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MK111Xtra

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bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: MK111Xtra

Hi Mike and  Vick.

  

      I have a MK111Xtra-912 and  have changed from the short aluminum legs to the longer steel legs. I did not  change the wing incidence at all and could not tell much change at all. On mine  when you throttle up the tail come up long before you reach lift off speed. In  fact I have to hold some back pressure to keep the plane at a level attitude  until I get about 45 mph and then just add some more back premature and you are  up and flying. Flying single I use 0 deg up trim,with a passenger about 4  notches of trim. Landing one notch of flaps ,I hold 60 mph on base, then 50 on  final and gradually come back on throttle and keep pushing it down to the runway  and when I am 1 to 2 feet off the runway come back on power and let it   settle down . I like to have my speed about 45 just above stall and it   will just settle down with no problem. I cant see any difference is the flying  the short gear of the steel gear..I do run the horizontal stab level with top of  the boom tube.If I have a pass I lower the stab 2 notches.

     I am glad I did not change the  wing incidence.

  

      Bill Futrell   MK111Xtra-912

  

  

    do not  archive

   [quote][b]

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:16 am Post subject: MK111Xtra

Bill

 Does your landing technique vary much from dual to  solo?

  

 Vic

 912 Xtra

   [quote][b]

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:09 am Post subject: MK111Xtra

I could not tell any  difference,but I could see if you land too hot and when the tail does go down it  could do a little propos so always keep in mind you are already holding down  stick pressure to push it down to the ground. Two takeoffs and landings and you  will not even think about anymore. If you are flying an Xtra and your horizontal  is about in the mid range of the boom tube. Get in touch with Travis and have  him send you a pair of the adjustable ones so you can get it up level with the  top of the boom tube.

  

       Thanks     Bill

  

     do not archive

 [quote]   ---

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:33 am Post subject: MK111Xtra

Bill,

  

   Did you build your Xtra?  If you did, I have a couple of questions for you.

  

 BTW, I just finished hooking up my wings.  I adjusted the flaps, and the ailerons, and checked them again about a dozen times.  Now, for the first time, I have my main wings

 mounted, and fully functional, and accurate!!

   

   I already have the tailfeathers mounted and adjusted to the factory suggested -4.8 degrees.  That is the position where the bottom of the front of the hor stab is close to the centerline of the boomtube.  Bill, are you suggesting I should raise it a little (close to where it used to be, in the MkIIIC position)?  (I have an adjustable stabilizer front mount)

  

 Mike Welch

  

 PS.  Bill, thanks for the very detail T/O and landing techniques.  Very informative .

  

 

 

  From: bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: MK111Xtra

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:07:33 -0400



         I could not tell any difference,but I could see if you land too hot and when the tail does go down it could do a little propos so always keep in mind you are already holding down stick pressure to push it down to the ground. Two takeoffs and landings and you will not even think about anymore. If you are flying an Xtra and your horizontal is about in the mid range of the boom tube. Get in touch with Travis and have him send you a pair of the adjustable ones so you can get it up level with the top of the boom tube.

  

      Thanks     Bill

  

     do not archive

 [quote] ---

bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:46 am Post subject: MK111Xtra

Mike that may be of for the  horizontal stab but you may need to add a couple of notches of trim. That's  where I had mine and did not like it.Flying solo which about all I do mine fly's  good with the top of the horz level with the boom tube.,,,but with 0 deg of  trim. Your may fly good that way and a little up trim.If I fly a pass I move the  horz down about where you have yours and 3 to 4 notches of trim. Yes I built it  from a kit.. If you want a picture let me know and I'll send you  one.

  

      Thanks    Bill

  

     Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: MK111Xtra

Hi Bill,

  

   Thank for the reply, Bill, and yes, I would greatly appreciate a photo.

  

   I've got to run off for a couple of hours (househusband chores), but when I get back, I have a couple of questions for you.

