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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:46 am Post subject: Radio mounting

I am in the process of laying out my instrument panel, and have a question

regarding radio mounting.  (2 place side by side IFR airplane)



Is there a standard mounting hole spacing, other dimensioning, for most of

the modern radios?  What is the best type of mounting brackets to put on the

inside of the panel for securing the radios?  Can I predrill the mounting

brackets with a standard hole spacing, or is there not a standard?  Sketches

or drawings (CAD ok) would be helpful.



The radio stack seems to have the most variables.  The other round hole

instruments are pretty standard.



Thanks for your input,



Roger

bgray(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

I'm working from memory here but I recall that the normal radio stack

width is 6.25 inches. The mounting method will vary depending on the

material your panel is made from.  You'll need to fabricate a flange

about 1 inch long/deep. You can make this flange from AL angle or

fiberglass layups, next attach rivet/bond the angle to the back sides of

your panel  radio stack 6.25 inches apart and parallel to each other.

The racks screw into the angle brackets. Some radio shops use clipnuts.

I used screws and nuts.



Bruce

www.Glasair.org 



--

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

On 4/2/2010 11:43 AM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am in the process of laying out my instrument panel, and have a question

 regarding radio mounting.  (2 place side by side IFR airplane)



 Is there a standard mounting hole spacing, other dimensioning, for most of

 the modern radios?  What is the best type of mounting brackets to put on the

 inside of the panel for securing the radios?  Can I predrill the mounting

 brackets with a standard hole spacing, or is there not a standard?  Sketches

 or drawings (CAD ok) would be helpful.



 The radio stack seems to have the most variables.  The other round hole

 instruments are pretty standard.



 Thanks for your input,



 Roger



    

Radio Rax looks like a beautiful system but it is way over priced in my 
	


opinion. I have looked for a small aluminum extrusion in a  "T" slot 

arraignment that would work but no luck. I'll just make angle brackets 

like everyone else I guess and carefully drill the holes. I don't 

believe there is a standard dimension for the tray holes.

Tim Andres

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

At 01:43 PM 4/2/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>



I am in the process of laying out my instrument panel, and have a question

regarding radio mounting.  (2 place side by side IFR airplane)



Is there a standard mounting hole spacing, other dimensioning, for most of

the modern radios?  What is the best type of mounting brackets to put on the

inside of the panel for securing the radios?  Can I predrill the mounting

brackets with a standard hole spacing, or is there not a standard?  Sketches

or drawings (CAD ok) would be helpful.



The radio stack seems to have the most variables.  The other round hole

instruments are pretty standard.


	


    WAaaayyyy back when, I used to write and illustrate field

    installation kits for all the factory offered avionics at

    Cessna. Except for the autopilot control heads, the radio

    mounting rails in the Cessnas were 6-3/8" inches apart.

    The Lear LTRA6 (1958), King KY-90 and Narco VT-1 I have on the

    shelf will fit those widths. Don't know who picked that

    number but thankfully, everyone adopted it. I note that the

    Icom IC-A210 tray is listed at 6-5/16" so it appears that

    the "standard" still holds.



    I don't recall the factory rails being pre-drilled for mounting

    holes. The rails had forward facing webs that would

    accept a clip-nut. It was pretty much a drill-to-match

    for what ever accessory you were installing. I think all

    our 300 and 500 series radios had the same face height

    within the series but if you're mixing/matching radios,

    the heights will be all over the place.



    Bob . . .

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:44 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

I have a friend who bought a Garmin GPS, come to find out it ended up 

being a little wider than the normal stack size.  Surprise, surprise 

as they say.  On his RV it is major surgery to increase the width of 

the stack so he has a nice GPS in his closet.

jerb

At 01:46 PM 4/2/2010, you wrote:

[quote]



I'm working from memory here but I recall that the normal radio stack

width is 6.25 inches. The mounting method will vary depending on the

material your panel is made from.  You'll need to fabricate a flange

about 1 inch long/deep. You can make this flange from AL angle or

fiberglass layups, next attach rivet/bond the angle to the back sides of

your panel  radio stack 6.25 inches apart and parallel to each other.

The racks screw into the angle brackets. Some radio shops use clipnuts.

I used screws and nuts.



Bruce

www.Glasair.org



--

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

Good Afternoon Bruce,

  

 Unfortunately the classic 6.25 width has changed considerably over the  years. 

  

 Even worse than that, it varies even among boxes from the same  manufacturer. The Garmin 430W and 530W list the width of the rack for a "six and  a quarter" unit as 6.320 inches in their very detailed installation manual.  

