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Alternative Alternators

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dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:07 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Hello to all, 

    Is anyone running a different alternator other than the 10 amp or the $600. plus 20 amp upgrade alternator from Jabiru ??  While this factory supplied charging unit is nice and light, I am finding other internally regulated alternators pushing 40 to 70 amps (if needed), that are less expensive. I have no idea how much the Jabiru 20 amp alternator and regulator system weighs, but the minor weight penalty by exchanging it with an after market internally regulated charging system to gain an additional 30 to 60 amps if needed, does not seem that bad of a trade off. I am quite capable and willing to properly fit one of these units to the back of my 2200A engine in exchange for what is there now. 

   Has anyone already converted their 2200, 3300's ???

  Thanks, Don

_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

I'm curious - what could you possibly install in a 701 that would require

that much electrical power?  We run a two screen EFIS, Electronic engine

monitor, electric flaps, electric fuel boost pump, wingtip nav / strobe

lights and a landing light on our Jabiru J170's that had the 2200 and 10 amp

alternator.  Back in 1998 my first Jabiru engine on a Titan Tornado ran

electric flaps, EIS Engine monitor, Electric boost pump, Landing Light, and

Whelan wingtip strobe / nav lights (big current draw there).



There was plenty of power.



What high draw equipment are you wanting to install?



Pete



--

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Don:

  

 GO FOR IT!

  

 The only thing you should check out is the FAN.

 Make sure it has the correct rotation for the engine.

  

 As I see it: $600 - $75 = $525 ... That buys a hell of a lot of fuel and I don't see you saving that much with the VSI increase you may get will 3 to 5 pounds lighter.

  

 Barry

 On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:07 AM, dons701 <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)>

 

Hello to all,

   Is anyone running a different alternator other than the 10 amp or the $600. plus 20 amp upgrade alternator from Jabiru ??  While this factory supplied charging unit is nice and light, I am finding other internally regulated alternators pushing 40 to 70 amps (if needed), that are less expensive. I have no idea how much the Jabiru 20 amp alternator and regulator system weighs, but the minor weight penalty by exchanging it with an after market internally regulated charging system to gain an additional 30 to 60 amps if needed, does not seem that bad of a trade off. I am quite capable and willing to properly fit one of these units to the back of my 2200A engine in exchange for what is there now.

   Has anyone already converted their 2200, 3300's ???

 Thanks, Don



--------

Zenith 701 #76120

Jabiru 2200A #2456  55 hours

Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop





Read this topic online here:

 

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289911#289========================

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[b]

dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative Alternators

Thanks for your responces   



  While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,  my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.

 

   It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok. 



  I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options 

       Thanks, Don

_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:58 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Hello Don:

  

 The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change the operation of the plane.  UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.

   

 Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating.  So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator.  OK, I know you are experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.  

   

 Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle the requirements.  If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP.  In a car the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.

   

 The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of mind as well as a solid working electrical system.  Especially one with NO NOISE on the radios   Very Nice Feeling.

   

 You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS!  You can not have too many.  Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc.   A good ground system improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.

   

  

 OK, GOOD LUCK DON!

  

 Barry

 



 

 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)>

 

Thanks for your responces



 While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,  my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.

 

  It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.

 

 I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options

      Thanks, Don



--------

Zenith 701 #76120

Jabiru 2200A #2456  55 hours

 Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998

 h as List Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:55 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not appropriate for the case at hand.  701’s are a good weather aircraft that is very light and usually lightly equipped.  FAA regs try to cover the worst case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs the equipment to fly IFR into class B airports.  I really don’t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.  

   

Also – I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electrical system.   Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to occur.  That’s why most avionics installers use a single point for ground of all instruments.  Ground loops will cause radio noise.  

   

I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load.  

   

Pete  

     

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Alternative Alternators  

  

     

Hello Don:  

    

   

    

The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change the operation of the plane.  UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.  

    

   

    

Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating.  So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator.  OK, I know you are experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.    

    

   

    

Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle the requirements.  If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP.  In a car the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.  

    

   

    

The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of mind as well as a solid working electrical system.  Especially one with NO NOISE on the radios   Very Nice Feeling.  

    

   

    

You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS!  You can not have too many.  Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc.   A good ground system improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.  

    

   

    

   

    

OK, GOOD LUCK DON!  

    

   

    

Barry  

    



 

    

    

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:  

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)>

 

 Thanks for your responces

 

  While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,  my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.

 

   It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.

