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Rudder puzzle

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rv10(at)colohan.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:26 pm Post subject: Rudder puzzle

I've reached page 7-6, step 4 --- and found my first puzzle.



When I went to cleco on the right R-1001 skin, I found that the holes near the rudder spar in piece R-1004B do not line up with the skin.  The holes in every other piece do line up with the skin.  As you approach the spar, the holes in the R-1004B piece appear to be lower than the holes in the skin.  Figuring maybe the right and left skin differed, I put on the R-1001 left skin, and it lined up and fit perfectly.  The two skins are punched identically.

 



It looks like the design doesn't account for the thickness of part R-1004A (and then some?) when sandwiching R1004-A and R-1004B together.

A picture is worth a thousand words.  So posted a bunch of photos here:

 



http://picasaweb.google.com/colohan/TailSection?authkey=Gv1sRgCK-Q2JfUgc73bw#5448246711194853154

 



Now, my question:  what can I do about this?  My choices seem to be:

a) get some metal and fabricate a R-1004B with holes which match the skin.

b) straighten out the 90 degree angle and try to rebend my R-1004B slightly differently to get this to line up.

 



c) turn some of the holes in either the R-1004B or skin into ovals so they reach the holes in the other piece.

As far as I can tell, the R-1005 horn is not improperly warped or bent in any way (which would explain this).  Is there an option I'm missing?  I fear that the best option is fabricating a replacement piece, but I don't think I have any metal of the appropriate dimensions (so I'd have to order some and wait).

 



Thanks!

Chris

  [quote][b]

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rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Rudder puzzle

Chris, 



I ran into same problem a couple months back. Yes, just on one side. Install clecos in EVERY hole first and don't be gentle. Once you start installing clecos you may find the the rudder horn slot may need to be opened up on the top side with file and or cutoff wheel about 1/16". 



You will run into another problem on hs rib hole alignment later on. Same thing. Don't be gentle. As perfect as the equipment is at Van's, it all depends on programming, operator, day of the week, machine wear, etc. It is best to get on here when you have misalignment, because it could be something installed incorrectly on your part.



There are many places that I have made notes in the plans if you want to go through them just call my cell and then you can note them too. *606* 316-9020. Some instructions are missing, not clear. I have a friend ahead of me a few months that helps me out before I get to the "easy to screw up points". 



Also it helps to have all the plans to look forward to later steps to see why or how a particular part is installed. One more reason I bought entire kit- in addition to shipping/price increases. Van's could just sell them to us. It isn't like were going to engineer this plane from the plans. There is not enough information. Check Tim Olsen's site if you are not already registered.

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_________________
Wayne G.

rv10(at)colohan.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:27 am Post subject: Rudder puzzle

Thank you for the advice!  Ever since I discovered I don't get the plans for the whole plane with my tail kit (bah!) I've been studying Tim's site every chance I have.  

If this was within the realm of "slightly misaligned, a bit of flexing can get it into the right place then match drilling will remove the misalignment" then I'd agree -- I could zipper it together by putting a cleco in every hole.  But I don't see how I can make up a 1/8" misalignment between two holes 1" apart without either stretching the skin or warping the structure. 



So I thought about this further, and took a few measurements.  I noticed that not only are the holes at the end of the R-1004B 1/8" too low, but also if I put a ruler from the spar onto the rib there is a 1/8" gap between the ruler and the rib.  This leads me to conclude that the source of the problem is that the 90 degree bend in R-1004B is misplaced.  (And if I forced it the result would be an unsightly inward wrinkle in the rudder skin.)

 



Thinking back, when I first separated my R-1004B from R-1004A, I noticed that some of the bits of metal joining the pieces came "pre-cracked".  I figured this might have been due to getting jostled in shipping, so I just filed the bits off and continued.  But another theory would explain it too:  when the sheet was put into the bending form, the metal in those spots couldn't handle the stress, and it cracked (I am assuming that the bends are made by smashing the pre-cut metal part in between a male and female forming jig -- is this correct?).  This resulted in a mis-aligned bend (and now the mis-aligned holes which I am seeing).

 



So I now see my options as:

a) Flatten out the 90 degree bend in the metal, and re-bend it 1/8" over.  (Will this weaken the metal?  I suspect it will, but I'm curious if my fear is misplaced.)

 



b) Get some sheet metal and fabricate a replacement part (sadly the "extra" metal provided with the kit is about 2" too short to make this part).

c) Re-order R-1004 from Van's, and hope this one didn't crack in the bending form.

 



I'm leaning towards (c).

Any opinions?

Chris



On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:29 PM, rv10flyer <wayne.gillispie(at)yahoo.com (wayne.gillispie(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)yahoo.com (wayne.gillispie(at)yahoo.com)>

  

 Chris,

 

 I ran into same problem a couple months back. Yes, just on one side. Install clecos in EVERY hole first and don't be gentle. Once you start installing clecos you may find the the rudder horn slot may need to be opened up on the top side with file and or cutoff wheel about 1/16".

  

 You will run into another problem on hs rib hole alignment later on. Same thing. Don't be gentle. As perfect as the equipment is at Van's, it all depends on programming, operator, day of the week, machine wear, etc. It is best to get on here when you have misalignment, because it could be something installed incorrectly on your part.

  

 There are many places that I have made notes in the plans if you want to go through them just call my cell and then you can note them too. *606* 316-9020. Some instructions are missing, not clear. I have a friend ahead of me a few months that helps me out before I get to the "easy to screw up points".

  

 Also it helps to have all the plans to look forward to later steps to see why or how a particular part is installed. One more reason I bought entire kit- in addition to shipping/price increases. Van's could just sell them to us. It isn't like were going to engineer this plane from the plans. There is not enough information. Check Tim Olsen's site if you are not already registered.

  

 --------

 Wayne Gillispie

 A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08

 Grayson, KY

 40983

 Ord complete kit 8/24/09

 DB Schenker del 11/20/09

 Started emp 12/01/09

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=290241#290241

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

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rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Rudder puzzle

2024-T3 does not like to be bent back and forth too much as it work hardens and gets brittle. You could possibly make a male/female block from oak to move bend line slightly. I would talk to Joe Blank at Van's before snf. Possibly ordering new part may be your best bet. Shipping and part won't be too bad. Good luck

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_________________
Wayne G.

mregoan(at)hispeed.ch
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: Rudder puzzle

I found a similar problem last week but looking into it harder I was convinced that the R1004A and B were wrongly punched.  Looking up the bottom of the rudder, the assembled bottom rib is close to 3/16” too narrow at the spar end, with the gap gradually opening up from the trailing edge.  The skin holes also match poorly as do yours.  

I rang Van’s, ordered a new part, and asked them to double check the pre-punched hole locations before sending.  

   

Don’t even think about flattening and rebending!  

   

Gordon Anderson  

Kit 41015 Empennage  

   

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Colohan

 Sent: 13 March 2010 23:24

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Rudder puzzle  

  

   

I've reached page 7-6, step 4 --- and found my first puzzle.    

   

    

When I went to cleco on the right R-1001 skin, I found that the holes near the rudder spar in piece R-1004B do not line up with the skin.  The holes in every other piece do line up with the skin.  As you approach the spar, the holes in the R-1004B piece appear to be lower than the holes in the skin.  Figuring maybe the right and left skin differed, I put on the R-1001 left skin, and it lined up and fit perfectly.  The two skins are punched identically.  

    

   

    

It looks like the design doesn't account for the thickness of part R-1004A (and then some?) when sandwiching R1004-A and R-1004B together.  

    

   

    

A picture is worth a thousand words.  So posted a bunch of photos here:  

    

   

    

http://picasaweb.google.com/colohan/TailSection?authkey=Gv1sRgCK-Q2JfUgc73bw#5448246711194853154  

    

   

    

Now, my question:  what can I do about this?  My choices seem to be:  

    

   

    

a) get some metal and fabricate a R-1004B with holes which match the skin.  

    

   

    

b) straighten out the 90 degree angle and try to rebend my R-1004B slightly differently to get this to line up.  

    

   

    

c) turn some of the holes in either the R-1004B or skin into ovals so they reach the holes in the other piece.  

    

   

    

As far as I can tell, the R-1005 horn is not improperly warped or bent in any way (which would explain this).  Is there an option I'm missing?  I fear that the best option is fabricating a replacement piece, but I don't think I have any metal of the appropriate dimensions (so I'd have to order some and wait).  

    

   

    

Thanks!  

    

   

    

Chris  

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       [quote][b]

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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rv10(at)colohan.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:23 am Post subject: Rudder puzzle

FWIW -- I called up Van's today and ordered a new part.  When I explained

why I was re-ordering it they insisted on giving it to me at no charge (even

though I offered to pay repeatedly, since I missed this problem during my

inventory).  Nice!



The more I interact with Van's as a company the more I like them.  



Chris



On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Gordon Anderson <mregoan(at)hispeed.ch> wrote:



[quote]  I found a similar problem last week but looking into it harder I was

 convinced that the R1004A and B were wrongly punched.  Looking up the bottom

 of the rudder, the assembled bottom rib is close to 3/16” too narrow at the

 spar end, with the gap gradually opening up from the trailing edge.  The

 skin holes also match poorly as do yours.



 I rang Van’s, ordered a new part, and asked them to double check the

 pre-punched hole locations before sending.



 Don’t even think about flattening and rebending!



 Gordon Anderson



 Kit 41015 Empennage



 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:

 owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Colohan

 *Sent:* 13 March 2010 23:24



 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Rudder puzzle



 I've reached page 7-6, step 4 --- and found my first puzzle.



 When I went to cleco on the right R-1001 skin, I found that the holes near

 the rudder spar in piece R-1004B do not line up with the skin.  The holes in

 every other piece do line up with the skin.  As you approach the spar, the

 holes in the R-1004B piece appear to be lower than the holes in the skin.

  Figuring maybe the right and left skin differed, I put on the R-1001 left

 skin, and it lined up and fit perfectly.  The two skins are punched

 identically.



 It looks like the design doesn't account for the thickness of part R-1004A

 (and then some?) when sandwiching R1004-A and R-1004B together.



 A picture is worth a thousand words.  So posted a bunch of photos here:





 http://picasaweb.google.com/colohan/TailSection?authkey=Gv1sRgCK-Q2JfUgc73bw#5448246711194853154



 Now, my question:  what can I do about this?  My choices seem to be:



 a) get some metal and fabricate a R-1004B with holes which match the skin

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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