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Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

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billlang(at)live.com.au
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:33 am Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

 

  To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 	  Quote: 	
		  Technical advice needed ref starter. I have just purchesed a Yak52 that has apparently had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem ofthe air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns backwards. Would it be possible to install the starter spider 180 out? My mechanic and I would appreciate if anyone has faced this problem and found a fix. Is there a mark on the spider or foolproof way of installing the spider that was overlooked by the original mechanics Taa  Billhad a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
1 		 	   		  Looking for a hot date? View photos of singles in your area!  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

MOST LIKELY:  Your air distributor is out of alignment.  



This is a tedious and exacting job.  VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! 



There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that

has to be JUST right.  



I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he has

the procedure written out and ready to send.  It is addressed in the

maint. Cards for the engine.  It might also be at George Coy's web site.

His site is also a wealth of knowledge.  



It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees, SAD

TO SAY!  Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with this

thing for days.  DAYS!   



Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to make

the piston move.  When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts air into

one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to the lower

cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil that is in

there right out the exhaust.  But it has to be timed PERFECTLY to the

engine, just like the ignition distributor on your car, or the mag on

your airplane.  Please excuse the language on the net, but it is a real

SOB to adjust.  



I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you, or have them

memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing with it

until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand them

perfectly. 



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

rick(at)rvairshows.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:21 am Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

Make sure your shower of sparks unit (booster coil) is working. There may be a spot that it is arcing inside the left mag cover. There may be a loose wire in the connection to the mag. The air leak through the exhaust could be a coincidental weak cylinder . Check this out before spending money.

Rick Volker

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:42 am Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

Shower of Sparks is needed to start the engine normally.  Shower of

sparks is not needed to make the engine spin during starting.  



If you think you might have ANY kind if ignition problem versus an air

distributor problem, do this: 



Leave your engine master off.  Don't touch any starter buttons.  



Push down on the manual lever on your air start valve. On a 52 it is

down by your foot.  I think it is the left foot, but I own a 50 and not

a 52, so I am going by memory there and might be wrong.  Anyway, it's in

the cockpit down by ONE of your feet (smile).  



If the engine still does not rotate properly as it should for starting,

you have an air issue.  



If it is an air issue, it is PROBABLY the air distributor, but it also

could be a restriction in the air line due to any number of things.  



If you want to eliminate THAT possible source of problem, then simply

hook a 700 psi air source to the line going to the air distributor.

Turn it on.  If the engine STILL fails to turn properly and you know

your engine has good compression in all cylinders, then you are 99.99%

sure it is an Air Distributor problem.  Proceed to adjust it by listed

specifications.  

Mark Bitterlich

 



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

It's by your left foot and you have to reach a ways to get to it in the 52

since it is on the left side of the firewall next to the nose wheel

actuator. Better to someone in the cockpit and someone reaching through the

right front fuselage inspection panel tripping the airstart switch. Some

airstart solenoids were made without the toggle switch on them. The CJ is

that way. 

Now if you are in the 50, it is a reach from the cockpit to the airstart

valve on the firewall. But Mark has long legs I hear!

:^))

Doc



--

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:27 am Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

Well above your left foot, and a pain in the arse to remove and replace.

On Apr 8, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote] 

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 Shower of Sparks is needed to start the engine normally.  Shower of

 sparks is not needed to make the engine spin during starting.



 If you think you might have ANY kind if ignition problem versus an air

 distributor problem, do this:



 Leave your engine master off.  Don't touch any starter buttons.



 Push down on the manual lever on your air start valve. On a 52 it is

 down by your foot.  I think it is the left foot, but I own a 50 and  

 not

 a 52, so I am going by memory there and might be wrong.  Anyway,  

 it's in

 the cockpit down by ONE of your feet (smile).



 If the engine still does not rotate properly as it should for  

 starting,

 you have an air issue.



 If it is an air issue, it is PROBABLY the air distributor, but it also

 could be a restriction in the air line due to any number of things.



 If you want to eliminate THAT possible source of problem, then simply

 hook a 700 psi air source to the line going to the air distributor.

 Turn it on.  If the engine STILL fails to turn properly and you know

 your engine has good compression in all cylinders, then you are 99.99%

 sure it is an Air Distributor problem.  Proceed to adjust it by listed

 specifications.