 

  I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options

       Thanks, Don

 

 --------

 Zenith 701 #76120

 Jabiru 2200A #2456  55 hours

 Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998

 h as List Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====

 

 

   

  

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        [quote][b]

matronics(at)rtist.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Barry,

  

 Close but not entirely right. The AH value is a  multiplication of current(A) x hours(H) and indicates the amount of energy  the battery can store. A 20AH battery will support a 1A load for 20 hours or a  4A load for 5 hours. The value is only valid for a low-current  range, when you draw a lot of current you will not reach that  rating.  Your 20AH battery will not sustain 20A for an hour, or 40A  for 30 minutes..

  

 The start rating has nothing to do with the AH  rating. The start rating is an indication for the internal resistance of the  battery (usually the quality of the materials). There are 10AH  batteries that can supply 500A start current, but also 50AH batteries that will  not get over 100A due to high internal resistance. I use an Odyssey PC680 with  just 17AH, but the ability to supply 600A start current. Plenty for my Jabiru  3300 engine.

  

 For ground, the rule is to have one good solid  ground point, do not spread them all over the place. Take a single convenient  spot. Close to the battery and engine ground is often good. Run your ground  wires there. Do not spread them all over, as you run a big risk of ground loops.  Ground loops exist when multiple devices share a single current path to ground.  When one of them draws a lot of current or produces current spikes (strobes for  example), then the other devices share the resulting voltage drop and get a  noisy supply. If that is your radio, then you will hear the strobe whine through  the headset. It is better to run two separate thinner ground wires to a single  common ground point than to use a fat wire to the panel and fan out ground from  there. Run a separate ground/negative wire for  each device. Terminate them in a single point. 

  

 When using shielded wires, only attach the shield  to ground on one end. The only deviation from  that is the coax cables you use for COM, NAV and transponder antenna's, they  must be attached on both ends.

  

 Rob

  

 [quote]   ---

dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Alternative Alternators

Thanks for the info, many will benefit besides me.



 I purchased my plane already built, it starts immediately and runs good. I do have noise coming through the headset though, a popping crackly noise in the background. I will have to locate where all the grounds are besides what is visible. There are two grounds visible on the upper cross member on the engine side of the fire wall, one next to the battery with a cable to the engine starter mount per bulletin and another ground with much smaller gage wires on the pilot's side of the same cross member next to the starter relay. 

  

  The headset jack receiver boxes are attached (grounded) directly to the aluminum skin, I don't know if they should be insulated as I have read elsewhere on this site. 



  The breaker for the alternator must be disconnected after flight or it will cause a small drain from the battery. A separate switch, perhaps similar to a Cessna or other needs to be installed



I have more work to do.



  Thanks to ALL for your info, the continued responses will help many !! 

    Don

_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Hello Pete:



Not to debate FAA regs.  The requirement has nothing to do with IFR

aircraft, fair weather or foul.  It goes by LOAD REQUIREMENTS of the plane.

I did not say install a 100 AH alternator - Only that the alternator should

be able to handle 100% of the load at 65% of the output, it is a safety

margin.  Don can figure out what his load is and chose an alternator to do

the job.  No big challenge, but a safe idea.  And as you said: "I really

don’t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that

aircraft."  You are only equipping for the required load and a 35% safety

factor as well as a HP savings.  Let's say Don has a 30 Amp Load, that means

the alternator with safety margin would only be a 40.5 Amp alternator.

EASY!  Many alternators start at 50 Amps.

AHhhhh I knew some one would bring up Ground Loops - And ... There is a Man

in the MOON!  I know a lot about ground loops - Not everything - I know

about them at high frequencies - NOT AT DC.  Over the past 15+ years I have

put out a challenge for someone to design and make a ground loop that I can

build and test.  I still have not received that circuit!  It is a urban

myth, I don't know how it started but it should be stopped.  Please prove me

wrong.  The company I work for has spent $$$ trying to prove there is such a

thing as a ground loop - They are in the industrial end of the automotive

business, still no proof at DC.  At high frequencies YES.  Not DC.

Good idea Pete about the LED lights, they are even available as Strobes,

Marker and Landing Lights.  Costly but very low current draw.

Barry



On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> wrote:



[quote]  This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not

 appropriate for the case at hand.  701’s are a good weather aircraft that is

 very light and usually lightly equipped.  FAA regs try to cover the worst

 case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs the

 equipment to fly IFR into class B airports.  I really don’t see the need to

 equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.



