Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - questions and opinions

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

questions and opinions

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: questions and opinions

I'm getting ready for my annual, and I've been thinking about how do I 

reduce potential points of failure.  So I'd like the group's opinion on a 

few things.



1.  Removing the rear flap and gear selectors. This would remove the 

selector from a potential failure/maintenance item.  it would also reduce 

the number of air lines and connections.



2.  Removing the rear magneto switch.   Since I don't fly back there, I'm 

the only pilot and only GIBs sit back there, why is it needed?



Also, I'm contemplating an oil system upgrade of adding a pre-oiler.  Except 

hose failure, I can't see much down side.  What are people using in their 

systems?

Finally, has anyone installed a linear actuator or other electronic means of 

opening and closing the gills and/or oil cooler door?

Bear

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: questions and opinions

1 - No reason that I can think of to not remove them.   Understand though that you will have to fabricate a by-pass for each ie: from  the goes-in-to side to the goes-out-to side since air pressure passes from the  rear cockpit controls to the front cockpit controls.  You  may want to design a way to plumb the lines directly to the front  instead of fabricating by-passes.

  

 2 - It's not needed except to become part of your spares  kit.

  

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:02 am Post subject: questions and opinions

Hi Bear,



     I can understand your interest in minimizing possible problem points.  But there are a couple of things that I can think of that would make me not do the things that you're thinking of.



     First, how big a problem for both failure and maintenance do the gear and flap selectors/lines/connectors pose? 



     I think there is a very small potential for failure and a fairly minor incidence of air leaks in the lines and connectors for the rear (instructor's) seat.  Failure and maintenance issues with the rear mag switch?  I think almost nil.  I expect your thoughts on removing the rear mag switch might center around a "gone rogue" gib turning your mags off because she/he is pissed at you...or "gee, it was so noisy, I thought I'd make it quiet".  In many years of fooling around with these airplanes, I've never heard of any gib turning off the mags accidently or on purpose.



     What about the person to whom you sell the airplane when you're through with it?  How is he/she going to get checked out in it?  



     Over the years, I've checked out quite a few new Yak 52 pilots...plus I've done a lot of type specific spin training and basic acro instruction in the 52....none of which would I have done in an airplane where I didn't have access to the gear, flaps or mags.  So, how will any future pilot get checked out in the airplane when you sell it?  Maybe other instructors would be willing to instruct in such a plane, but I don't know about that.



     Another issue that you might consider would be that of pilot incapacitation.  What if you've got a pilot gib and you have a bird strike that whacks you senseless?  Or you have sudden onset bad food poisoning, or other nasty physical thing that takes you out of the loop.  You've now compounded the first emergency (your incapacitation) with a second emergency....the back seater has to land the airplane gear up...and that will likely increase the time for emergency responders to get to you to deal with your physical problem.



     My personal take is that I wouldn't do it...not enough upside.  Your mileage may vary.  2¢ worth. 



Best regards,



Roger Baker_______________________________________________________ 

On Mar 22, 2010, at 10:26 AM, dabear wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm getting ready for my annual, and I've been thinking about how do I reduce potential points of failure.  So I'd like the group's opinion on a few things.

 

 1.  Removing the rear flap and gear selectors. This would remove the selector from a potential failure/maintenance item.  it would also reduce the number of air lines and connections.

 

 2.  Removing the rear magneto switch.   Since I don't fly back there, I'm the only pilot and only GIBs sit back there, why is it needed?

 

 

 

 Also, I'm contemplating an oil system upgrade of adding a pre-oiler.  Except hose failure, I can't see much down side.  What are people using in their systems?

 

 

 Finally, has anyone installed a linear actuator or other electronic means of opening and closing the gills and/or oil cooler door?

 

 

 Bear

terrycalloway(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: questions and opinions

Hey Bear,

I agree with Roger Baker.  I have done lots of instruction in CJ's and I don't like jumping in one that doesn't have the original dual operations.  I would also think it may reduce the resale value.



I too have considered a pre-oiler.  If you come across an affordable solution let me know.



I guess now you have 4 cents. 