 Mark Bitterlich

 --

gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

Sound like timing of the air-start distributor is slightly off and adding air too late near the bottom of the power stroke when the exhaust valve begins to open.  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang

 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 3:30 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?  

  

  

   



        

  

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com   	  Quote: 	
		  Technical advice needed ref starter. I have just purchesed a Yak52 that has apparently had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem ofthe air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns backwards. Would it be possible to install the starter spider 180 out? My mechanic and I would appreciate if anyone has faced this problem and found a fix. Is there a mark on the spider or foolproof way of installing the spider that was overlooked by the original mechanics Taa  Billhad a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
1  

       

  

Looking for a hot date? View photos of singles in your area!    	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. It seems that there is a sequencing problem of 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  the air going into the cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to blow straight 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns backwards. Would it be possible to install the starter 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns backwards. Would it be possible to install the starter 	
1

       [quote][b]

billlang(at)live.com.au
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:44 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

Mark

  

 Thank you

  

 This is what I suspected. The engine is newish, and starts first manual pull. I don't believe there are any internal engine issues.

 The original installers probably rushed the job. I will contact those you mentioned. Being new at this, are you able to fwd off list George and Dennis's links

  

 Thanks again.

  

 Bill

  

 

 

[quote] Subject: RE: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400

 From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 

 

 

 MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment. 

 

 This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! 

 

 There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that

 has to be JUST right. 

 

 I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he has

 the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the

 maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web site.

 His site is also a wealth of knowledge. 

 

 It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees, SAD

 TO SAY! Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with this

 thing for days. DAYS! 

 

 Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to make

 the piston move. When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts air into

 one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to the lower

 cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil that is in

 there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed PERFECTLY to the

 engine, just like the ignition distributor on your car, or the mag on

 your airplane. Please excuse the language on the net, but it is a real

 SOB to adjust. 

 

 I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you, or have them

 memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing with it

 until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand them

 perfectly. 

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

billlang(at)live.com.au
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:12 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

Mark

 Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manual, task card 204. Hope my guy 

 can do it.

  

 Thanks 

 Bill

 

[quote] Subject: RE: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400

 From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 

 

 

 MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment. 

 

 This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! 

 

 There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that

 has to be JUST right. 

 

 I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he has

 the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the

 maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web site.

 His site is also a wealth of knowledge. 

 

 It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees, SAD

 TO SAY! Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with this

 thing for days. DAYS! 

 

 Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to make

 the piston move. When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts air into

 one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to the lower

 cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil that is in

 there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed PERFECTLY to the

 engine, just like the ignition distributor on your car, or the mag on

 your airplane. Please excuse the language on the net, but it is a real

 SOB to adjust. 

 

 I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you, or have them

 memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing with it

 until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand them

 perfectly. 

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

GOOD FOR YOU!   Good job in finding the proper task cards!  

  

 Let me run my mouth one last time.  First, adjusting this thing is a real pain in the ass.  It is hard to get to the nuts and stuff to remove it, it requires you to get the engine set up perfectly, and then insert the thing back in and tighten it down.  I have been involved in adjusting it twice, and it was a real ass kicker.  

  

 Next... make darn sure... let me correct that: MAKE DAMN SURE that you know this is the problem before you remove it from the engine and start trying to re-adjust it.  Once you remove it, you have no choice but to finish the job.  

  

 I am not kidding when I tell you that a flow restriction in the air system will cause the exact same problem that you are reporting.  

  

 Yes,  it is most likely that someone messed with this in the past, and just could never get it right again, and this is what you have wrong now.  (I.E. A misadjusted Air Distributor) The odds are good that this is your problem, but as a Tech Rep, my mind always considers the alternatives and you can never rule out ANYTHING unless you verify it as a "known good".  That said, if your AIR FLOW to this unit is low, it will do the exact same thing you are now reporting.  

  

 That said, if I was there, I would take my nitrogen bottle with a good regulator and would connect it DIRECTLY to the line going to the air distributor and would set it to 730 PSI and would see what happened when I turned it on.  If the engine does the exact same thing, then you are sure that the distributor is the problem.  However, if the engine spins right around perfectly, then you can STOP RIGHT THERE and say "BOY OH BOY IT IS NOT THE AIR DISTRIBUTOR" and you have saved yourself one HUGE amount of work.  