 Also – I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electrical

 system.   Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to

 occur.  That’s why most avionics installers use a single point for ground of

 all instruments.  Ground loops will cause radio noise.



 I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load

dhonabach

Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:10 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

When I was building my 601HDS I really got caught up in questioning everything and trying to improve on other’s decisions/designs that I just knew had to be wrong. I’ve since learned that almost everything that I beefed up or ‘enhanced’ was a major waste of time/money although a lesson well learned for my next plane (shhhhh, don’t tell my wife!).  

   

With that in mind, I have a 3300A on my 601HDS using the stock alternator which is working GREAT. I do have a lot of gadgets (love my gadgets!) and found that by using dual LED landing lands and LED strobes that I was more than able to get within current/AMP limits. This also allowed me to use a smaller battery and save weight there as well.  

   

I also used a single point ground system even though my airplane is all metal. All the ground wires go into a tabbed grounding plate and I don’t have even have the hint of noise problems and so on. Hopefully, ten years from now I’ll be pretty happy that I took the time to do this. While for me I probably adding a few pounds of grounding cables, I now only have two places to check for ground issues if they occur – the single point ground block and the source device connector.  

   

Here are some links of pictures of my panel if interested:  

   

During Construction:  http://support.pcperfect.com/601hds/cp1.jpg  

In flight:  http://support.pcperfect.com/601hds/cp2.jpg  

Grounding Tab Block:  http://support.pcperfect.com/601hds/gp.jpg  

   

Good luck!  

   

Don Honabach  

   

       

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Krotje

 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:51 AM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Alternative Alternators  

  

  

   

This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not appropriate for the case at hand.  701’s are a good weather aircraft that is very light and usually lightly equipped.  FAA regs try to cover the worst case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs the equipment to fly IFR into class B airports.  I really don’t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.  

   

Also – I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electrical system.   Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to occur.  That’s why most avionics installers use a single point for ground of all instruments.  Ground loops will cause radio noise.  

   

I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load.  

   

Pete  

     

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Alternative Alternators  

  

     

Hello Don:  

    

   

    

The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change the operation of the plane.  UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.  

    

   

    

Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating.  So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator.  OK, I know you are experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.    

    

   

    

Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle the requirements.  If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP.  In a car the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.  

    

   

    

The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of mind as well as a solid working electrical system.  Especially one with NO NOISE on the radios   Very Nice Feeling.  

    

   

    

You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS!  You can not have too many.  Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc.   A good ground system improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.  

    

   

    

   

    

OK, GOOD LUCK DON!  

    

   

    

Barry  

    



 

    

    

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:  

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)>

 

 Thanks for your responces

 

  While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,  my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.

 

   It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.

 

  I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options

       Thanks, Don

 

 --------

 Zenith 701 #76120

 Jabiru 2200A #2456  55 hours

 Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998

 h as List Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====

 

   

  

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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Hello Rob:

  

 I'm sorry I don't see where you say I am not entirely right?  I did not over expand my explanation because it is not required.  

 I am very familiar with all that you mention but that was not the question, ergo not my response.

 

As for internal resistance.  Manufactures ALL attempt to keep the internal resistance (ir) low.  

 It is not in there quality interest to produce a battery with high ir.  The live cycle would be short and people would not 

 purchase their battery a second time.  There are a few misleading advertisement over the years which tend to lead you 

 to conclude the ir is lower in some batteries than others.  Again, a sales technique.  

 Unless you purchase a really poor Chinese Junk (pun intended) battery.

  

 I'm sure you know:  I = E/R  so yes you can get 200, 300, 500, 600 and even 1200 Amps from a battery.  

 I = 12/.01 = 1200 Amps.  But!  For how long?  That is not the issue.  Again sales has taken over and created a new term CCA

 Cold Cranking Amps.  This is totally arbitrary, why?  Because there is no standard for size of wires, length of the wires, 

 minimum voltage required by the starter, minimum or maximum current draw of the starter OR the size of the load on the starter.

 How is it said in French?  Caviaort Emptor!  [Hell I can spell in English!  Don't expect me to do it in French.] Let the Buyer be ware.

  

 Barry



 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl (matronics(at)rtist.nl)> wrote:

 [quote]  Barry,

  

 Close but not entirely right. The AH value is a multiplication of current(A) x hours(H) and indicates the amount of energy the battery can store. A 20AH battery will support a 1A load for 20 hours or a 4A load for 5 hours. The value is only valid for a low-current range, when you draw a lot of current you will not reach that rating.  Your 20AH battery will not sustain 20A for an hour, or 40A for 30 minutes..

