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Emergency Procedures

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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:10 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures

We need a new subject to kick around.

  

 As I was drifting off to sleep last night got  wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day be saved  by flying inverted? Consider a landing where you would drag an engine in  the dirt and end up upright.

  

 Rick Neilsen 

 Redrive VW Powered  MKIIIC

   [quote][b]

jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:37 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Depends ,,,,,,,,,  what broke the cable  ?.   : )

  Jim Kmet

 912 MK-3C

 Cookeville, TN

 [quote]   ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:58 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Jim

  

 Good point. Lets assume something like corrosion.  Are there other things that could fail? Seems like John H uses something like a  5/16 cable. I saw one MKIIIC built with no kidding a 1/4 inch cable (defiantly  not recommended). A weld could fail some where. Let me perfectly clear I think  a plans built plane that is maintained isn't going to have a  problem.

  

 Just wondered if flying inverted could save the day  if a up elevator cable broke.   

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Rick/Gang:

  

 I use 1/8" up elevator cable, and have since I built my mkIII  in 1991.

  

 Two years ago I discovered the 3/32 cable stretched  considerably, reducing up elevator travel when flying two up in the newest  MKIIIx.  We changed to 1/8" cable and eliminated the problem.  Did not  compute difference in weight of the larger cable, but would think it would be  negligible and well worth the weight penalty.

  

 john hauck

 mkIII  

 Titus, Alabama

  

  

 [quote]    Seems like John H    uses something like a 5/16 cable.   Rick

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

>As I was drifting off to sleep last night got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day >be saved by flying inverted? Consider a landing where you would drag an engine in the dirt and end up >upright.

  

 >Rick Neilsen 

 >Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

  

  

   Rick,

  

   Good idea about a topic change.  Regarding losing an up-elevator cable, you would NOT need to try to fly inverted.  For me, I'd think that's a guaranteed way to die.

  

   When I was learning how to fly for my private pilot license, my instructor Loren (a girl), used to make me practice things such as you describe.  You can control the up elevator with trim.  You should have seen us spinning the trim wheel to get control.  All you'd need to do in a Kolb is set the trim to a slight decending postion, and control altitude with engine speed.

  

   For aileron loss, we'd open a door.  For a left turn, push the left door way out into the wind (with left rudder).  You will turn left!!  For a right turn, you do the right door (and rudder) the same way.  You won't spin on a dime, but you darn sure have "some" control!

  

   Back when I was able to fly quite frequently, I used to practice these types manuevers.  They're kind of fun.  At least you'd know what to do if you ever needed to.  

   I also liked to practice slight turns, right at the verge of stall.  I'd set my plane up to fly about as slow as it could, stall horn blaring, and then do lots of left and right turns.  My forward speed was practically nothing, when viewed from the ground, I'd bet!

  

   Practicing for all sorts of emergency situations is just plain smart.  The pilot that survives the best will likely be the one who practiced for the least expected event.  IMO

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII CX

  

   

  

  

  

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



	
 		 	   		  Hotmail: Powerful Free email with ect/01/' target='_new'>Get it now.  [quote][b]

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day >be saved by flying inverted?  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


Larry Born had an idea where he ran the elevator trim cable all the way back and attached on the elevator horn.  That way if the elevator cable broke,,,   pull  the elevator trim to max and use forward pressure on the stick for neutral and down elevator.   This way the trim cable holds the normal flight loads.  And the elevator cable only the movement loads, where it is much less likely to break or even stretch.  

   

Boyd Young   

       [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

At 05:04 PM 3/2/2010, b young wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Larry Born had an idea where he ran the elevator trim cable all the way back and attached on the elevator horn.  That way if the elevator cable broke,,,   pull  the elevator trim to max... 	


 I set the fixed trim tabs (bent aluminum) for a reasonably slow speed, around 40mph, figuring an otherwise controlled landing at that speed would be survivable.  Then I use a bungee to the elevator bellcrank for down trim to offset that for normal flight.



 -Dana

 

 --

  +REAL+ programmers use EDLIN to create Windows apps    [quote][b]

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

On final into a box canyon airstrip, I lost a rudder cable. With a tailwheel E-LSA - not a good thing! I was able to land without damage, but it made me decide to start practicing emergency maneuvers.

