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Figure Z?

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kjohnsondds(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: Figure Z?

Hi Electrical Gurus,

 I have been building a Zenith CH 801 for the past several years.  It has given me time to plan for engine placement and panel instruments.  Wiring the plane and panel has been a concern.  In placing questions on the internet regarding wiring, several people recommended this site, along with purchasing the AeroElectric Connection.  After reading the AeroElectric Connection, I was looking for a schematic that would reflect the engine I am using.  I am using a Mazda rotary engine that has been built by Dave Atkins.  It has a new Bosch AL394X alternator which indicates it rectifies 100% and has its own voltage regulator.  The engine comes with a Microtech LT-10 RX8 13B Sequential electronic engine management system.  

  

 Basically, this is an automotive engine.  It has one alternator and no magnitos.  It has been build to produce about 180 hp.  What Z wiring diagram fits this engine?

  

 The chapter on batteries suggests an Odyssey PC680 battery.  In doing research on this battery, it seems to be indicated for a motorcycle engine.  Would it provide enough cranking power?  Would the Odyssey PC925 battery be better?  Zenith recommends that the battery fit under the passenger seat.  Since the rotary engine is lighter than the recommended Lycoming 360, the engine will probably be place more anterior from the firewall.  This will leave room to mound an Odyssey PC680 mounted to the firewall.  It weighs 15.4 pounds.    ThePC 925 weighs 24 pounds and may be another story.

  

 In reading, many times it suggested that grounding the engine should be done through the engine pan.  Is there a reason why the engine pan is used VS gounding directly to the engine block?

  

 The Zenith 801 is a bush plane.  My goal in finishing the plane is to keep it as light as possible.  Over the last several months I have "listened" in on the discussion of fuses vs breakers and whether a transponder is needed.  Basically, I believe what a person really needs is a list of parts needed to wire a panel and where they can be purchased.  There were good suggestions on fuse blocks and cup holders, but many things are missing.  I guess it first begins with which Z diagram I need to use and then, I can go from there.

  

 I have studied Spanish for thirty years, and can do well.  However, if we had a discussion on auto parts in Spanish, I would be lost.  In reading your discussions on many issues, I feel like the kid who can tell you, "Where is the bathroom" in spanish, but is lost when asked to say more.  As a read more and more, I catch a little more.  However, there is a large void to fill.  

  

 Thanks for your discussions

  

 Ken Johnson

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longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: Figure Z?

Ken,



This is quite an assortment of questions. It will be best to break them down. These are typical questions which can each be answered individually. Be sure to spend time to search the list archives for individual topics. Many of them answered before.



On Batteries...



I use the PC680 which is 17AH and has plenty of umph to kick over my 200 HP IO-375. It fits my design goals. As far as weight, about 15 pounds and yes it could go under your seat. As far as true capacity is concerned, you'll need to do a full analysis of your design goals and mission before buying. Remember, contactors live near batteries, batteries live where your design needs them. Front, back, wherever. 



In General any good recumbent gas battery www.bandc.biz will work well in the aircraft and can be installed in any position.



Whoever wrote the book on grounding the airplanes electrical system via the engine oil pan is a complete Gomer. Hit him over the head. When's the last time you saw a battery ground go straight to the oil pan? The language may have intended another meaning. Bolt/Weld it to the block - that's it.



Bob has several Z diagrams which lend themselves to auto or electrical dependent installation. Again, the diagrams are based on missions success and ultimately what you want or want to tolerate in your design.



A bit of time and a good checkbook will fix most of the issues.



Enjoy,



Glenn 



--

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Figure Z?

Ken,

You could pick one of the Z-Drawings, add to it and modify for the rotary engine, then post your schematic for others to comment on.  If you do not know which drawing to start with, try Z-11.  I agree with Glenn that the ground wire should be attached to a solid part of the engine, not to sheet metal.  The PC680 should be adequate and meets your goal of light weight.  You could ask Dave Atkins opinion.  Do you have any information on the wiring requirements for the alternator or ignition?  What about a fuel pump?