   

 The start rating has nothing to do with the AH rating. The start rating is an indication for the internal resistance of the battery (usually the quality of the materials). There are 10AH batteries that can supply 500A start current, but also 50AH batteries that will not get over 100A due to high internal resistance. I use an Odyssey PC680 with just 17AH, but the ability to supply 600A start current. Plenty for my Jabiru 3300 engine.

   

 For ground, the rule is to have one good solid ground point, do not spread them all over the place. Take a single convenient spot. Close to the battery and engine ground is often good. Run your ground wires there. Do not spread them all over, as you run a big risk of ground loops. Ground loops exist when multiple devices share a single current path to ground. When one of them draws a lot of current or produces current spikes (strobes for example), then the other devices share the resulting voltage drop and get a noisy supply. If that is your radio, then you will hear the strobe whine through the headset. It is better to run two separate thinner ground wires to a single common ground point than to use a fat wire to the panel and fan out ground from there. Run a separate ground/negative wire for each device. Terminate them in a single point. 

   

 When using shielded wires, only attach the shield to ground on one end. The only deviation from that is the coax cables you use for COM, NAV and transponder antenna's, they must be attached on both ends.

   

 Rob

  

 [quote]  ---

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Hello Don:

  

 In 99% of the intercom and radio installations the Headset jack is INSULATED from ground.  

 1 - First check what the manufacture recommends.  

 2 - Second take a LQQK at the mounting of the jacks.  There should be a FIBER WASHER which insulates the jack from the case.  

 And since your metal case is mounted to the frame... Insulated from ground.

 Take an ohm reading from the JACK to GROUND it should show OPEN.

3 - Third the wires should be of the SHIELD type.  At the JACK's the shield is NOT connected to the ground.

 Here is a basic rule to follow:  RF (Radio Frequencies) these are frequencies that can transmit such as 121.5 Mhz, 

 the SHIELD is grounded at BOTH ENDS of the wire.

 AF (Audio Frequencies) these are frequencies which you HEAR, such as sounds from a speaker, 

 the SHIELD is grounded ONLY at the SOURCE, such as the back of the intercom or at the back of the COMM radio.

 5 - GROUNDS - A good LQQKing ground does not mean it is a good ground.  Aluminum is a poor conductor of 

 electricity and corrodes very easy.  You have to undo the connection, clean it with a brass brush, ALL PARTS, ALL CONTACT AREAS, 

 install new star lock washers on both sides of the washer... In contact with the aluminum and between the washer and nut.

 And if possible coat the connection with something like battery grease.  There are other tricks but lets stick to the simple and basics for now.

 

Question:  Does the sound change with the RPM?

 If so then you more than likely have alternator noise.

 If it is very crackly and also changes with RPM, than check your spark plug wires.

  

 Can you put a O-Scope on the headset jacks and see what frequency the noise is?

  

 OK, that is all for now.  Keep the info flowing.

  

 Barry

 ====================

 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:26 AM, dons701 <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote] --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)>

Thanks for the info, many will benefit besides me.

 

 I purchased my plane already built, it starts immediately and runs good. I do have noise coming through the headset though, a popping crackly noise in the background. I will have to locate where all the grounds are besides what is visible. There are two grounds visible on the upper cross member on the engine side of the fire wall, one next to the battery with a cable to the engine starter mount per bulletin and another ground with much smaller gage wires on the pilot's side of the same cross member next to the starter relay.

 

 The headset jack receiver boxes are attached (grounded) directly to the aluminum skin, I don't know if they should be insulated as I have read elsewhere on this site.



 The breaker for the alternator must be disconnected after flight or it will cause a small drain from the battery. A separate switch, perhaps similar to a Cessna or other needs to be installed

 

I have more work to do.



 Thanks to ALL for your info, the continued responses will help many !!

    Don



--------

Zenith 701 #76120

Jabiru 2200A #2456  55 hours

Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop





Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=290020#290020

   

 s such as List Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject: Alternative Alternators

I would guess by your posting that you know little about ground loops in aircraft wiring if you think multiple grounds do not produce the ground loop phenomenon.  We have rewired many customer panels where there were multiple ground points causing radio interference and noise.  We have considerable hands on experience in dealing with the issue.  It is a well known occurrence well known to avionics installers everywhere.  