  

 Thanks again,   Mike Welch

 

  From: bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: MK111Xtra

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:45:49 -0400



  .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.ecxhmmessage {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10pt;}        Mike that may be of for the horizontal stab but you may need to add a couple of notches of trim. That's where I had mine and did not like it.Flying solo which about all I do mine fly's good with the top of the horz level with the boom tube.,,,but with 0 deg of trim. Your may fly good that way and a little up trim.If I fly a pass I move the horz down about where you have yours and 3 to 4 notches of trim. Yes I built it from a kit.. If you want a picture let me know and I'll send you one.

  

      Thanks   Bill

  

     Do not archive

 [quote] ---

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: MK111Xtra

I already have the tail feathers mounted and adjusted to the  factory suggested -4.8 degrees.  That is the position where  the bottom of the front of the hor stab is close to the centerline of the  boom tube.  Bill, are you suggesting I should raise it a little (close to  where it used to be, in the MkIIIC position)?  (I have an adjustable  stabilizer front mount)

 

Mike Welch

??????????????????????

  

 Mike

  

 on my mkIII c  I mounted the front of the horizontals  at the top of the boom tube, and the wings per the  instructions.     and have had no  problems.     I have checked my plans and building  instructions and have found no mention of - 4.8 deg on the  horizontals.    my  question...          -4.8 deg in  reference to what????   and what position is the reference point in  with regards to level, the cage, the boom tube,etc....   it seems that  they have changed some of the instructions since I built my mkIII,  so  without knowing the reference points the -4.8 means nothing to  me.    

  

 if you change the incidence of the wing, you will also  have to change the incidence of the stabilizers.   doing this will  change the incidence of the fuselage while in flight.   the relative  incidence of the wing and stabilizers should remain constant while in  flight.    changing the incidence of the wing should only be done  to change the position of the cage while in flight, to make it more comfortable,  better visibility, better handling with regards to the airflow around the cage  and the dynamic forces on the cage and structure from the  airflow.    

  

 many seem to want vg to slow the landing speed,  if  you decrease the wing incidence you will increase the take off  speed.   also as you change the cage incidence, you will need to  change the engine mounting.   

  

 changing the gear length only changes the incidence of  things while on the ground, not in the air,,,,,,   ok maybe a bit in  the air as the drag of the gear will be on a longer or shorter  moment arm  from the center of mass.

  

 if this doesn't help..  sorry

  

  

 Boyd Young MKIII

  

 do not archive.

   [quote][b]

bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:14 pm Post subject: MK111Xtra

Well mike that is where  mine flys best.I was just at the airport and forgot to take a picture. I will  get one for you. I weigh 200 lbs

  

     Bill

 [quote]   ---

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: MK111Xtra

Boyd,

  

   I set my tail feathers and main wing's incidences for a MkIII "Classic".  Most likely, my settings were exactly the same as yours are.

  

   But, as no doubt you are aware, my plane doesn't quite look like a MkIII Classic, anymore.  In fact, very few Kolb people could tell it isn't a genuine MkIII Xtra.

   While researching the incidences for an Xtra (since I knew they were NOT the same as a Classic), I called and talked to Brian (at) TNK.  (would that have been Brian Melborne??  I didn't catch his last name)

  

   Brian explained to me, when they got that very first Xtra built, someone test-flew it.  Whoever test flew it said that there was a significant "nose down" tendency, that they attributed to the wide, wedged nose, acting like a big scoop to the on-coming air.  With a high tail profile, almost all air was forced UP onto the wedge.  

   So, it was decided to lower the leading edge of stabilizers, effectively raising the leading edge of the wedge, which allowed more air to go below the nose, and thereby reducing the nose down tendency.

  

   Brian also explained to me that they also changed the Xtra's main wing tab mounting hole location.  Instead of it being 7/8" up from the bottom, it is now supposed to be down 7/8" from the top of the tab (or close to these points...use a digital level, of course).

   This higher tab mount hole effectively reduces the wing's incidence.  At this point, I can't recall exactly why.

   My phone conversation with Brian was almost two years ago, and the exact facts of what, why and when are getting a little fuzzy at this point.  It could be that the steel gear legs factored in to some of the adjustments, but I don't recall anymore.

