two points - first ILS systems are
extremely
reliable and very few accidents can be accredited to ILS error when
the equipment
is maintained and operating correctly. Second, gps can malfunction
too,
one example is gps signals are very susceptible to interference
signals. This
happens much more than the kind of example shown in the ILS incident.
cjay
MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com wrote:
>
> Anyway, this had me reflecting on how much more capable and reliable
> digital based navigation (GPS) might be compared to analog based
> systems. In the above example, everything in the aircraft worked as
> designed. Procedures were for the most part, followed and executed.
> The automated navigation systems of the aircraft were prepared to
> fly it
> into the ground. The collective brain of the 3 pilots (NZ
> designation)
> was the only thing that saved a crash. Is a WAAS based overlay of
> the
> approach susceptible to a similiar sort of failure?
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288684#288684
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 07:17:34 PM PST US
From: "Seano" <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Subject: Re: Re: OT & Cross Post - reflections on the
transition from
analog
At least GPS has RAIM and will let you know when it is not
reccieving good
info.
---
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