   

As far as alternators – one can load up an airplane to the point it will be very systems redundant and capacity excessive to the point it will not even leave the ground.  Point is that the particular aircraft in question is VERY light and most likely will be operated day VFR.  The aircraft is not designed to the minimum systems necessary to allow fun sightseeing flights.  It’s not going very far cross country and is usually not going very high.  What’s the point of going overboard on systems redundancy or capacity.  From experience flying a 701 I know that there is very little continuous electrical load.  The alternator on the engine is fully capable of handling it.  Why try to kill the mouse with an elephant gun?  

   

Pete    

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:42 AM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Alternative Alternators  

  

     

Hello Pete:  

    

   

    

Not to debate FAA regs.  The requirement has nothing to do with IFR aircraft, fair weather or foul.  It goes by LOAD REQUIREMENTS of the plane.  I did not say install a 100 AH alternator - Only that the alternator should be able to handle 100% of the load at 65% of the output, it is a safety margin.  Don can figure out what his load is and chose an alternator to do the job.  No big challenge, but a safe idea.  And as you said: "I really don’t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft."  You are only equipping for the required load and a 35% safety factor as well as a HP savings.  Let's say Don has a 30 Amp Load, that means the alternator with safety margin would only be a 40.5 Amp alternator.  EASY!  Many alternators start at 50 Amps.  

    

   

    

   

    

AHhhhh I knew some one would bring up Ground Loops - And ... There is a Man in the MOON!  I know a lot about ground loops - Not everything - I know about them at high frequencies - NOT AT DC.  Over the past 15+ years I have put out a challenge for someone to design and make a ground loop that I can build and test.  I still have not received that circuit!  It is a urban myth, I don't know how it started but it should be stopped.  Please prove me wrong.  The company I work for has spent $$$ trying to prove there is such a thing as a ground loop - They are in the industrial end of the automotive business, still no proof at DC.  At high frequencies YES.  Not DC.  

    

   

    

   

    

Good idea Pete about the LED lights, they are even available as Strobes, Marker and Landing Lights.  Costly but very low current draw.  

    

   

    

   

    

Barry  

    

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com (pete(at)usjabiru.com)> wrote:      

This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not appropriate for the case at hand.  701’s are a good weather aircraft that is very light and usually lightly equipped.  FAA regs try to cover the worst case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs the equipment to fly IFR into class B airports.  I really don’t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.  

   

Also – I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electrical system.   Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to occur.  That’s why most avionics installers use a single point for ground of all instruments.  Ground loops will cause radio noise.  

   

I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load.  

   

Pete  

     

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Re: Alternative Alternators  

    

     

Hello Don:  

    

   

    

The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change the operation of the plane.  UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.  

    

   

    

Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating.  So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator.  OK, I know you are experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.    

    

   

    

Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle the requirements.  If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP.  In a car the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.  

    

   

    

The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of mind as well as a solid working electrical system.  Especially one with NO NOISE on the radios   Very Nice Feeling.  

    

   

    

You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS!  You can not have too many.  Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc.   A good ground system improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.  

    

   

    

   

    

OK, GOOD LUCK DON!  

    

   

    

Barry  

    



 

    

  

      

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:  

    

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)>

 

 Thanks for your responces

 

  While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,  my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.

 

   It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.

 

  I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options

       Thanks, Don

 

 --------

 Zenith 701 #76120

 Jabiru 2200A #2456  55 hours

 Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998  

  

h as List Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====

 

   

  

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        [quote][b]

matronics(at)rtist.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Hi Barry,

  

 The first part of your message lead me to  believe that you coupled AH to cranking amps, that's why I responded. I guess I  misread or misunderstood that part, my appologies. I guess that's what I get  from being a non-native speaker 

  

 Best regards,

 Rob (from The Netherlands, a lot closer to France,  and unable to speak a word of it 

 [quote]   ---

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Pete:



Obviously you did not read any of my postings carefully. Maybe to you it is

a "phenomena", I still am waiting 15+ years for someone to build me a DC

Ground Loop or draw me a functional DC Ground Loop circuit.  To me and

ENGINEERING it is a poor ground that is easily addressed.

Now, if you would like to take this off-line I will gladly discuss this

further with you.  Here on-line you are only perpetuating a myth.



But, for those reading this debate let's put in a few definitions:

1 - BAD GROUND = An electrical condition that is causing you problems.