Joe

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_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject: Figure Z?

 	  Quote: 	
		    What Z wiring diagram fits this engine?


	


     Z-19 is a best fit for electrically dependent engines

     with only one alternator.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

The chapter on batteries suggests an Odyssey PC680 battery.  In 

doing research on this battery, it seems to be indicated for a 

motorcycle engine.  Would it provide enough cranking power?


	


     The 680 is PLENTY . . . but you may want to consider

     two batteries for alternator-out operations. One for

     the engine, one for everything else.



     Do you have a load analysis? I.e. a listing of all

     electrical accessories and what their current demands

     are for normal operations?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

In reading, many times it suggested that grounding the engine should 

be done through the engine pan.  Is there a reason why the engine 

pan is used VS gounding directly to the engine block?


	


     Don't know why anyone would do that. The most substantial

     bolt to the block that is not TORQUE sensitive is the

     best place to get a robust electrical connection to

     the engine.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The Zenith 801 is a bush plane.  My goal in finishing the plane is 

to keep it as light as possible.  Over the last several months I 

have "listened" in on the discussion of fuses vs breakers and 

whether a transponder is needed.


	


     Breakers vs. fuses are a rather small weight trade off.

     Especially if your failure mode effects analysis suggests

     that two batteries are called for. Transponders are only

     useful if somebody on the ground (1) can even see you

     on radar and (2) give a rat's you know what where you

     are.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Basically, I believe what a person really needs is a list of parts 

needed to wire a panel and where they can be purchased.  There were 

good suggestions on fuse blocks and cup holders, but many things are 

missing.  I guess it first begins with which Z diagram I need to use 

and then, I can go from there.


	


     First you need to quantify the total energy budget

     for (1) normal operations and then (2) an austere budget

     for alternator out operations. Finally, decide what your

     personal design goals are for alternator out endurance.

     If you've got big fuel tanks then perhaps your batteries

     need to be commensurately big too.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have studied Spanish for thirty years, and can do well.  However, 

if we had a discussion on auto parts in Spanish, I would be 

lost.  In reading your discussions on many issues, I feel like the 

kid who can tell you, "Where is the bathroom" in spanish, but is 

lost when asked to say more.  As a read more and more, I catch a 

little more.  However, there is a large void to fill.


	


     That's what we're here for. Let's discover whether

     a D8 Cat is needed . . . or you can shovel enough electrons

     around with a garden tractor. Also, how many yards

     of dirt do you need to move? This energy management

     thing is a function of TIME, LOADS and under what

     conditions those loads must be functioning for you

     go get on the ground comfortably with a dead alternator.



     If you're flying day-vfr kinds of missions perhaps

     your energy requirements are modest . . . won't know

     until you list them and add 'em all up.



     Finding all the bits and pieces to wire it up is

     the stone simple part.



     Bob . . .

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kjohnsondds(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:43 am Post subject: Figure Z?

Thanks Bob for taking the time to respond.  In reviewing the Z-19 wiring diagram, I was wondering about the need for the extra battery?  I understand the need to be able to fly the plane without fuel being the limiting factor.  As far as load analysis, I do not have the flight instruments yet to determine my needs.   I do not have dual ignition, so a second battery as backup for that purpose would not be needed.  Thinking from another perspective, as my goal is to fly into remote areas, a second battery for utility use would be beneficial.  I know AirVenture, Oshkosh is still 4 months away, but if anyone will be there with their plane, let me know.  Viewing correct wiring practices would be beneficial to help me.  Thanks to  all who wrote to help me.  Ken Johnson 

 

   From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, March 6, 2010 3:03:36 PM

Subject: Re: Figure Z?



--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

 	  Quote: 	
		    What Z wiring diagram fits this engine?


	


    Z-19 is a best fit for electrically dependent engines

    with only one alternator.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The chapter on batteries suggests an Odyssey PC680 battery.  In doing research on this battery, it seems to be indicated for a motorcycle engine.  Would it provide  enough cranking power?


