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rv10(at)colohan.com
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 Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) |
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When building that bench, make sure you use 2x4's that are _absolutely_ straight, and even better if they have also seasoned a few years (aka, perfectly dry).
I bought the "premium" 2x4's at my local Home Depot, and found that after I assembled my bench (with a 3/4" plywood top) there was a 1/8" to 3/16" warp in the work surface. Not good. So I got some MDF, set it up perfectly flat on top of the bench (using washers as shims), and screwed it down.
I'm still working on my tail section, but here are some random things I've learned so far which I'll type up while they are still fresh in my mind:
- you can save gobs of money by buying tools used (vansairforce, local EAA chapters, ebay). The problem is that when you are first starting you don't know which cheap tools are a good deal, and which ones are cheap for a reason. You also don't know which tools are "needed", and which ones are more of a gimmick. (For example: what the heck is a "dimpling mallet"? Why is it any better than a $3 rubber mallet from the local hardware store?) On the other hand, some of my used tool buys are in the category of "I'd have never thought to buy this one new" and yet is "OMG completely invaluable" for certain operations.
- the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO.
- As a beginner, I've found that: (a) squeezing a rivet produces a better result than backriveting which produces a better result than bucking it. (b) it is hard to mess up a squeezed rivet or a backrivet. It is trivial to mess up a bucked rivet. (c) squeezing a 3/32" rivet is easy. squeezing a 1/8" rivet is a feat of strength I am not strong enough to do. Well -- this is true with both the Avery squeezer I borrowed from a friend, and the old-school hand squeezer I bought used. I recently bought a Cleavland Main Squeeze, and this thing is a work of art -- it makes squeezing perfect 1/8" rivets absolutely trivial. I love this tool. (Sadly, it is expensive.) The pneumatic also makes it possible for me to squeeze a 1/8" rivet, but it is really finicky about positioning the ram to get it squeezed right, heavier, and harder to position in awkward places. I find that I end up with a better result using the main squeeze. (I could see how with practice I'd get better with the pneumatic and it would be faster -- but I have time to do things right...)
- It is easier to mess up a bucked rivet with too much air pressure than with too little. Always start with too little and dial it up, not the reverse.
- For your scotchbrite wheel you can mount it on a grinder or a buffer. I bought a cheap grinder, which works. My friends bought a cheap buffer, which has a longer shaft. I envy them, since they can get their wheel into more tight places.
- Deburring the inside of lightening holes is a real pain. Until you get a $30 die grinder from Home Depot and a 1" scotchbrite wheel -- then it becomes easy (and incredibly noisy).
- Buy a cheap belt/disc sander. I got a combo 1" belt/5" disc sander from Harbor Freight. It is _way_ better to cut outside a line and sand down than to try and cut a line.
- Don't try to debur the edge of a skin just using a die grinder and scotchbrite wheel. You will waste too much time, and burn through grinder wheels like crazy. Easier is to: (a) use a regular file (not a vixen file!) to get rid of the cut marks and make the edge flat. (b) then quickly run the die grinder down the edge.
- For smoothing/deburring the cut edge of thicker pieces: start off with a file (not a vixen file!). You will want some jeweler's files for getting inside corners. This will get rid of the cut marks. Then use sandpaper (I find that sanding sponges work well here). Then a quick buffing on the scotchbrite wheel will polish it nice and smooth. You will get much worse results if you go straight to the scotchbrite wheel (as I did the first time I tried this).
- I haven't yet found a use for a vixen file. This tool appears to be made for taking off aluminum quickly from rough-cut pieces. Most of the RV-10 that I've encountered so far is pre-cut pieces. My belt/disc sander works better for me for getting edges down to a line.
- If you leave the blue plastic on pieces it helps stop you from scratching the nice shiny alclad, and makes it prettier. I hear that if you leave this stuff on too long it becomes a real pain to take off -- but I have not yet had that problem, after 2 months. (Fingers crossed.)
- I got a pair of chucking reamers for match drilling the pre-drilled holes (#30 and #40). As a result, I tend not to get burrs on holes. Well, I still go through the motions of deburring, but for the life of me I can't tell the difference in pre- and post-deburring of these holes. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, or perhaps using this tool means I don't have to deburr.
- You can never have enough light in your workshop. If in doubt, put up some more fluorescent strips.
- Join a local EAA chapter and visit a few builders, to see what they are doing and get their advice.
- Take a SportAir workshop if you can. Working on aluminum which is Not Your Plane lets you make your mistakes on stuff which doesn't matter.
- The vertical stabilizer nose-ribs are too long, and you will want to sand 1/8" off their tips to avoid denting the skin. Do this _before_ you assemble it for the first time. (oops) Read Tim Olsen's site, which contains this critical tip and others.