2 - GROUND FAULT = ONLY exists with an AC circuit

3 - CORRECTION = What you do to eliminate the BAD GROUND

4 - NUMBER OF GROUNDS = Immaterial to GROUND FAULT - - ONLY needed to

prevent a BAD GROUND -- Beats trying to solve an in-flight problem

5 - IF YOU HAVE ONLY ONE GROUND = And it fails you are screwed!  If that

happens to be on your panel and you are talking to ATC you better not try to

enter Class C, B or A.  If it happens to your battery and you are going to

lose everything - especially if you have a CDI.



Also here is a very good definition of GROUND FAULT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)

Notice they only mention AC circuits.



And to para-phrase you:  'Ground Faults are a well known' Old Wives's Tail

when it comes to a DC circuit.

And the PROOF of it is:  How do you eliminate the problem?  Make a BETTER

GROUND.

NEVER FORGET - The problem is you are dealing with ALUMINUM and it CORRODES

and it is NOT A GOOD CONDUCTOR.

Simple request / answer.  Band together to kill the myth.  Least women pass

out from the 'Vapors'.



Barry



On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> wrote:



[quote]  I would guess by your posting that you know little about ground loops in

 aircraft wiring if you think multiple grounds do not produce the ground loop

 phenomenon.  We have rewired many customer panels where there were multiple

 ground points causing radio interference and noise.  We have considerable

 hands on experience in dealing with the issue.  It is a well known

 occurrence well known to avionics installers everywhere.



 As far as alternators – one can load up an airplane to the point it will be

 very systems redundant and capacity excessive to the point it will not even

 leave the ground.  Point is that the particular aircraft in question is VERY

 light and most likely will be operated day VFR.  The aircraft is not

 designed to the minimum systems necessary to allow fun sightseeing flights.

 It’s not going very far cross country and is usually not going very high.

 What’s the point of going overboard on systems redundancy or capacity.  From

 experience flying a 701 I know that there is very little continuous

 electrical load.  The alternator on the engine is fully capable of handling

 it.  Why try to kill the mouse with an elephant gun?



 Pete



 *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:

 owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE

 *Sent:* Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:42 AM



 *To:* jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Re: Re: Alternative Alternators



 Hello Pete:



 Not to debate FAA regs.  The requirement has nothing to do with IFR

 aircraft, fair weather or foul.  It goes by LOAD REQUIREMENTS of the plane.

 I did not say install a 100 AH alternator - Only that the alternator should

 be able to handle 100% of the load at 65% of the output, it is a safety

 margin.  Don can figure out what his load is and chose an alternator to do

 the job.  No big challenge, but a safe idea.  And as you said: "I really

 don’t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that

 aircraft."  You are only equipping for the required load and a 35% safety

 factor as well as a HP savings.  Let's say Don has a 30 Amp Load, that means

 the alternator with safety margin would only be a 40.5 Amp alternator.

 EASY!  Many alternators start at 50 Amps.



 AHhhhh I knew some one would bring up Ground Loops - And ... There is a Man

 in the MOON!  I know a lot about ground loops - Not everything - I know

 about them at high frequencies - NOT AT DC.  Over the past 15+ years I have

 put out a challenge for someone to design and make a ground loop that I can

 build and test.  I still have not received that circuit!  It is a urban

 myth, I don't know how it started but it should be stopped.  Please prove me

 wrong.  The company I work for has spent $$$ trying to prove there is such a

 thing as a ground loop - They are in the industrial end of the automotive

 business, still no proof at DC.  At high frequencies YES.  Not DC.



 Good idea Pete about the LED lights, they are even available as Strobes,

 Marker and Landing Lights.  Costly but very low current draw.



 Barry



 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> wrote:



 This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not

 appropriate for the case at hand.  701’s are a good weather aircraft that is

 very light and usually lightly equipped.  FAA regs try to cover the worst

 case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs the

 equipment to fly IFR into class B airports.  I really don’t see the need to

 equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.



 Also – I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electrical

 system.   Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to

 occur.  That’s why most avionics installers use a single point for ground of

 all instruments.  Ground loops will cause radio noise.



 I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load

dhonabach

Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: Alternative Alternators

For what it’s worth (and probably not much!), my major issue with multiple ground points is that it sets you up to have different ground references for your various devices which will/do lead to problems especially if the devices need to communicate with each other (i.e. radio and audio panel). In my book, much easier to setup one ground point that is well done then a whole bunch. If nothing else it just goes to the keep it simple thought process.  

   

As for the single point of failure, I think that is being a bit overly dramatic – most of us only have one engine, one pilot, one plane, one carburetor, one prop, one oil pump, and so on. Besides, having multiple failure points doesn’t necessarily mean it is safer, just more the failure analysis is more complex.  

   

Don H.  

     

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:14 PM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Alternative Alternators  

  

     

Pete:  

    

   

    

Obviously you did not read any of my postings carefully. Maybe to you it is a "phenomena", I still am waiting 15+ years for someone to build me a DC Ground Loop or draw me a functional DC Ground Loop circuit.  To me and ENGINEERING it is a poor ground that is easily addressed.    

    

Now, if you would like to take this off-line I will gladly discuss this further with you.  Here on-line you are only perpetuating a myth.  

    

   

    

But, for those reading this debate let's put in a few definitions:  

    

1 - BAD GROUND = An electrical condition that is causing you problems.  

    

2 - GROUND FAULT = ONLY exists with an AC circuit  

    

3 - CORRECTION = What you do to eliminate the BAD GROUND  

    

4 - NUMBER OF GROUNDS = Immaterial to GROUND FAULT - - ONLY needed to prevent a BAD GROUND -- Beats trying to solve an in-flight problem   

    

5 - IF YOU HAVE ONLY ONE GROUND = And it fails you are screwed!  If that happens to be on your panel and you are talking to ATC you better not try to enter Class C, B or A.  If it happens to your battery and you are going to lose everything - especially if you have a CDI.  

    

   

    

Also here is a very good definition of GROUND FAULT:  [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity[/url])  

    

Notice they only mention AC circuits.  

    

   

    

And to para-phrase you:  'Ground Faults are a well known' Old Wives's Tail when it comes to a DC circuit.    

    

And the PROOF of it is:  How do you eliminate the problem?  Make a BETTER GROUND.  

    

NEVER FORGET - The problem is you are dealing with ALUMINUM and it CORRODES and it is NOT A GOOD CONDUCTOR.  

    

Simple request / answer.  Band together to kill the myth.  Least women pass out from the 'Vapors'.  

    

   

    

Barry  

    

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com (pete(at)usjabiru.com)> wrote:      

I would guess by your posting that you know little about ground loops in aircraft wiring if you think multiple grounds do not produce the ground loop phenomenon.  We have rewired many customer panels where there were multiple ground points causing radio interference and noise.  We have considerable hands on experience in dealing with the issue.  It is a well known occurrence well known to avionics installers everywhere.  

   

As far as alternators – one can load up an airplane to the point it will be very systems redundant and capacity excessive to the point it will not even leave the ground.  Point is that the particular aircraft in question is VERY light and most likely will be operated day VFR.  The aircraft is not designed to the minimum systems necessary to allow fun sightseeing flights.  It’s not going very far cross country and is usually not going very high.  What’s the point of going overboard on systems redundancy or capacity.  From experience flying a 701 I know that there is very little continuous electrical load.  The alternator on the engine is fully capable of handling it.  Why try to kill the mouse with an elephant gun?  

   

Pete    

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:42 AM     



 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)  

    

Subject: Re: Re: Alternative Alternators  

  

  

     

Hello Pete:  

      

   

    

Not to debate FAA regs.  The requirement has nothing to do with IFR aircraft, fair weather or foul.  It goes by LOAD REQUIREMENTS of the plane.  I did not say install a 100 AH alternator - Only that the alternator should be able to handle 100% of the load at 65% of the output, it is a safety margin.  Don can figure out what his load is and chose an alternator to do the job.  No big challenge, but a safe idea.  And as you said: "I really don’t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft."  You are only equipping for the required load and a 35% safety factor as well as a HP savings.  Let's say Don has a 30 Amp Load, that means the alternator with safety margin would only be a 40.5 Amp alternator.  EASY!  Many alternators start at 50 Amps.  

    

   

    

   

    

AHhhhh I knew some one would bring up Ground Loops - And ... There is a Man in the MOON!  I know a lot about ground loops - Not everything - I know about them at high frequencies - NOT AT DC.  Over the past 15+ years I have put out a challenge for someone to design and make a ground loop that I can build and test.  I still have not received that circuit!  It is a urban myth, I don't know how it started but it should be stopped.  Please prove me wrong.  The company I work for has spent $$$ trying to prove there is such a thing as a ground loop - They are in the industrial end of the automotive business, still no proof at DC.  At high frequencies YES.  Not DC.  