  

 I used RadioRax mounting rails for my last couple of  installations. The RadioRax company strongly recommends that the support units  be placed precisely 6.300 inches apart. I did it just that way last year using  the very nice RadioRax spacer unit, but the 430W would not fit. I had to remove  the RadioRax rails and mill off another twenty thousands of an inch to get the  rack installed correctly. I recently redid a Bonanza panel and used RadioRax  rails to support the radios. Before I made the installation, I carefully  measured the sleeves for the equipment being installed. The brand new  430W I installed actually measured 6.332 inches so that is how far apart I  placed the rails. The new 327 transponder which is also made by Garmin measured  at least thirty thousandth less and a very old King KX 155 which was to be  reinstalled measured wider than the new 430W.

  

 If you make a good strong and rigid support rail at only a 6.250 width,  many modern and ancient radios will not fit.

  

 I highly recommend the use of RadioRax rails , but do add an  appropriate shim to the installation tool when installing the rails.

  

 6.250 will NOT be wide enough for many common radio sleeves.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove, IL

 Brookeridge Air Park

 Stearman N3977A

  

  In a message dated 4/2/2010 3:48:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  bgray(at)glasair.org writes:

 [quote]-->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"    <bgray(at)glasair.org>



I'm working from memory here but I recall    that the normal radio stack

width is 6.25 inches. The mounting method will    vary depending on the

material your panel is made from.  You'll need    to fabricate a flange

about 1 inch long/deep. You can make this flange from    AL angle or

fiberglass layups, next attach rivet/bond the angle to the back    sides of

your panel  radio stack 6.25 inches apart and parallel to    each other.

The racks screw into the angle brackets. Some radio shops use    clipnuts.

I used screws and nuts.



Bruce

www.Glasair.org    



--

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am in the process of laying out my instrument panel, and have a question

regarding radio mounting.  


	


		Thanks for your responses, guys, It is as I thought, but I

figured I would see if anyone had any "magic" to make the job go easier and

neater.



		Roger

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bgray(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

OK, I had all my radios in their respective racks stacked on to of each other to get the final measurements before I cut the hole for my stack. I taped all the racks together so that the radio bezels were even. Most of the racks required a different setback to even the face of the radios. I then just mounted the taped racks, slid the radios in, every thing matched. The Garmin racks have dimples on the bottom to give proper spacing between radios.  

     

Bruce

 www.Glasair.org   

  

--

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:17 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

At 05:51 PM 4/2/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Good Afternoon Bruce,

  

 Unfortunately the classic 6.25 width has changed considerably over the years. 

  

 Even worse than that, it varies even among boxes from the same manufacturer. The Garmin 430W and 530W list the width of the rack for a "six and a quarter" unit as 6.320 inches in their very detailed installation manual. 

  

 I used RadioRax mounting rails for my last couple of installations. The RadioRax company strongly recommends that the support units be placed precisely 6.300 inches apart. I did it just that way last year using the very nice RadioRax spacer unit, but the 430W would not fit. I had to remove the RadioRax rails and mill off another twenty thousands of an inch to get the rack installed correctly. I recently redid a Bonanza panel and used RadioRax rails to support the radios. Before I made the installation, I carefully measured the sleeves for the equipment being installed. The brand new 430W I installed actually measured 6.332 inches so that is how far apart I placed the rails. The new 327 transponder which is also made by Garmin measured at least thirty thousandth less and a very old King KX 155 which was to be reinstalled measured wider than the new 430W.

  

 If you make a good strong and rigid support rail at only a 6.250 width, many modern and ancient radios will not fit.

  

 I highly recommend the use of RadioRax rails , but do add an appropriate shim to the installation tool when installing the rails.

  

 6.250 will NOT be wide enough for many common radio sleeves. 	


    Not sure it ever was. 6-5/16 is the legacy radio

    width with probably plus or minus 1/32 (typical

    aircraft sheet metal tolerances). The trays

    are sheet metal and will tolerate being pulled

    to the mounting rails by the attach hardware.



    I just checked the Garmin manuals I have an

    they all called out 6.32" outside dimension

    on the tray and 6.25 for the chassis width

    that slips into the tray.



    I think folks will find that anyone who's been

    the aircraft radio business very long has

    discovered that their retrofit market will

    greatest when they can mount in legacy openings

    which were 6.38" wide for as far back as I can

    recall.