  

 Consider this advice carefully.  

  

 Best regards, 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



--- On Thu, 4/8/10, Bill Lang <billlang(at)live.com.au> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Bill Lang <billlang(at)live.com.au>

Subject: RE: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

To: "Yak List" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:12 PM



   Mark

Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manual, task card 204. Hope my guy 

can do it.

 

Thanks 

Bill

 

[quote] Subject: RE: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400

 From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 

 

 

 MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment. 

 

 This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! 

 

 There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that

 has to be JUST right. 

 

 I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he has

 the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the

  maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web site.

 His site is also a wealth of knowledge. 

 

 It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees, SAD

 TO SAY! Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with this

 thing for days. DAYS! 

 

 Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to make

 the piston move. When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts air into

 one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to the lower

 cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil that is in

 there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed PERFECTLY to the

 engine, just like the ignition distributor on your car, or the mag on

 your airplane. Please excuse the language on the net, but it is a real

 SOB to adjust. 

 

 I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to  give you, or have them

 memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing with it

 until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand them

 perfectly. 

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

If you have access to a Housai manual, it provides better instructions as it has a diagram.  The difference relates to prop gearing.  I have reset mine twice after engine disassembly and it’s not a big deal.  

Gill   

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:50 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?  

GOOD FOR YOU!   Good job in finding the proper   task cards!     

Let me run my mouth one last time.  First, adjusting   this thing is a real pain in the ass.  It is hard to get to the   nuts and stuff to remove it, it requires you to get the engine set up   perfectly, and then insert the thing back in and tighten it down.    I have been involved in adjusting it twice, and it was a real ass   kicker.     

Next... make darn sure... let me correct that: MAKE DAMN   SURE that you know this is the problem before you remove it from the engine   and start trying to re-adjust it.  Once you remove it, you have no   choice but to finish the job.     

I am not kidding when I tell you that a flow restriction   in the air system will cause the exact same problem that you are   reporting.     

Yes,  it is most likely that someone messed with this   in the past, and just could never get it right again, and this is what you   have wrong now.  (I.E. A misadjusted Air Distributor) The odds are good   that this is your problem, but as a Tech Rep, my mind always considers the   alternatives and you can never rule out ANYTHING unless you verify it as a   "known good".  That said, if your AIR FLOW to this unit is low,   it will do the exact same thing you are now reporting.     

That said, if I was there, I would take my nitrogen bottle   with a good regulator and would connect it DIRECTLY to the line going to the   air distributor and would set it to 730 PSI and would see what happened when   I turned it on.  If the engine does the exact same thing, then you are   sure that the distributor is the problem.  However, if the engine spins   right around perfectly, then you can STOP RIGHT THERE and say "BOY OH   BOY IT IS NOT THE AIR DISTRIBUTOR" and you have saved yourself one HUGE   amount of work.     

Consider this advice carefully.     

Best regards,    

Mark Bitterlich   

   --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Bill Lang <billlang(at)live.com.au>   wrote:   

   [quote]   

   From: Bill Lang <billlang(at)live.com.au>

   Subject: RE: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

   To: "Yak List" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

   Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:12 PM      

Mark

   Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manual,   task card 204. Hope my guy 

   can do it.

   Thanks 

   Bill

   > Subject: RE: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?

   > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400

   > From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil

   > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

   > 

   > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det   Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

   > 

   > 

   > 

   > MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment. 

   > 

   > This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! 

   > 

   > There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that

   > has to be JUST right. 

   > 

   > I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he has

   > the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the

   > maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web site.

   > His site is also a wealth of knowledge. 

   > 

   > It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees, SAD

   > TO SAY! Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with this

   > thing for days. DAYS! 

   > 

   > Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to make

   > the piston move. When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts air into

   > one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to the lower

   > cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil that is in

   > there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed PERFECTLY to the

   > engine, just like the ignition distributor on your car, or the mag on

   > your airplane. Please excuse the language on the net, but it is a real

   > SOB to adjust. 

   > 

   > I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you, or have them

   > memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing with it

   > until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand them

   > perfectly. 

   > 

   > Mark Bitterlich

   > 

   > 

   > --

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