    

   

    

   

    

Good idea Pete about the LED lights, they are even available as Strobes, Marker and Landing Lights.  Costly but very low current draw.  

    

   

    

   

  

    

Barry  

      

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com (pete(at)usjabiru.com)> wrote:  

        

This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not appropriate for the case at hand.  701’s are a good weather aircraft that is very light and usually lightly equipped.  FAA regs try to cover the worst case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs the equipment to fly IFR into class B airports.  I really don’t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.  

   

Also – I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electrical system.   Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to occur.  That’s why most avionics installers use a single point for ground of all instruments.  Ground loops will cause radio noise.  

   

I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load.  

   

Pete  

   

    

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM     



 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)  

      

Subject: Re: Re: Alternative Alternators  

  

  

        

     

Hello Don:  

    

   

    

The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change the operation of the plane.  UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.  

    

   

    

Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating.  So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator.  OK, I know you are experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.    

    

   

    

Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle the requirements.  If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP.  In a car the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.  

    

   

    

The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of mind as well as a solid working electrical system.  Especially one with NO NOISE on the radios   Very Nice Feeling.  

    

   

    

You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS!  You can not have too many.  Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc.   A good ground system improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.  

    

   

    

   

    

OK, GOOD LUCK DON!  

    

   

    

Barry  

    



 

    

  

      

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:  

    

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net (burdon1(at)comcast.net)>

 

 Thanks for your responces

 

  While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,  my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.

 

   It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.

 

  I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options

       Thanks, Don

 

 --------

 Zenith 701 #76120

 Jabiru 2200A #2456  55 hours

 Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998  

  

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dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative Alternators

WOW... 



 A few things for certain. I am about to begin Sport Pilot training in my 701 and my issues for right now are minor. I can fly now. 



  I know that no matter how many or how few ground connections one has they need to be clean. Doing this as I go will not take much time.  As for the radio noise I will do some troubleshooting by switching off the alternator at the breaker then listen for any change. Use my meter on the headset jack's female sockets and check for ground. If I find some continuity I can remove and insulate them and test again. etc..etc..

  

   I would love to upgrade to the Jabiru 20 amp system if I needed it or not as the engines come that way now from the factory, but the price is to steep for me. For that reason, at the beginning of this post in the enlightenment of experimentation, I asked if anyone had installed something different on their planes. 

   

   Perhaps I will kill two problems, occasional low voltage and some noise through the headsets by cleaning and testing my grounds.



  Thanks for ALL your thoughts.

     Don

_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

matronics(at)rtist.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:07 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Don,



There are other means. People have installed B&C SD-8 and SD-20 alternators 

on the vacuum pad of their engine. There are also some who added pulleys and 

a belt to the engine to run an automotive alternator. Examples are on the 

Jabiru engine group on Yahoo!.  It's all possible. You just have to ask 

yourself why. If your current setup aint broken, don't fix it...



Rob



---

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:18 am Post subject: Alternative Alternators

Hi Rob:

  

 Well you are two up on me.  I only speak a butchered version of English that should be know as American.  

 And I am even better at butchering the spelling, thank God for Spell Check.  

  

 One thing I have learned about the Web and emails is MANY, MANY Times the intent of the message is totally lost because 

 you loose the personal part that is transferred through voice inflections.  And I have a very difficult time with CAPITOL LETTERS.

 I was yelled at for using them because they are suppose to indicate that one is yelling.  HELL!  Who set up that rule, they never asked me about it.  

 I use capitols when I want to stress or impress a point.  

  

 I also tend to write like my old boss, a good mentor of mine.

 He was a professional witness in law suits on behalf of Cessna. I will NEVER be anywhere as good as he.  

 But he would drive lawyers crazy.  He very carefully picked his words when he sat in the witness box.  

 And one of his favorite saying was: "I did not say that; What I said was..."  And he would repeat himself WORD FOR WORD.

 That impressed the court stenographer and frustrated the lawyer.

 Anyway, I babble.  



Good meeting you Rob.  And if you catch me in error please chime in.

  

 Barry

 =================================

 On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl (matronics(at)rtist.nl)> wrote:

 [quote]  Hi Barry,

  

 The first part of your message lead me to believe that you coupled AH to cranking amps, that's why I responded. I guess I misread or misunderstood that part, my appologies. I guess that's what I get from being a non-native speaker 

   

 Best regards,

 Rob (from The Netherlands, a lot closer to France, and unable to speak a word of it 

 [quote]  ---

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