    Bob . . .    [quote][b]

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

I was under the impression the 6.25" width was a standard for general aviation small plane avionics.  

 What has happened here, by what I read here you now have to start cutting up instrument panels to install new product.  Bad deal - if we buy it, we are endorsing it.  Maybe making builders more aware might influence what happening in selection of products.  If their going to increase the mounting width requirement, it should be across the board, everyone do the same.  Can you visualize the hatchet and butcher jobs being done on the existing GA aircraft fleet to accommodate these companies product just because they do not want to conform.  Well I guess the way things are going it will not matter in the next couple years.    

 jerb



 At 03:51 PM 4/2/2010, you wrote:

 [quote]Good Afternoon Bruce,

  

 Unfortunately the classic 6.25 width has changed considerably over the years. 

  

 Even worse than that, it varies even among boxes from the same manufacturer. The Garmin 430W and 530W list the width of the rack for a "six and a quarter" unit as 6.320 inches in their very detailed installation manual. 

  

 I used RadioRax mounting rails for my last couple of installations. The RadioRax company strongly recommends that the support units be placed precisely 6.300 inches apart. I did it just that way last year using the very nice RadioRax spacer unit, but the 430W would not fit. I had to remove the RadioRax rails and mill off another twenty thousands of an inch to get the rack installed correctly. I recently redid a Bonanza panel and used RadioRax rails to support the radios. Before I made the installation, I carefully measured the sleeves for the equipment being installed. The brand new 430W I installed actually measured 6.332 inches so that is how far apart I placed the rails. The new 327 transponder which is also made by Garmin measured at least thirty thousandth less and a very old King KX 155 which was to be reinstalled measured wider than the new 430W.

  

 If you make a good strong and rigid support rail at only a 6.250 width, many modern and ancient radios will not fit.

  

 I highly recommend the use of RadioRax rails , but do add an appropriate shim to the installation tool when installing the rails.

  

 6.250 will NOT be wide enough for many common radio sleeves.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove, IL

 Brookeridge Air Park

 Stearman N3977A

  

 In a message dated 4/2/2010 3:48:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bgray(at)glasair.org writes:

   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <bgray(at)glasair.org>



  I'm working from memory here but I recall that the normal radio stack

  width is 6.25 inches. The mounting method will vary depending on the

  material your panel is made from.  You'll need to fabricate a flange

  about 1 inch long/deep. You can make this flange from AL angle or

  fiberglass layups, next attach rivet/bond the angle to the back sides of

  your panel  radio stack 6.25 inches apart and parallel to each other.

  The racks screw into the angle brackets. Some radio shops use clipnuts.

  I used screws and nuts.



  Bruce

  www.Glasair.org  



  --

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:39 am Post subject: Radio mounting

At 12:20 AM 4/3/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I was under the impression the 6.25" width was a standard for 

general aviation small plane avionics.

What has happened here, by what I read here you now have to start 

cutting up instrument panels to install new product.  Bad deal - if 

we buy it, we are endorsing it.  Maybe making builders more aware 

might influence what happening in selection of products.


	


   I think I've identified a potential source of confusion.

   Check out these excerpts from various radion installation

   manuals . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Panel_Layout/



   The 6.25" width seems to apply if your tray is totally

   behind the panel and only the radio chassis is expected

   to be a slip fit in the panel opening. However, if

   your tray is flush to the front surface of the

   panel, then the opening needs to be larger.



   At Cessna, the trays were flush mounted between

   rails with clip-nuts on the rails. So a nominally

   6.31" tray + two clip nut thicknesses came to

   the 6.38" dimension I recalled from my kit writing

   days.



   I think the radio widths are more 'standard' than

   the anecdotal data points in this thread suggests.

   Check the installation manuals with particular

   attention to how the tray mounts.



   Bottom line is that the WIDTH for aircraft radios

   and their trays has been pretty standard for

   many moons.



   Bob . . .

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:48 am Post subject: Radio mounting

Good Afternoon 'Lectric Bob,

  

 Yours is a good point that the width required is quite a bit different if  you wish to be able to extract the sleeve through the panel. If all you want to  be able to come out that way is the radio unit itself, 6.250 will hide the  mounting rack. If the units are mounted such that the rack can be inserted and  removed from the cockpit side of the panel, the hole in the panel will need  to be as wide as the support struts are apart and those edges may be visible  after the radios are installed.