	


    The 680 is PLENTY . . . but you may want to consider

    two batteries for alternator-out operations. One for

    the engine, one for everything else.



    Do you have a load analysis? I.e. a listing of all

    electrical accessories and what their current demands

    are for normal operations?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 In reading, many times it suggested that grounding the engine should be done through the engine pan.  Is there a reason why the engine pan is used VS gounding directly to the engine block?


	


    Don't know why anyone would do that. The most substantial

    bolt to the block that is not TORQUE sensitive is the

    best place to get a robust electrical connection to

    the engine.



 	  Quote: 	
		   The Zenith 801 is a bush plane.  My goal in finishing the plane is to keep it as  light as possible.  Over the last several months I have "listened" in on the discussion of fuses vs breakers and whether a transponder is needed.


	


    Breakers vs. fuses are a rather small weight trade off.

    Especially if your failure mode effects analysis suggests

    that two batteries are called for. Transponders are only

    useful if somebody on the ground (1) can even see you

    on radar and (2) give a rat's you know what where you

    are.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Basically, I believe what a person really needs is a list of parts needed to wire a panel and where they can be purchased.  There were good suggestions on fuse blocks and cup holders, but many things are missing.  I guess it first begins with which Z diagram I need to use and then, I can go from there.


	


    First you need to quantify the total energy budget

    for (1)  normal operations and then (2) an austere budget

    for alternator out operations. Finally, decide what your

    personal design goals are for alternator out endurance.

    If you've got big fuel tanks then perhaps your batteries

    need to be commensurately big too.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have studied Spanish for thirty years, and can do well.  However, if we had a discussion on auto parts in Spanish, I would be lost.  In reading your discussions on many issues, I feel like the kid who can tell you, "Where is the bathroom" in spanish, but is lost when asked to say more.  As a read more and more, I catch a little more.  However, there is a large void to fill.


	


    That's what we're here for. Let's discover whether

    a D8 Cat is needed . . . or you can shovel enough electrons

    around with a garden tractor. Also, how many yards

     of dirt do you need to move? This energy management

    thing is a function of TIME, LOADS and under what

    conditions those loads must be functioning for you

    go get on the ground comfortably with a dead alternator.



    If you're flying day-vfr kinds of missions perhaps

    your energy requirements are modest . . . won't know

    until you list them and add 'em all up.



    Finding all the bits and pieces to wire it up is

    the stone simple part.



    Bob . . -=                    &==



         [quote][b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: Figure Z?

At 09:40 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks Bob for taking the time to respond.  In reviewing the Z-19 

wiring diagram, I was wondering about the need for the extra battery?


	


   That's entirely up to you. The original design goal

   spoke to having a battery that could support the needs

   of an electrically dependent engine (in this case I think

   it was a Subaru or maybe a Mazda . . . I forget) and

   second battery to support everything else.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I understand the need to be able to fly the plane without fuel being 

the limiting factor.


	


   That's a "need" only if you define it as such.

   It's your project. My suggestions and recommendations

   go to the idea of continuous improvement upon the best

   we know how to do. Just because some improvement exists

   does not mean you need to embrace it. If a 30 minute or

   one hour alternator-out endurance capability meets your mission

   requirements, so be it.



 	  Quote: 	
		     As far as load analysis, I do not have the flight instruments yet 

 to determine my needs.   I do not have dual ignition, so a second 

 battery as backup for that purpose would not be needed.


	


   So perhaps you've answered your own question . . .



 	  Quote: 	
		     Thinking from another perspective, as my goal is to fly into 

 remote areas, a second battery for utility use would be 

 beneficial.  I know AirVenture, Oshkosh is still 4 months away, but 

 if anyone will be there with their plane, let me know.


	


   Oh shucks, you asked another question . . . don't

   feel too beat up over this exercise. Very few of

   our fellow builders are even aware of a value

   for doing the exercise. What EVER you decide to do

   after your study will make you a more competent operator

   of the airplane because you UNDERSTAND more about

   how it works than to 90% of the GA pilots flying

   today.



   Bob . . .

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