  

   As some of you Kolb guys may be aware, I am "nearing" completion of some aspects of building my MkIII (after 10 years, it's about darn time!!).  About three weeks ago, I called TNK, and asked Travis if there were any precise digital incidence angles for an Xtra.  He said "yes, and handed the phone to Dennis, who gave me the following numbers;

  

 1) motor mount is to be level...first!!

 2) boom tube "should" be -6.1 deg (mine was incredibly close to that!!)

 3) hor. stabs are then to be set to -4.8 deg

 4) main wings are to be set to 3.4 degrees, with .6 degrees dihedral  (although I have heard from a few that more dihedral would be better.   I ended up with 1.6 deg, since my wing struts were already made, and I did NOT want to change them.  I'm happy with the final result!!)

  

   Yes, Boyd, old Kolb didn't say anything about -4.8 deg.  My MkIIIC plans seemed to reference inches most often, not degrees.  It is evidently a newer way to describe what the factory wants to advise for wing incidences....I'd guess.  

   And, yes, they changed the instructions, as I understand it.

  

   I hope I cleared up any confusion. 

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

  

 PS.  I also included an old photo of my MkIII I took a couple of years ago, prior to leaving Utah.  If you look closely, you can see the significantly steep wing incidence (in the previous MkIII Classic setting)

     My plane is MILES, HOURS, and LIGHT YEARS past this photo!!!  If spring ever stick around, I'll take some more up to date photos.    

  

  

  

   

  

 

 

  From: by0ung(at)brigham.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MK111Xtra

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:50:26 -0600



    

  I already have the tail feathers mounted and adjusted to the factory suggested -4.8 degrees.  That is the position where the bottom of the front of the hor stab is close to the centerline of the boom tube.  Bill, are you suggesting I should raise it a little (close to where it used to be, in the MkIIIC position)?  (I have an adjustable stabilizer front mount)

 

Mike Welch

??????????????????????

  

 Mike

  

 on my mkIII c  I mounted the front of the horizontals at the top of the boom tube, and the wings per the instructions.     and have had no problems.     I have checked my plans and building instructions and have found no mention of - 4.8 deg on the horizontals.    my question...          -4.8 deg in reference to what????   and what position is the reference point in with regards to level, the cage, the boom tube,etc....   it seems that they have changed some of the instructions since I built my mkIII,  so without knowing the reference points the -4.8 means nothing to me.    

  

 if you change the incidence of the wing, you will also have to change the incidence of the stabilizers.   doing this will change the incidence of the fuselage while in flight.   the relative incidence of the wing and stabilizers should remain constant while in flight.    changing the incidence of the wing should only be done to change the position of the cage while in flight, to make it more comfortable, better visibility, better handling with regards to the airflow around the cage and the dynamic forces on the cage and structure from the airflow.    

  

 many seem to want vg to slow the landing speed,  if you decrease the wing incidence you will increase the take off speed.   also as you change the cage incidence, you will need to change the engine mounting.   

  

 changing the gear length only changes the incidence of things while on the ground, not in the air,,,,,,   ok maybe a bit in the air as the drag of the gear will be on a longer or shorter  moment arm from the center of mass.

  

 if this doesn't help..  sorry

  

  

 Boyd Young MKIII

  

 do not archive.

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bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:31 pm Post subject: MK111Xtra

Well you know most of my  flying has been solo, the only thing that comes to mind is the tail will  come up sooner and you keep it level with elevator and the landing are pretty  much the same except I carry a little more air speed on the last 100 feet or so  like 50 mph and just keep pushing the nose down . The Extra just wants to keep  flying compared the Classic, at least that is what my friend said who had  Classic and he has flown mine. If anything it really fly's better with a  passenger.

  

      Thanks Bill

  

       Do not  archive

 [quote]   ---

lhaggerty(at)tampabay.rr.
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: MK111Xtra

I volunteer to be that passenger Pete

 [quote]   ---

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