Pumper

On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:26 PM, dabear wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm getting ready for my annual, and I've been thinking about how do I reduce potential points of failure.  So I'd like the group's opinion on a few things.

 

 1.  Removing the rear flap and gear selectors. This would remove the selector from a potential failure/maintenance item.  it would also reduce the number of air lines and connections.

 

 2.  Removing the rear magneto switch.   Since I don't fly back there, I'm the only pilot and only GIBs sit back there, why is it needed?

 

 

 

 Also, I'm contemplating an oil system upgrade of adding a pre-oiler.  Except hose failure, I can't see much down side.  What are people using in their systems?

 

 

 Finally, has anyone installed a linear actuator or other electronic means of opening and closing the gills and/or oil cooler door?

 

 

 Bear

Dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: questions and opinions

Guess I'll provide some more info.  The selectors I've replaced all (4) at 

least twice in 9 years of owning the CJ.  Not a lot, but I'd like to reduce 

the replacement/leak issues.  In talking with a few knowledgeable people, 

I'm told I should actually use the back selectors on occasion to minimize 

their decay.  I haven't (except for annual) used the back selectors at all 

in at least 6 years.



Not worried about someone turning off the mags, although I do fly young 

eagles a few times a year and you never know what a 11-18 y/o will touch/do. 

But most time's I've run out of air in during starting has been when a 

helpful GIB turns it off because that is what they do in their CJ/Yak.



You make good points about checking someone out, but it can be worked out. 

Doesn't seem to be an overwelming reason to keep them.  But I'm still 

listening.  Thanks for the comments.



Dabear

---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: questions and opinions

My two cents:



I'm not big on all of this re-engineering. These Russians seem to know  

what they were doing.



I know there are different philosophies, and I know not everyone likes  

their airplane to be stock. However, I think some of you guys have too  

much mechanical talent for your own good. The designers of these  

planes have considered (and addressed) all of this stuff. Perhaps I'm  

not experimental enough, but some of these Rube Goldberg contraptions  

seem like accidents in the making. If no one flies from the back, then  

by all means, take out the rudder pedals, stick, and all of the  

instruments as well. Reliability would more likely be improved by  

taking the time and money invested in such modifications and just  

flying more instead.



I know some people here have done some beautiful work on their planes,  

and some of these mods have worked for many hours. However, I wonder  

if there's a net gain over the approved methods, and I worry that it's  

too easy to overlook something important. Not trying to be a kill-joy  

here.





On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:26 PM, dabear wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm getting ready for my annual, and I've been thinking about how do  

 I reduce potential points of failure.  So I'd like the group's  

 opinion on a few things.



 1.  Removing the rear flap and gear selectors. This would remove the  

 selector from a potential failure/maintenance item.  it would also  

 reduce the number of air lines and connections.



 2.  Removing the rear magneto switch.   Since I don't fly back  

 there, I'm the only pilot and only GIBs sit back there, why is it  

 needed?



 Also, I'm contemplating an oil system upgrade of adding a pre- 

 oiler.  Except hose failure, I can't see much down side.  What are  

 people using in their systems?

 Finally, has anyone installed a linear actuator or other electronic  

 means of opening and closing the gills and/or oil cooler door?

 Bear

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: questions and opinions

--

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:39 am Post subject: questions and opinions

If one does decide to just remove the handles, I would suggest  at the very least, at each annual condition inspection the handles be  reinstalled and the gear and flap mechanisms in the rear cockpit be  exercised.  Without use they will corrode and once corrosion (and rust)  starts, the pneumatic system is destined to fail.  I have seen the pressure  spring inside a rear gear selector totally disintegrated from rust (it is a  steel spring) which caused the rear selector to leak.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:05 am Post subject: questions and opinions

Or some changes like the oil cooler we changed on the TW has now been adopted by the Romanians in their manufacturing.  There are other solutions besides mine, but clearly it was a problem the way it left the factory.

Green Bay has officially thawed.  First spring tune ups and flights yesterday. CAVU and 50 degrees!!!  Both Yaks - oil changed, air systems held all winter - life is good.   The lake is still frozen, but the air isn't.