I have a mechanical trim tab (on the elevator) on my Drifter, and I found I was able to land using only the trim tab and throttle - no elevator input. I also practiced landing without a rudder - and, easiest of all, landing without aileron. I still practice these maneuvers each flying season, as well as true dead stick landings. It makes me feel much more confident that even if I miss something in my pre-flight, I'll probably be able to land.

Arty Trost

Sandy, Oregon

www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm

 "Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                       Helen Keller

 "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>

Subject: RE: Emergency Procedures

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 12:41 PM

      >As I was drifting off to sleep last night got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day >be saved by flying inverted? Consider a landing where you would drag an engine in the dirt and end up >upright.

 >Rick Neilsen 

 >Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

   Rick,

   Good idea about a topic change.  Regarding losing an up-elevator cable, you would NOT need to try to fly inverted.  For me, I'd think that's a guaranteed way to die.

   When I was learning how to fly for my private pilot license, my instructor Loren (a girl), used to make me practice things such as you describe.  You can control the up elevator with trim.  You should have seen us spinning the trim wheel to get control.  All you'd need to do in a Kolb is set the trim to a slight decending postion, and control altitude with engine speed.

   For aileron loss, we'd open a door.  For a left turn, push the left door way out into the wind (with left rudder).  You will turn left!!  For a right turn, you do the right door (and rudder) the same way.  You won't spin on a dime, but you darn sure have "some" control!

   Back when I was able to fly quite frequently, I used to practice these types manuevers.  They're kind of fun.  At least you'd know what to do if you ever needed to.  

   I also liked to practice slight turns, right at the verge of stall.  I'd set my plane up to fly about as slow as it could, stall horn blaring, and then do lots of left and right turns.  My forward speed was practically nothing, when viewed from the ground, I'd bet!

   Practicing for all sorts of emergency situations is just plain smart.  The pilot that survives the best will likely be the one who practiced for the least expected event.  IMO

 Mike Welch

 MkIII CX

 	  Quote: 	

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with ect/01/' target='_new'>Get it now.   	  Quote: 	
		  http://www======================

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Mike W/Gang:

  

 What works for a 172 doesn't necessarily work for a  Kolb.

  

 After you get your mkIII flying, give your  172 emergency procedures a try, then let us know how they worked out for  you and your Kolb.

  

 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 [quote]    

     When I was learning how to fly for my private    pilot license, my instructor Loren (a girl), used to make me practice things    such as you describe.  You can control the up elevator with    trim.  You should have seen us spinning the trim wheel to get    control.  All you'd need to do in a Kolb is set the trim to a slight    decending postion, and control altitude with engine speed.

    

     For aileron loss, we'd open a door.  For a    left turn, push the left door way out into the wind (with left rudder).     You will turn left!!  For a right turn, you do the right door (and    rudder) the same way.  You won't spin on a dime, but you darn sure    have "some" control!

    

      Mike    Welch

    

       

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Mike, since the stock MkIII trim is only a spring load on the cable, I doubt it would help much.As for going inverted, that sure doesn't sound appealing.  

BB



On 2, Mar 2010, at 3:41 PM, Mike Welch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >As I was drifting off to sleep last night got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day >be saved by flying inverted? Consider a landing where you would drag an engine in the dirt and end up >upright.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Rick Neilsen 

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 
	


 

  Rick,

 

  Good idea about a topic change.  Regarding losing an up-elevator cable, you would NOT need to try to fly inverted.  For me, I'd think that's a guaranteed way to die.

 

  When I was learning how to fly for my private pilot license, my instructor Loren (a girl), used to make me practice things such as you describe.  You can control the up elevator with trim.  You should have seen us spinning the trim wheel to get control.  All you'd need to do in a Kolb is set the trim to a slight decending postion, and control altitude with engine speed.

 

  For aileron loss, we'd open a door.  For a left turn, push the left door way out into the wind (with left rudder).  You will turn left!!  For a right turn, you do the right door (and rudder) the same way.  You won't spin on a dime, but you darn sure have "some" control!

 

  Back when I was able to fly quite frequently, I used to practice these types manuevers.  They're kind of fun.  At least you'd know what to do if you ever needed to. 

  I also liked to practice slight turns, right at the verge of stall.  I'd set my plane up to fly about as slow as it could, stall horn blaring, and then do lots of left and right turns.  My forward speed was practically nothing, when viewed from the ground, I'd bet!

