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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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 Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Hi all ,
I,m really getting the urge to go on longer trips . Problem is
although I think my firestar is the almost perfect airplane . It is
too slow to keep up with the mk 3 s that the people that make
the long [several day X countries ] use . I know it would be a lot
more fun if I could join up with some of these groups . I have been
wondering what would happen if I clipped the wings on the firestr 2
until I had about 120 sq ft. Got 140+ now and possibly change to
squared off wing tips. My cruise speed is between 55 & 60 mph at
present Is it possible to get it up to where I could keep up.? I don't
won't to go to
another airplane but feel I 'm missing a large part of what flying is
all about. Sure would like the opinion of some of you older heads--not
older in years just in experience-- before I start chopping on my
airplane.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
HKS
Brownsville, TX
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h20maule(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:47 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Here are photos of my old FSII clipped wing amphib...i would cruise with SeaReys with ease...(80mph-ish) with a 582 and warpdrive.
daniel myers
| Quote: | From: frank.goodnight(at)att.net
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: clipped wings
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:06:29 -0600
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "frank.goodnight" <frank.goodnight(at)att.net>
Hi all ,
I,m really getting the urge to go on longer trips . Problem is
although I think my firestar is the almost perfect airplane . It is
too slow to keep up with the mk 3 s that the people that make
the long [several day X countries ] use . I know it would be a lot
more fun if I could join up with some of these groups . I have been
wondering what would happen if I clipped the wings on the firestr 2
until I had about 120 sq ft. Got 140+ now and possibly change to
squared off wing tips. My cruise speed is between 55 & 60 mph at
present Is it possible to get it up to where I could keep up.? I don't
won't to go to
another airplane but feel I 'm missing a large part of what flying is
all about. Sure would like the opinion of some of you older heads--not
older in years just in experience-- before I start chopping on my
airplane.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
HKS
Brow=======================
&g=================
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:48 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history, which includes my email address.
[quote] ---
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by0ung(at)brigham.net
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Hi all ,
I,m really getting the urge to go on longer trips . Problem is
although I think my firestar is the almost perfect airplane . It is
too slow to keep up with the mk 3 s that the people that make
the long [several day X countries ] use . I know it would be a lot
more fun if I could join up with some of these groups . I have been
wondering what would happen if I clipped the wings on the firestr 2
until I had about 120 sq ft. Got 140+ now and possibly change to
squared off wing tips.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
| Quote: | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|
Frank
I am not an aeronautical engineer,,, but this is my two cents worth. if you start chopping on what you have now you will end up with a higher wing loading with fewer ribs to carry the load. if you wanted a clip wing Kolb, you, in my humble opinion, would want to start from scratch on a new set of wings. now by clipping the wings and the higher wing loading you maybe want to increase the number of ribs, not sure about that one. on the other hand, I had thought that if I were to build a new set of wings. I would raise the leading edge up an inch or so. I have mentioned it on the list before and someone gave me a real good reply on what it would do. you might want to try looking up in the archives. but as I remember it would increase the speed, reduce the lift, change the angle of attack, and lighten my bank account. not necessarily in that order.
Boyd Young
Kolb mkIII
[quote][b]
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:55 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Frank,
I can't express an opinion about your wings, but I can tell you that if you cover your plane, streamline the struts and gear legs, you can fly with the HKS in the high 70's. You will burn a bit more gas, but you will go faster. This is something that I know about, but my OPINION is that cutting off part of the wings would make your plane less fun to fly around the patch.
Most of the fun of xc trips occur after everyone is on the ground not in the air. My point is that it may take you longer to get somewhere than the "Big Boys", but at the end of the day you can still be there. Or you could just play with someone your own size. 
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history, which includes my email address.
[quote] ---
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:48 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Along Boyd's line of thinking: the leading edge mod..... I would change to a larger diameter leading edge tube.If the bottom of the tube is still even with the wing bottom you will have effectively raised the leading edge.. The cruise speed will go up but stall may increase slightly.
Those little skinny diameter leading edges that all ULs seem to like, result in a wing that is always raised in front during cruise
which results in a lot of extra drag. General aviation airplanes stopped using these and went to blunt fronts back in the 30s.
I would also consider Rich Pike's tapered tips.
BB
On 7, Mar 2010, at 10:47 AM, b young wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi all ,
I,m really getting the urge to go on longer trips . Problem is
although I think my firestar is the almost perfect airplane . It is
too slow to keep up with the mk 3 s that the people that make
the long [several day X countries ] use . I know it would be a lot
more fun if I could join up with some of these groups . I have been
wondering what would happen if I clipped the wings on the firestr 2
until I had about 120 sq ft. Got 140+ now and possibly change to
squared off wing tips.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
| Quote: | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|
Frank
I am not an aeronautical engineer,,, but this is my two cents worth. if you start chopping on what you have now you will end up with a higher wing loading with fewer ribs to carry the load. if you wanted a clip wing Kolb, you, in my humble opinion, would want to start from scratch on a new set of wings. now by clipping the wings and the higher wing loading you maybe want to increase the number of ribs, not sure about that one. on the other hand, I had thought that if I were to build a new set of wings. I would raise the leading edge up an inch or so. I have mentioned it on the list before and someone gave me a real good reply on what it would do. you might want to try looking up in the archives. but as I remember it would increase the speed, reduce the lift, change the angle of attack, and lighten my bank account. not necessarily in that order.
Boyd Young
Kolb mkIII
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[quote][b]
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Frank,
if you have an adjustable pitch prop wind it up so it turns only 6000-6200 on take off.You can cruise it at 57-5800 all day,after you correct the jetting for that rpm,and get 70+ mph out of your Firestar if you have the nose cone and windshield on it.
G.AmanFS 2 w/550hrs before trading up.
--
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rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:43 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Frank --
I think you need to adjust your attitude, not your airplane!
* all long xc's I've done have been alone w/ no other planes; I set my own pace
* some short xc's are with groups; the slower people simply leave 15
minutes earlier (MUCH easier than chopping wings!)
* speed isn't the issue with xc's, it's distance you can go in a leg
* if you get someone to fly with you, they will likely fly slower so
you can fly together
* you're not missing "a large part" of aviation, only a tiny fraction
One of the perennial problems with xc flying is the "gotta get there"
mentality. That frame of mind can not only reduce your enjoyment of
the flight, but also create situations which could endanger your
well-being. Plan the flight and fly the plan, and make sure your plan
includes plenty of room for error (and headwind!). Then, sit back,
relax and enjoy the flight and the countryside.
-- Robert
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 9:06 AM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi all ,
I,m really getting the urge to go on longer trips . Problem is although I
think my firestar is the almost perfect airplane . It is too slow to keep up
with the mk 3 s that the people that make
the long [several day X countries ] use . I know it would be a lot more fun
if I could join up with some of these groups . I have been wondering what
would happen if I clipped the wings on the firestr 2
until I had about 120 sq ft. Got 140+ now and possibly change to squared
off wing tips. My cruise speed is between 55 & 60 mph at present Is it
possible to get it up to where I could keep up.? I don't won't to go to
another airplane but feel I 'm missing a large part of what flying is all
about. Sure would like the opinion of some of you older heads--not older in
years just in experience-- before I start chopping on my airplane.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
HKS
Brownsville, TX
|
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_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com |
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:02 am Post subject: clipped wings |
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Hi all,
Thanks to those that answered my post, I appreciate your time and
effort. Some of you answered off line with a longer and more involved
response than would have been of interest to the other people
on the list. The general conscience seems to be that it may be best to
put most of my effort into streamlining the plane and learn to use
what I am fortunate enough to have. Thats what I intend
to do , at least until I can gain enough experience to make an
informed decision of my own . Right now I'm just feeling my way.
Frank
On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Robert Laird wrote:
| Quote: | Frank --
I'm not sure if you've read my story of my flight from Minnesota to
Houston (http://www.texas-flyer.com/Minnesota/)... that's about the
same distance (one-way) as from where you are to Monument Valley.
Granted, I had a 582 behind me, but the Buccaneer is draggy as hell,
and my average speed wasn't much more than what you get. That
flight, along with a few others I took in ultralights, demonstrated
that speed wasn't all that important.
Will will probably adjust his speed to yours, so, no worries there.
I think doing whatever you can to streamline your aircraft is ALWAYS a
good idea, but clipping the wings just sounds like so much "let's see
what happens when I do this!" kind of thinking. Not such a good way
to proceed when dealing with aircraft.
I can tell you first-hand, I never have air-speed on my mind, when I
fly. Mainly I think about fuel and ground-speed, and how far to my
next fuel stop. Ground speed can be dog slow, even if you have a fast
plane, or fast, even if you have a slow plane. So, airspeed is
secondary. Having a GPS helps ENORMOUSLY, especially an aviation GPS,
so you can easily see how long it will take to get to the next
airport. With that, and knowledge of your fuel, you can become
confident that you have nothing to worry about (as long as the fan
keeps turning!).
There are many examples, besides myself, of people flying ultralights
across the country. John Hauck is the exception, since he has tons of
fuel onboard. Most pilots with his plane only carry about half of
what he has. Regardless, the other pilots still make the xc's, just
with a few more stops.
And those stops are almost always interesting. You get to meet new
people, see the countryside from ground-level, grab a bite to eat,
something to drink, and it's a LOT quieter, too!  So, just
because you have to stop often, that's just part of the adventure, and
nothing to be concerned about.
The biggest obstacle to a fun and safe adventure is yourself. There
have been plenty of times that my confidence lagged, my nerves got the
better of me, or I was impatient at something, or aggravated over
something else. But, as a rule, and on the whole, I plan my flight
very carefully, and I'm always faithful to myself about one thing:
don't hesitate to divert and/or land-out if I feel my safety is in
jeopardy. After I have done so, I never felt like it was a bad idea,
or regretted it; it's always been "well, it was probably a good thing,
on the whole."
And, as you've probably already felt with your shorter xc's, the
feeling of accomplishment at the end of the trip is simply wonderful!
So, I'm really not trying to talk you out of clipping your wings....
I'm really just trying to say, with or without clipped wings, you can
have many successful xc adventures. Just be sure to enjoy the
journey. The bonus to the MV trip is, at the end of the
gettin'-there, there's a bunch of really nice people!
-- Robert
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 5:08 PM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net
> wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> Thanks for your response. Glad to get some input about the mental
> side of X
> country flying, as well as what might be the result to the physical
> A/C if I
> change the wings.
>
> My plans are to fly from Brownsville TX to MV this spring. I will
> fly solo
> from Brownsville to El Paso , then get with Willuribe and we will
> fly the
> rest of the way together. total trip should
> be about 2500 miles. This will give me some experience flying X
> country
> solo, and with someone. Hopefully this will put me where I can make
> a better
> decision as to what I what to do.
> As of now 400 miles was my longest trip ---no overnight--- looking
> forward
> to learning.
>
> Frank Goodnight
>
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