Herb

On Mar 22, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 My two cents:

 I'm not big on all of this re-engineering. These Russians seem to know what they were doing.

 I know there are different philosophies, and I know not everyone likes their airplane to be stock. However, I think some of you guys have too much mechanical talent for your own good. The designers of these planes have considered (and addressed) all of this stuff. Perhaps I'm not experimental enough, but some of these Rube Goldberg contraptions seem like accidents in the making. If no one flies from the back, then by all means, take out the rudder pedals, stick, and all of the instruments as well. Reliability would more likely be improved by taking the time and money invested in such modifications and just flying more instead.

 I know some people here have done some beautiful work on their planes, and some of these mods have worked for many hours. However, I wonder if there's a net gain over the approved methods, and I worry that it's too easy to overlook something important. Not trying to be a kill-joy here.

 On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:26 PM, dabear wrote:

> 

> 

> I'm getting ready for my annual, and I've been thinking about how do I reduce potential points of failure.  So I'd like the group's opinion on a few things.

> 

> 1.  Removing the rear flap and gear selectors. This would remove the selector from a potential failure/maintenance item.  it would also reduce the number of air lines and connections.

> 

> 2.  Removing the rear magneto switch.   Since I don't fly back there, I'm the only pilot and only GIBs sit back there, why is it needed?

> 

> 

> 

> Also, I'm contemplating an oil system upgrade of adding a pre-oiler.  Except hose failure, I can't see much down side.  What are people using in their systems?

> 

> 

> Finally, has anyone installed a linear actuator or other electronic means of opening and closing the gills and/or oil cooler door?

> 

> 

> Bear

> 

> 

> 

>

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:48 am Post subject: questions and opinions

Yup... we've emerged in the Buffalo area as well.



Yeah, this is a smart bunch, and I noticed that the Romanians now also  

use that cheap electric fuel boost pump as well. I'm sure a lot of  

this comes from not knowing what a lot of you know, so I have to be  

conservative.

On Mar 23, 2010, at 1:03 PM, Herb Coussons wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Or some changes like the oil cooler we changed on the TW has now  

 been adopted by the Romanians in their manufacturing.  There are  

 other solutions besides mine, but clearly it was a problem the way  

 it left the factory.



 Green Bay has officially thawed.  First spring tune ups and flights  

 yesterday. CAVU and 50 degrees!!!  Both Yaks - oil changed, air  

 systems held all winter - life is good.   The lake is still frozen,  

 but the air isn't.



 Herb



 On Mar 22, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:



> 

> >

>

> My two cents:

>

> I'm not big on all of this re-engineering. These Russians seem to  

> know what they were doing.

>

> I know there are different philosophies, and I know not everyone  

> likes their airplane to be stock. However, I think some of you guys  

> have too much mechanical talent for your own good. The designers of  

> these planes have considered (and addressed) all of this stuff.  

> Perhaps I'm not experimental enough, but some of these Rube  

> Goldberg contraptions seem like accidents in the making. If no one  

> flies from the back, then by all means, take out the rudder pedals,  

> stick, and all of the instruments as well. Reliability would more  

> likely be improved by taking the time and money invested in such  

> modifications and just flying more instead.

>

> I know some people here have done some beautiful work on their  

> planes, and some of these mods have worked for many hours. However,  

> I wonder if there's a net gain over the approved methods, and I  

> worry that it's too easy to overlook something important. Not  

> trying to be a kill-joy here.

>

>

> On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:26 PM, dabear wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> I'm getting ready for my annual, and I've been thinking about how  

>> do I reduce potential points of failure.  So I'd like the group's  

>> opinion on a few things.

>>

>> 1.  Removing the rear flap and gear selectors. This would remove  

>> the selector from a potential failure/maintenance item.  it would  

>> also reduce the number of air lines and connections.

>>

>> 2.  Removing the rear magneto switch.   Since I don't fly back  

>> there, I'm the only pilot and only GIBs sit back there, why is it  

>> needed?

>>

>>

>>

>> Also, I'm contemplating an oil system upgrade of adding a pre- 

>> oiler.  Except hose failure, I can't see much down side.  What are  

>> people using in their systems?

