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Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582
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rawheels



Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

How many people have had issues with the mikuni pulse/vacuum fuel pumps not having enough power to pull fuel from the header tank at full RPM? And, do a lot of people have an electric pump for take-off/back-up purposes?

I've been trying to diagnose a fuel flow problem; My engine would stumble after a few moments when at full RPM, but seemed fine at other settings. I have found out that the fuel pump will work fine if you have a gas can plugged in close to the engine, but it just doesn't have quite enough power to pull fuel all the way from the header tank (at) above 6000 RPM. I tried temporarily installing an electric fuel pump, and the engine worked great. The mikuni pump is fairly new, but I understand it could be the culprit. However, it is a good distance to the header tank, so other than the extra safety, it seems like an electric pump may be warranted to help the vacuum style.


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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:24 pm    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Should be not an issue.

make sure you got the correct impulse line for fuel pump and it secured
tightly and WITHOUT gear clamps.

Tie down run wide open for 3 mins after doing and fuel system testing.
---


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:34 pm    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Mike, it sounds like you have a "too soft" pulse line, too long, or maybe a
little of both. I believe that it should be no longer than 12" and be made
of a material that won't expand and absorb the pulses. Rubber fuel
injection hose works pretty well. Are you running a 582? If so, the Mikuni
should pump adequately if the pulses are getting to the pump.
Deke
Quote:


How many people have had issues with the mikuni pulse/vacuum fuel pumps
not having enough power to pull fuel from the header tank at full RPM?
And, do a lot of people have an electric pump for take-off/back-up
purposes?

I've been trying to diagnose a fuel flow problem; My engine would stumble
after a few moments when at full RPM, but seemed fine at other settings.
I have found out that the fuel pump will work fine if you have a gas can
plugged in close to the engine, but it just doesn't have quite enough
power to pull fuel all the way from the header tank (at) above 6000 RPM. I
tried temporarily installing an electric fuel pump, and the engine worked
great. The mikuni pump is fairly new, but I understand it could be the
culprit. However, it is a good distance to the header tank, so other than
the extra safety, it seems like an electric pump may be warranted to help
the vacuum style.

--------
Ryan Wheeler
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN


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Guy Buchanan



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

At 03:43 PM 4/11/2010, you wrote:
Quote:
How many people have had issues with the mikuni pulse/vacuum fuel pumps not having enough power to pull fuel from the header tank at full RPM? And, do a lot of people have an electric pump for take-off/back-up purposes?

Ryan,
I have a 582 in a IV with the plastic header tank low behind the passenger seat. I get about 12 gph flow at the pump inlet (at the height of the carbs) with about 2 gallons in the wing tanks and the mains on 10" auto repair ramps. (Conventional gear.) I have 3/8" aluminum lines to the firewall with the exception of 12" x 3/8" flex coming out of the wing tanks. I use a very large high-flow auto-race filter after the header tank. Forward of the firewall I use the 1/4" blue tube. Check the following:
  • Flow rate at the pump inlet. It ought to be at least 6 gph with fuel in the wings and the mains on blocks. (Takeoff attitude.) If your flow rate is inadequate there could be a host of problems, all covered in the archives.
  • Weak pulse line. My pulse line is the clear 1/8" wall stuff which USED to be sold by CPS. Last time I ordered some they sent thin wall (3/32") tubing so I don't think they carry the thick wall any more.
  • Long pulse line. (I think Rotax gives a spec. of 12" for this. I think mine is about 14".)
  • Plugged, missing, or too large vent in the pump inlet side. This vent is required if the pump is mounted vertical or below the case pulse outlet. It prevents fuel/oil accumulation on the pulse side of the pump which will diminish the pump's effectiveness. Ideally the pump is mounted "face up" above the case pulse outlet so stuff drains readily back into the engine. My pump has a very small (.02"?) hole in the brass pulse inlet elbow. Some vertically mounted pumps have very small holes in the case at the bottom of the pulse cavity. (If so you must be careful that your pump is not mounted "upside-down" with the tiny hole at the top.) My pump is mounted vertically at about the height of the carbs, above the case pulse outlet. If fluid fills the pump pulse cavity it will become hydraulic with lots of resistance. If the drain hole is too large then your pulse will be lost out the hole and pumping action will be compromised. (Maybe someone with a pump off their bird can tell you the exact hole diameter. Mine's inaccessible.)
  • Wrong main jets. If you have a choke you can open it slightly at full RPM to see what happens. If your RPM increases you're too lean. If the engine dogs you're too rich.
  • Weak spark at high RPM. Try a mag check at full throttle and see if you notice a huge RPM drop.
That's all I can think of for now. It should keep you busy for a few minutes. Wink


Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting [quote][b]


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

On mine I used that firm, clear urethane hose that is sold as pulse
line. It's a real pain to get to the barb on the engine so I used a
spring clamp that you can open by squeezing with a pair of needle nose
pliers. At the fuel pump end I secured it using a double loop of safety
wire. The line goes from the engine *up* to the fuel pump on the
firewall and is fairly short.