  

 I think we should define what we mean by "pretty standard". I recently did  some very careful measurements and found variances as great as sixty thousandths  of an inch. Looking in the current install manuals from Garmin for new boxes, I  see they have NOT settled on a standard that will apply to all of their  products. I have found no boxes that were narrower than 6.25 but a lot of both  old and new boxes that are well wider than 6.35. Your 6.375 is certainly a  conservative number, but it may require washers or other spacers to prevent  bending the case more than one would like to do when the narrower offerings are  installed.

  

 The main point that I think should be made is that it is important to  measure the actual boxes being used and engineer the supports based on those  measurements.  It would be a good idea to allow space for bigger boxes if a  change is ever to be made.

  

 I have used the RadioRax system in the last three panels I have built. One  nice feature is that for certificated airplanes, no back of the rack support of  the radio is needed when they are installed in accordance with the  RadioRax STC. As I said earlier, if you make them 6.375 inches apart and  fail to add spacers, it will deform the smaller offerings. In addition, support  may be needed on the hidden end of the rack.

  

 As Always, It All Depends! <G>

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Brookeridge Air Park

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 Stearman N3977A

  

  In a message dated 4/3/2010 9:40:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"    <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>



At 12:20 AM 4/3/2010, you    wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I was under the impression the 6.25" width was a standard for    

general aviation small plane avionics.

What has happened here,    by what I read here you now have to start 

cutting up instrument panels    to install new product.  Bad deal - if 

we buy it, we are    endorsing it.  Maybe making builders more aware 

might influence    what happening in selection of products.


	


   I think I've    identified a potential source of confusion.

   Check out these    excerpts from various radion installation

   manuals . .    .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Panel_Layout/



      The 6.25" width seems to apply if your tray is totally

   behind    the panel and only the radio chassis is expected

   to be a slip    fit in the panel opening. However, if

   your tray is flush to    the front surface of the

   panel, then the opening needs to be    larger.



   At Cessna, the trays were flush mounted    between

   rails with clip-nuts on the rails. So a    nominally

   6.31" tray + two clip nut thicknesses came    to

   the 6.38" dimension I recalled from my kit    writing

   days.



   I think the radio widths are    more 'standard' than

   the anecdotal data points in this thread    suggests.

   Check the installation manuals with    particular

   attention to how the tray    mounts.



   Bottom line is that the WIDTH for aircraft    radios

   and their trays has been pretty standard    for

   many moons.



   Bob . .    .

	


  [quote][b]

Bill Schlatterer

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:20 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

Pix worth a thousand   This is a 430W tray and a SL40 Tray from Garmin.

Definitely not the same size but I think I remember the SL40 is slightly

smaller than the 430 as I had to add shims and the 430w tray was 6.25.  6.38

would have been a little better as mine is snub.  Note that Garmin didn't

design the SL40 and SL30, those came with the Apollo acquisition as I

remember which probably accounts for the difference in tray sizes.



Bill S

7a just weeks away 



--

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jc-matronics_aeroelectric
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: Radio mounting

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_E3nI7J8M6Iw/S51_ptBMY7I/AAAAAAAAAsI/GKgzSIQV4jk/s800/IMG_0180.JPG



I discovered this very same thing between an GTX-327, SL-30, and 

GMA-240. I was surprised when the Al strips I was using to mock things 

up bent wide. It turns out the transponder and audio panel are about the 

same width. The SL-30 was narrower. Go figure. I ended up adding some 

thin washers (AN960-6L, i think) washers as shims for the SL-30.



http://lh5.ggpht.com/_E3nI7J8M6Iw/S7FQD00QWnI/AAAAAAAAA00/5M3r8fpRx3E/s800/IMG_0195.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_E3nI7J8M6Iw/S6uYQIP_1LI/AAAAAAAAAzM/4wXobq_U904/s800/IMG_0192.JPG



The above are some pictures of how I mounted my 3 items. All this is 

completely new to me, so I have no idea if this is right or wrong. Also, 

in my setup, to get the flush fit I wanted, the racks extend into my 

panel cutout a bit. The install manuals have plenty of warnings about 

making sure the connectors get seated properly.



Jae

RV-10



Bill Schlatterer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Pix worth a thousand   This is a 430W tray and a SL40 Tray from Garmin.

 Definitely not the same size but I think I remember the SL40 is slightly

 smaller than the 430 as I had to add shims and the 430w tray was 6.25.  6.38

 would have been a little better as mine is snub.  Note that Garmin didn't

 design the SL40 and SL30, those came with the Apollo acquisition as I

 remember which probably accounts for the difference in tray sizes.



 Bill S

 7a just weeks away

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