>>

>>

>> Finally, has anyone installed a linear actuator or other  

>> electronic means of opening and closing the gills and/or oil  

>> cooler door?

>>

>>

>> Bear

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: questions and opinions

TW oil cooler was a Positec problem in manufacturing not the Russians.

Just ask a Positec engineer.  They offered a free replacement for a few years for the bad coolers.  Mine works fine.

yakjock(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: questions and opinions

Randy,



I concur with the guys who advised leaving the stuff in.  I did remove my rear mag, but that came along with doing a complete rewiring.



I do have a pre-oiler and use it regularly.  



I do use actuators for the iris (changed out the gill shutters) and the oil door.  Freed up a lot of panel space and easier to use.  Not so easy to install and wire.  If I was doing it over I would probably leave the original equipment in and shift to the modern cables (I have replaced all the old copper tube runs with the new cables).



I also have an aux electric fuel pump.

Hal

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: Re: questions and opinions

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Russian/Romanian engineering concerning the oil coolers on the TW.  I own the first TW ever made and the oil cooler (and the cooler housing) is without a single modification to it.  It works perfectly.  



If I fly on days with an OAT below 65F, I have to start blocking the oil cooler inlet to get my oil warm enough. If the oat is below 40F, I have to completely block off the cooler inlet to get the oil warm.



I have flown airshows on 90F days with both levers at the front stops for several minutes and the oil temp never exceeds 170F.



Some TW's do have oil temp issues.  I have several friends with TW's that have all kinds of modifications to their cooler housings to try to fix their oil temp problems.  IMHO, this is all a waste of time/money/effort.  The bone-stock original cooler/housing/location works just fine.



Their high temps are caused by something else, which I suspect to be the (American made?) oil coolers themselves.  Just my two cents worth.



-Steve Dalton

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:47 am Post subject: questions and opinions

I would agree with all the posts on oil coolers.  I know that there are several issues involved, location, design of the housing (several versions out there), the part itself.  Point being - there were issues with the design, parts used, etc with a large portion of the ones that left the factory.  They knew it, they did not know why and incorporated all kinds of fixes in later planes.  Much of the information came from pilots in the US trying different things on their own planes and the ultimate answer - some pilots had faulty parts was ultimately the answer.  I am only making the comment because to resign ourselves that the Russian design is "tested" and "right" is shortsighted.  There are problems and safety issues that we can improve.  Another example is the FOD / elevator problem.  I would say that the collective solutions of the yak community have saved lives in this area.



Herb

On Mar 24, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Mozam wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Russian/Romanian engineering concerning the oil coolers on the TW.  I own the first TW ever made and the oil cooler (and the cooler housing) is without a single modification to it.  It works perfectly.  

 

 If I fly on days with an OAT below 65F, I have to start blocking the oil cooler inlet to get my oil warm enough. If the oat is below 40F, I have to completely block off the cooler inlet to get the oil warm.

 

 I have flown airshows on 90F days with both levers at the front stops for several minutes and the oil temp never exceeds 170F.

 

 Some TW's do have oil temp issues.  I have several friends with TW's that have all kinds of modifications to their cooler housings to try to fix their oil temp problems.  IMHO, this is all a waste of time/money/effort.  The bone-stock original cooler/housing/location works just fine.

 

 Their high temps are caused by something else, which I suspect to be the (American made?) oil coolers themselves.  Just my two cents worth.

 

 -Steve Dalton

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291554#291554

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:13 am Post subject: Re: questions and opinions

Sometime during the production run of the Positec coolers the thermistor seat was machined too deep and the oil would by-pass the cooler without cooling and return it back to the tank.  I have seen everything from reversing the cooler to building air dams and lowering the cooler in a attempt to find cool air.  You have to ask yourself why a number of TW's  with no modifications work just fine. Not a placement issue but a cooler that had a small flaw and only showed up on those planes.  Unfortunately the story that the TW overheats continues to be projected.  I talked to several TW owners who are still unaware of the cooler "fix" and continue to fly them just the way they are.  actually I was amazed .

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum