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tonyrenshaw268(at)optusne
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:05 pm Post subject: Full Panel

Gidday,

I am all over the shop, to coin a phrase, but in the mean time I am trying to gather thoughts on a panel. Now I have seen Bob Borger's full width panel on EuropaOwners, and others, but am unsure if these have all been individually made, or whether Europa now sells them. There is a Tri Gear Instrument which I reckon still has the parcel shelf, and then there is a Blank Panel Full Depth Avionics Panel. I reckon neither of these are probably full "width" panels, so what I really want is some pictures somewhere of how guys have done this mod, or in fact whether someone sells a completed full "width" panel?

Reg

Tony Renshaw

Sydney Aussie

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: Full Panel

Tony,



The full-width instrument panel was purchased from Flight Crafters.  ( http://www.flightcrafters.com/ )  You'll have to contact them to see if they can make one for you.



Best regards,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232

Aircraft Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117





On Mar 23, 2010, at 17:53, Tony Renshaw wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Gidday,

 I am all over the shop, to coin a phrase, but in the mean time I am trying to gather thoughts on a panel. Now I have seen Bob Borger's full width panel on EuropaOwners, and others, but am unsure if these have all been individually made, or whether Europa now sells them. There is a Tri Gear Instrument which I reckon still has the parcel shelf, and then there is a Blank Panel Full Depth Avionics Panel. I reckon neither of these are probably full "width" panels, so what I really want is some pictures somewhere of how guys have done this mod, or in fact whether someone sells a completed full "width" panel?

 Reg

 Tony Renshaw

 Sydney Aussie

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: Full Panel

Tony, The thought occurs to me to wonder why anyone would want a full width 

panel these days? The only possible reason I can think of is to house a 

1960s array of steam aged instruments with a separate dial for everything, 

both navigational and engine monitoring. But with such great EFIS & engine 

management systems available now which save space & weight and allow you to 

spend much less time with your head in the cockpit while still having enough 

capacity to safely fly IMC, why not keep the undoubted benefits of a parcel 

shelf?

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:55 am Post subject: Full Panel

On 03/23/2010 11:53 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Gidday, I am all over the shop, to coin a phrase, but in the mean

 time I am trying to gather thoughts on a panel. Now I have seen Bob

 Borger's full width panel on EuropaOwners, and others, but am unsure

 if these have all been individually made, or whether Europa now sells

 them. There is a Tri Gear Instrument which I reckon still has the

 parcel shelf, and then there is a Blank Panel Full Depth Avionics

 Panel. I reckon neither of these are probably full "width" panels, so

 what I really want is some pictures somewhere of how guys have done

 this mod, or in fact whether someone sells a completed full "width"

 panel?


	


You might want to take a look at our build page,

www.privatepilots.nl/europa/building.htm

We have a full width panel, and made this ourselves.

It is just a matter of modelling. We built a frame from wood, and then

some layer of clay on top of it to model the glade shield.  A few layers

of bid over it, digg out all the stuff once it is cured, and presto, you

have an instrument panel.



Frans

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:47 am Post subject: Full Panel

On 03/24/2010 08:14 AM, David Joyce wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Tony, The thought occurs to me to wonder why anyone would want a full

 width panel these days?


	


I would actually reverse the question: Why would anyone trade panel

space for a silly picknick tray? 



I can give you a few reasons:

1) Versatility. There are very few (if any?) "we can do it all"-EFIS &

engine management systems which are very good in *everything* they are

supposed to do. With separate instruments, you can simply pick the

instruments that best suit you. For instance, I have a dual electrical

system, is there any glass panel thing that can cope with that and

display two battery monitors? With separate instruments, you don't have

to worry about these things.

If I want to replace an instrument later on, because there is a new and

better system, I can just do so, and am not bound to the EFIS I'm using

(which manufacturer might have gone out of business by then).

2) Reliability. Most solid state gyro systems are simply lying. They

don't display the real attitude, but compute that from a number of

sources and play a nice game of averaging, which seems to work well as

long as you fly VFR. But fly uncoordinated for 15 minutes or so, with

one wing lower than the other, and most of these systems quickly adapt

to it and start to tell that you are actually flying straight and level.

3) Redundancy. Apart from the obvious facts that with these systems you

put all your eggs in one basket, again the attitude indicator is the

main danger. Instead of being an independant instrument, it computes the

attitude from a number of sources, like static pressure for instance.

(Gravity sensors have too much drift, so the instrument calibrates

itself with other sources: "If static pressure increases, we are

descending, so let's display a nose down attitude.")  Now, if you loose

your static port in IMC conditions, with conventional instruments you

loose a few instruments, but the attitude indicator (horizon) can help

you out. Not so with a glass panel, because if the static port is gone,

the horizon is gone too. Same with the pitot.

And of course, if you hit the display in turbulence, you don't loose a

single instrument, but everything you have. I wouldn't dare to fly in

IMC with such a thing.

4) Readability. Steam instruments are easy to read. You get used to a

certain needle position, and even the smallest deviation, or vibration

will attract your attention. With a digital representation the

resolution is often to course. A numerical output is then better, but

numerical outputs are horrible for the brain, consuming much more

resources to interpret, compared to just reading the angle of a needle.

Then of course we all know how easily computers lie to us. If the

display shows some parameter climbing in the red line, it is always a

question whether it is real, or just a sensor or data cable problem,

interference, or whatever.



Here in the Netherlands (and probably a lot of other countries as well)

we are required to have a TSO'd altimeter, airspeed indicator, and a

compass. So, we already need three separate instruments of the standard

six pack, besides the EFIS. Now add a separate gyro instrument to the

stack to partly solve the redundancy problem. Now also add an autopilot

to it, which comes with a turn indicator built in. What are we actually

saving with our EFIS? Just the vertical speed indicator!



I did the math while I was designing my panel, and discovered that with

any EFIS, I would actually add weight (considering my desire for

redundancy), add costs, loose some flexibility, and decided that it is

not worth it.



I also decided that I don't need a picknick tray. My lunch can wait

until I'm done flying. Packages can be put in the bagage bay. The

picknick tray is not the best place to keep loose stuff, and put

anything white or shiny in it and it affects the vision. And then I also

just disliked it. I'm building an airplane, and it should look like an

airplane. 

Keeping the picknick tray would simply mean, even with an EFIS, that I

would have to scramble for panel space and probably trade off a few

desirable features.



Frans

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:27 am Post subject: Full Panel

Frans, I can understand your concerns with regard to EFIS panels, and what

you have

said no doubt was true at the start of efis development, these day most efis

panels

continually cross check solid state gyro information with both GPS and

pressure infomation

to assess the accuracy of the data being received, and the gyros themselves

are now capable

of detecting and correcting drift automatically, and yes most panels can

handle multiple inputs

for almost anything in or on your A/C. FWIW, I did a work out on weights

about a year ago

and the efis panel with two comm radios, Nav radio, Transponder, came in

about 15KG lighter

than a gyro steam gauge setup and a small GPS unit (giving the same basic

functionality on both

panels)



craig



--

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:04 am Post subject: Full Panel

On 03/24/2010 01:25 PM, craig bastin wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Frans, I can understand your concerns with regard to EFIS panels, and what

 you have

 said no doubt was true at the start of efis development, these day most efis

 panels

 continually cross check solid state gyro information with both GPS and

 pressure infomation

 to assess the accuracy of the data being received, and the gyros themselves

 are now capable

 of detecting and correcting drift automatically,


	


This is what I was saying. Take the GPS and pressure information away

from these EFIS panels, and the solid state gyro will go south very soon!

So, just when you need the horizon most (with a clogged pressure system)

it will fail to help you out.



 	  Quote: 	
		   FWIW, I did a work out on weights

 about a year ago

 and the efis panel with two comm radios, Nav radio, Transponder, came in

 about 15KG lighter

 than a gyro steam gauge setup and a small GPS unit (giving the same basic

 functionality on both

 panels)


	


Hmm, all the instruments in my full size panel together weigh less than

15 Kg's. To get to a weight difference of 15Kg you must really do your

best to find the heaviest instruments you can find. For a standard

sixpack, each of the instruments must weigh more than 2,5Kg's! I have

some difficulty to believe that these figures are accurate.



Anyway, I was just clearing up why someone would prefer more panel space

over a picknick tray. It is not my intention to start a EFIS versus

steam war.  Everything is somehow a compromise.



Frans

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: Full Panel

Hi all,

  

 I would like to add my experience.  I find the parcel tray is very little value, at least for the type of flying I have been doing.  The challenge I have with the factory panel is more around internal volume, in particular its depth rather than the external area. 

   

 I had a tough time getting the Apollo GX60 comm/gps and SL70 transponder to fit without hitting the firewall.  Garmin 430's can be tough to fit in as well.

  

 To Frans point, fabricating your own isn't a big task.  I recall Bob Jacobson (no longer a Europa owner) reporting that is "home fabricated" panel weighed 2 lbs less than the factory panel and he didn't use carbon fiber.  He also included internal cooling ducts and a couple of other neat features.

   

 As to weight savings.  When I removed my "6 pack", pump, hoses and regulator I weighted them and they came in at 14 pounds.  My EFIS and backup instruments came in at 6 pounds so I had a net saving of 8 pounds.

   

 My primary instruments are a pair of GRT EFIS with a single AHRS.  These display my engine parameters as well.

  

 My back up's  are 2.25" instruments:

  - Trutrack single axis auto pilot

  - Trutrack ADI

  - Winter ASI

  - Mechanical Altimeter

  - Dual / alternative buss electrical buss

  

 I have about 300 hours on this new panel configuration including quite a bit of IFR time in actual conditions.  I have not had a problem with the EFIS display getting its self confused, however I do keep my back up instruments in my scan, and my auto pilot does not rely on any external system to keep straight and level.

   

 If I was to do this over again.  I would only have a separate autopilot and my primary + back up instruments would be a pair of EFIS with dual AHRS and dual pitot / static systems.  Although it is a bunch of work to make the two separate systems agree, this setup offers a high level of redundancy.

   

 So, I guess this is a long winded way of saying that I would build my own panel, try not to stuff it too full of goodies and that I am fine with "All glass" if sufficient thought is applied to failure & effects analysis.

   

 Cheers,  Paul

  

  

  

  [quote][b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:09 am Post subject: Full Panel

On Mar 24, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Paul McAllister wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    The challenge I have with the factory panel is more around internal  

 volume, in particular its depth rather than the external area.


	


Paul,



I'm wondering if the depth issue is solved by floating the panel on  

those shock-mount studs with the rubber spacer of approx. 3/4",  

removing of course the back of the instrument panel module except in  

the areas where it is reinforced and acts as a flange for the studs?



Fred

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:02 am Post subject: Full Panel

That's exactly what I did, I used 1 1/2 cotton reel rubber mounts to stand off the instrument panel, It gives enough space to fit a Garnin SL30 and GTX327 and Dynon EFIS/EMS with room to spare, (just 

Ivor

G-IVER

---- Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 On Mar 24, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Paul McAllister wrote:

 

 >  The challenge I have with the factory panel is more around internal  

 > volume, in particular its depth rather than the external area.

 

 Paul,

 

 I'm wondering if the depth issue is solved by floating the panel on  

 those shock-mount studs with the rubber spacer of approx. 3/4",  

 removing of course the back of the instrument panel module except in  

 the areas where it is reinforced and acts as a flange for the studs?

 

 Fred

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: Full Panel

Fred, 



Yes I did space mine out from the fire wall by about 20mm and that sure helped, but if I was to do it over again I would make my own panel out of carbon fiber.



Interestingly enough there is not many other things I would do different on the aircraft, fuel system comes to mind but that's about it really.

 

Cheers, Paul

  [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:54 am Post subject: Full Panel

It's perhaps worth saying that I have a GTX328, an SL 30 and a Flydat 

mounted on the right side of the standard factory panel fixed flush to the 

firewall together with prop controller, intercom ,pitch trim & sundry 

contact breakers & warning lights. It was a reasonably tight fit but not one 

only possible with gynaecological skills! Could send picture if any help.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

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