 

  Practicing for all sorts of emergency situations is just plain smart.  The pilot that survives the best will likely be the one who practiced for the least expected event.  IMO

 

Mike Welch

MkIII CX

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



	


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 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Boyd/Gang:

  

 That wasn't an original idea.  Kolb used  redundant cables, then decided it was overkill and eliminated them.  

  

 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

  

  

  Larry Born  had an idea where he ran the elevator trim cable all the way back and attached  on the elevator horn.  That way if the elevator cable broke,,,    pull  the elevator trim to max and use forward pressure on the stick for  neutral and down elevator.   This way the trim cable holds the normal  flight loads.  And the elevator cable only the movement loads, where it is  much less likely to break or even stretch.

 [quote]      

    

Boyd Young 

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:25 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures

John,

 Are you refering to the continuous cable that  goes from the stick, to the up elevator horn and back forward to the elevator  trim lever?  If so, how does Kolb do it now?

 Denny Rowe, Mk-3, PA

 [quote]   ---

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures

About 15 years ago Kolb added a tab for the trim connection to the side of the elevator bell crank. The problem with running the cable all the way from front to rear is that when you use the trim, the elevator cables go slack. That was how my airplane was rigged when I bought it, I added the tab and the problem went away. 



Rick Girard



On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:24 AM, Denny Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net (rowedenny(at)windstream.net)> wrote:

[quote]        John,

 Are you refering to the continuous cable that  goes from the stick, to the up elevator horn and back forward to the elevator  trim lever?  If so, how does Kolb do it now?

 Denny Rowe, Mk-3, PA

 [quote]   ---

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:43 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Rick G/Gang:

  

 Standard factory Kolb MKIII's never used redundant up elevator  cables.

  

 The forward elevator bell crank located at the forward end of  the tailboom has not changed since serial number M3-001.

  

 If Rick's MKIII had a redundant cable that ran to the elevator  control mechanism at the aft end of the tailboom, it was a mod done by the  builder.

  

 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 [quote]    

About 15 years ago Kolb added a tab    for the trim connection to the side of the elevator bell crank. The problem    with running the cable all the way from front to rear is that when you use the    trim, the elevator cables go slack. That was how my airplane was rigged when I    bought it, I added the tab and the problem went away.   



   Rick Girard

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:43 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Denny R/Gang:

  

 The two Kolb aircraft I am not very familiar with are the  Twinstar and MKII.  It may have been the Twinstar that had, at one time, a  redundant up elevator cable that ran from the from the stick/cockpit to the  elevator control mechanism at tail end of the tailboom and back to the up  elevator trim lever.  If Dennis Souder is reading this, he can straighten  me out.

  

 MKIII owners/pilots will find that 1/8" up elevator cable will  increase control authority over the 3/32" cable that will stretch, especially  when flying two up.

  

 This is an easy, inexpensive way to improve positive control  of your MKIII.

  

 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 [quote]    

   John,

   Are you refering to the continuous    cable that goes from the stick, to the up elevator horn and back forward    to the elevator trim lever?  If so, how does Kolb do it now?

   Denny Rowe, Mk-3,  PA

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

John,

 Better check that one, my plans most surely have  the continuous cable as stated in my last reply to ya. No mention in there  of connecting the trim to the front bell crank.

  

 Denny

 [quote]   ---

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

John,

  My Mk-3 kit was produced in 91 but I did not  buy it from the original owner until the late 90s and only finished it in 2003.  Per the plans I rigged the continuous cable on the elevator and  trim.  3/32"

 I'll keep an eye on the feel of the cable but so  far so good, my planes pretty light, (470 pounds) and only 70 hp and still has  low hours. I have had passengers up to 270 pounds along and had plenty of  elevator, even touching down at idle.

 I was not aware they ever changed the elevator  rigging. Or maybe I forgot hearing about it. 

 Later,

 Denny

  

 [quote]   ---

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Rick,

 I have not noticed any slack in the elevator  in flight, I hope I remember to check this if our two feet of snow ever  melts before November!

  

 Denny

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures

Could be suffering from CRS.

  

 Wouldn't be the first time.

  

 I'll look at my plans and instruction book and see what I can  find.  Been a long time since I have been in them.

  

 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 [quote]    Better check that    one, my plans most surely have the continuous cable as stated in my last reply    to ya. No mention in there of connecting the trim to the front bell    crank.

    

   Denny

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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