FWIW,

Mark Napier
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Time: 04:24:05 PM PST US
From: "Dave Fisher" <dave(at)cfisher.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582
Should be not an issue.

make sure you got the correct impulse line for fuel pump and it secured
tightly and WITHOUT gear clamps.

Tie down run wide open for 3 mins after doing and fuel system testing.
---


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rawheels



Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Thanks for the ideas, here are some updates:

- I had tried replacing the pulse line already. Ordered new from LEAF or ACS (can't remember which).
- Not sure where you (Dave) are talking about for the gear clamps; The assembly itself is mounted to a bracket on the firewall, but it does have gear clamps around the tubing at the fittings. Seems like the fittings would create the seal there and not the clamp, but I'd like more information.
- I'm not sure about the length of the pulse line. I imagine that the pump is mounted in the same spot that is has been for the last 15 years, but I'll see if I installed it with any additional "service" length.
- The pump vent is clean. The pump itself is mounted vertically so the vent hole in the brass fitting is not necessarily pointing straight down. I'd love to see some examples of other mounting arrangements. High resistance does sound like a possibility, again though the pump is probably located in the same spot as it has since aircraft creation unless it is 180 deg out.
- I do not have a fuel flow meter installed. I was making an assumption that since the electric pump "fixed" the symptom, that it was more of a delivery issue than a carb/mixture issue. Incorrect?

If the pump is getting weak, is that an indication of a failing pump, or are they more of a catastrophic failure item? How about the portion of the engine providing the vacuum? If catastrophic, what back-up systems are you using?


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Guy Buchanan



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
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Location: Ramona, CA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

At 11:11 AM 4/12/2010, you wrote:
Quote:
If the pump is getting weak, is that an indication of a failing
pump, or are they more of a catastrophic failure item? How about
the portion of the engine providing the vacuum? If catastrophic,
what back-up systems are you using?

The pump can definitely get weak, as well as fail catastrophically.
It's just a diaphragm with check valves. The checks can leak, the
diaphragm can leak, you could get foreign substances inside, all
sorts of things. You do rebuild the pump regularly, right? I do mine
yearly. And make sure you get Mikuni parts, not the crap CPS sells.
The after-market gaskets weep fuel copiously.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting


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akflyer



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Maybe I got lucky, 150+ hrs on the CPS pump rebuild kit and no problems. Now where the heck is a good piece of wood to knock on when you need one...

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rawheels



Joined: 09 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

A yearly rebuild sounded a bit much, but after doing some googling and asking others on field it sounds like most people either rebuild their pumps annualy/biannually, or they have two pumps just to swap when necessary. In fact Mike Stratman (CPS) recommends an inspection at 150 hr, and an overhaul at least every 2 years (http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part%2053.PDF).

Seems like a really important piece of equipment to be such a weak link. I'll order my rebuild kit tonight and see how it goes. Probably really consider adding an electric back-up too.


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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:54 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

You should be static fuel flow in level flight and even climb at at least 30 litres per hour without a fuel pump at all.

Rebuild kit a great idea every few years. I would make sure you get Mikuni kit and not the cheap ones.

866-418-4164 toll free.


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Guy Buchanan



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

At 08:30 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote:
Quote:
Seems like a really important piece of equipment to be such a weak
link. I'll order my rebuild kit tonight and see how it
goes. Probably really consider adding an electric back-up too.

Ryan,
I do the yearly rebuild because I don't have a back-up fuel
pump. (My back-up is gravity feed, which is entirely hypothetical
since I've never tried it.) I rebuild on the theory that the pump
involves fatigue inducing behavior in the diaphragm and check valves
and therefore will wear out at some point. However I'm willing to bet
the real MTBF is probably something like years. Very Happy
Interestingly there have been a series of articles in the
recent EAA magazines that debunk my methodology and show that the
riskiest time for flight hardware is just after a rebuild or
maintenance. The author recommends that instead of replacement or
rebuild you rely on non-destructive component testing to identify
degradation prior to failure. To do this for a fuel pump would
require some kind of performance test, or better yet a reliable and
accurate fuel pressure meter on which you could see any degradation.
Of course, then you have to have some kind of test for the pressure meter. . .
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting


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VIXEN



Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:25 am    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Hello Guy

I have a Vixen c/w 912 and am considering a electric backup pump. Do you have any suggestions on make & model and best way to plumb it in. Or am I just being overly cautious because there is certainly adequate gravity flow unless the tanks are very low and the climb angle excessive.
Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Don

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com (bnn(at)nethere.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com (bnn(at)nethere.com)>

At 08:30 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote:
Quote:
Seems like a really important piece of equipment to be such a weak link.  I'll order my rebuild kit tonight and see how it goes.  Probably really consider adding an electric back-up too.

Ryan,
       I do the yearly rebuild because I don't have a back-up fuel pump. (My back-up is gravity feed, which is entirely hypothetical since I've never tried it.) I rebuild on the theory that the pump involves fatigue inducing behavior in the diaphragm and check valves and therefore will wear out at some point. However I'm willing to bet the real MTBF is probably something like years. Very Happy
       Interestingly there have been a series of articles in the recent EAA magazines that debunk my methodology and show that the riskiest time for flight hardware is just after a rebuild or maintenance. The author recommends that instead of replacement or rebuild you rely on non-destructive component testing to identify degradation prior to failure. To do this for a fuel pump would require some kind of performance test, or better yet a reliable and accurate fuel pressure meter on which you could see any degradation. Of course, then you have to have some kind of test for the pressure meter. . .


Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

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rawheels



Joined: 09 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Don,

I'm by no means an expert (especially since I asked the original question on this thread), but it seems that through all my web searching and forum asking on this topic that the Facet Solid-State Fuel Pumps are by far the most common used for back-up purposes; 2.5-4.5 PSI pump for the 503/582 & the 4-6 PSI version for the 912 (Although some debate exists on the second because of a 5.8 PSI limit listed in the 912 manual).

Please take a moment and read the last few paragraphs of the article I linked earlier in this thread from CPS. It explains some of the installation ideas for a redundant system without going through all of the specifics/opinions on the web.


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Guy Buchanan



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
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Location: Ramona, CA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

At 09:20 AM 4/14/2010, you wrote:
Quote:
I have a Vixen c/w 912 and am considering a electric backup pump. Do
you have any suggestions on make & model and best way to plumb it
in. Or am I just being overly cautious because there is certainly
adequate gravity flow unless the tanks are very low and the climb
angle excessive.

Don,
I run a 582, but from what I've seen most 912 drivers run a
Facet electric as a backup. I don't know if the 912 is less reliable,
or if 912 drivers simply are more "big airplane" but I don't know of
any that rely exclusively on the engine driven pump. It would be
interesting to know how many 912 fuel pumps have failed. I also don't
know if the 912 fuel pump will allow gravity feed after failure. It
would be cool to find a very-low-loss check valve (one that has no
springs and checks under pressure only) that would allow a gravity
bypass of the fuel pump.
I've seen electric backups installed in series and parallel.
Both have been discussed heavily in the past and you can find a lot
of information in the archives.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Your climb would have to be VERY excessive....something us Jabiru-
powered fliers don't have to worry about. : ) But the real problem
is when you fly with minimal fuel (ask how I know) and then descend
long and steeply.....unless your Kitfox has front ports as well as
rear, in the tanks.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 910.3 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
Countdown to 1000 hrs~89.7 to go(101 days to go)
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Apr 14, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Don Hudgeon wrote:

Quote:
Hello Guy

I have a Vixen c/w 912 and am considering a electric backup pump.
Do you have any suggestions on make & model and best way to plumb
it in. Or am I just being overly cautious because there is
certainly adequate gravity flow unless the tanks are very low and
the climb angle excessive.
Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Don



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

I put 906 hours on my first 912 powered Model IV. I had a Facet back-up
that my test pilot suggested be used on initial climb. I did that for a
while, then discontinued the practice. The switch, however was just to the
right of the throttle knob and I could hit it with my thumb without moving
my hand if I thought I needed it. Never had a failure of the engine pump,
nor any symptoms suggesting any problems. I did use the pump once, as
Guy/EAA suggests. It was right after changing out the fuel lines in the
engine compartment and I had cinched the fire sleeve too tight and it
restricted fuel flow through the tube. That was an exciting day as I found
how to make the dreaded 180 back to the runway.

Lowell
Model IV-912 UL build
engine install

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:31 AM
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582

Quote:


At 09:20 AM 4/14/2010, you wrote:
>I have a Vixen c/w 912 and am considering a electric backup pump. Do you
>have any suggestions on make & model and best way to plumb it in. Or am I
>just being overly cautious because there is certainly adequate gravity
>flow unless the tanks are very low and the climb angle excessive.

Don,
I run a 582, but from what I've seen most 912 drivers run a Facet
electric as a backup. I don't know if the 912 is less reliable, or if 912
drivers simply are more "big airplane" but I don't know of any that rely
exclusively on the engine driven pump. It would be interesting to know how
many 912 fuel pumps have failed. I also don't know if the 912 fuel pump
will allow gravity feed after failure. It would be cool to find a
very-low-loss check valve (one that has no springs and checks under
pressure only) that would allow a gravity bypass of the fuel pump.
I've seen electric backups installed in series and parallel. Both
have been discussed heavily in the past and you can find a lot of
information in the archives.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting




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VIXEN



Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Thanks every one for the quick replies. If I decide to go the "electric backup" route it seems that Facet has a good variety so as not to exceed the carb float pressures. Gravity flow should be OK except for extreme low fuel climb and/or decent. In the meantime I think it best to just maintain good fuel levels!!  Thanks again.
Don

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:19 AM, rawheels <rawheels(at)yahoo.com (rawheels(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "rawheels" <rawheels(at)yahoo.com (rawheels(at)yahoo.com)>

Don,

I'm by no means an expert (especially since I asked the original question on this thread), but it seems that through all my web searching and forum asking on this topic that the Facet Solid-State Fuel Pumps are by far the most common used for back-up purposes; 2.5-4.5 PSI pump for the 503/582 & the 4-6 PSI version for the 912 (Although some debate exists on the second because of a 5.8 PSI limit listed in the 912 manual).

Please take a moment and read the last few paragraphs of the article I linked earlier in this thread from CPS.  It explains some of the installation ideas for a redundant system without going through all of the specifics/opinions on the web.




Read this topic online here:

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akflyer



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

I was of the opinion that an electric back up pump was overkill... but my plane had one on it install by the original builder so I left it on. It has saved me twice when the fuel filter started to plug off. Between the mechanical and electric pump I was able to maintain fuel flow till I could get back to the lake. I was flying in cruise and burned about 5.6 GPH, I was flying along straight and level and noticed I was only flowing 3.9 GPH. I hit the electric pump and flow went back to normal. After landing and pulling the filter It visibly looked OK, but you could hardly blow through it. I keep 2 spare filters in the plane now in the tool bag.

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_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....
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thesupe(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

On the subject of fuel filters, after haveing to make an off field landing in my Avid when a filter plugged up on me, (no damage except almost to my shorts LOL) I added a second filter in parallel to the other one. I have a fuel shut off valve that stops the flow through the second filter. I use both filters for take off and climb, then close the second filter off. I don't have a fuel flow gauge, but if the engine ever starts to miss, the first thing I will do is open the valve for the second fuel filter. Almost all the flow goes through the first filter, so the back up filter should be clear. Take care, JIm Chuk Avids, Kitfox 4 Mn

Quote:
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582
From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:11:51 -0700
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com



I was of the opinion that an electric back up pump was overkill... but my plane had one on it install by the original builder so I left it on. It has saved me twice when the fuel filter started to plug off. Between the mechanical and electric pump I was able to maintain fuel flow till I could get back to the lake. I was flying in cruise and burned about 5.6 GPH, I was flying along straight and level and noticed I was only flowing 3.9 GPH. I hit the electric pump and flow went back to normal. After landing and pulling the filter It visibly looked OK, but you could hardly blow through it. I keep 2 spare filters in the plane now in the tool bag.

--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294850#294850







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Pat Reilly



Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 Reply with quote

Len, What type of filter are you using?
 
Pat Reily
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:11 AM, akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com (akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com (akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com)>

I was of the opinion that an electric back up pump was overkill... but my plane had one on it install by the original builder so I left it on.  It has saved me twice when the fuel filter started to plug off.  Between the mechanical and electric pump I was able to maintain fuel flow till I could get back to the lake.  I was flying in cruise and burned about 5.6 GPH, I was flying along straight and level and noticed I was only flowing 3.9 GPH.  I hit the electric pump and flow went back to normal.  After landing and pulling the filter It visibly looked OK, but you could hardly blow through it.  I keep 2 spare filters in the plane now in the tool bag.

--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294850#294850
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Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
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