- When you go to put your vertical stabilizer skin on for the first test fit, get a friend to help you wrestle it. This is a challenging thing to do by yourself.
- When putting that vertical stabilizer skin on, pull out the fiberglass tip fairings which are supposed to match it. You may have to coax the bend of the front of the skin to match the bend at the nose of the fairing -- and easier to do this while the skin is still not attached. (Yup, I never thought of this one...)
- If the plans tell you not to dimple/match drill a hole, put tape over it to remind you. You will forget. Even if you circle it in bright red marker to remind yourself.
- _Always_ clamp down a part before riveting it, either with the squeezer or the rivet gun. This will save you much grief.
- Speaking of which, the Irwin bar clamps (or similar) are absolutely incredibly useful for clamping down random things to your bench while you work on them. A few cleco clamps are also really useful to have.
- When inventorying your kit, check the formed parts for cracks. Never thought of checking for this, and a cracked piece later slowed me down while I waited for a replacement in the mail. (Double check part R-1004.)
- If you buy a two-part primer, and a "calibrated paint mixing cup", double check that the calibration is accurate. My first batch of primer (and hence the entire inside of my vertical stabilizer) had twice as much reducer than it should have, since the calibrated scale was printed on the wrong part of the cup...
- Speaking of which, if you want to hear a whole series of people with very strong (and divergent) opinions on a plane building topic, ask about what primer to use. Then step back, waay back. Also can be a good way of losing your new plane-building friends. You will spend way too long deciding what you want to do, and form your own opinion. By the time you spend a gazillion hours on your chosen technique, you too will either hate it, or feel strongly that your chosen method is the one true way ('cause why else would you have put all that work into it?).
Chris
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 6:14 AM, Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)>
Tony
This link : ( http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm )
will take you the plans for the "official" EAA workbenches (if there is such
a thing. I put mine on heavy duty wheels (lockable) so I could move it
around easily. They are very strong, dirt cheap to make and entirely
functional. I put MDF on the top of mine as it is soft and there are no
splinters to worry about. I made two and, on occasion, clamped them together
to make a single large surface.
If you alter the dimensions of the plans, you can make smaller (or full size
if space permits) work benches to hold some of your power tools such as band
saw, drill press and grinder.
I found a table top belt sander / disk sander to be invaluable. I learned
from experience that when making long straight cuts on the band saw, it was
better to cut proud of the cut line and then use the sander to take the
material down to the cut line.
This dimpler:
http://www.averytools.com/pc-619-84-drdt-2-hand-dimpling-tool.aspx is
absolute gold. It is much faster and easier to dimple using this tool. I
can't imagine building without it.
When mounting my gear, I placed the whole fuselage (without the tail) on a
table. I used an engine crane to lift it. It was the perfect height to allow
the gear legs to be installed safely.
When you get you kit(s), keep the Styrofoam sheets, or a least some of it,
to put under large components during assembly.
I also made, using 2X4's and MDF, a large dolly for the fuse once I moved
into the "boat" phase. It was 4' wide and about 6' long. It also was on
castoring wheels.
I am a big fan of MDF as it is perfectly flat, cheap and doesn't splinter.
Cheers
Les
#40643
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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:35 pm Post subject: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) |
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... while I see some sense in the comment below about the pneumatic rivet squeezer, the DRDT-2 Dimpler I found to be a huge improvement over the C-Frame and mallet approach. I used the C-Frame for the first half of the project, then borrowed a fellow builders DRDT-2 for the second half. It's much faster, less prone to mistakes and QUIETER. If I ever start another project, the first thing I will do is buy my own DRDT-2.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Chris Colohan wrote:
[quote]
"- the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO."
[quote]
Cheers
Les
#40643
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N520TX
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:44 pm Post subject: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) |
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Not to mention a MUCH smaller chance of whackin your hand with the mallet.
(a DRDT-2 convert)
Ron
[quote] ---
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woodsie
Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 18
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) |
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Guys I am extremely grateful for your wise words and input. Chris your comments and guidance are very, very much appreciated. For a total newbie, it gives huge confidence to know that there is a whole bunch of other people out there who also started out thinking a bucking bar was somewhere they got thrown out of in Anchorage....
Tony Woods
Sustainable Energy Services Afghanistan
خدÙ
ات اÙرÚÛ Ø§ÙغاÙستاÙ
www.sesa.af
twoods(at)sesa.af
int tel +6421576555
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker
Sent: Monday, 19 April 2010 12:44 p.m.
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...)
Not to mention a MUCH smaller chance of whackin your hand with the mallet.
(a DRDT-2 convert)
Ron
[quote]
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Carpenter (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...)
... while I see some sense in the comment below about the pneumatic rivet squeezer, the DRDT-2 Dimpler I found to be a huge improvement over the C-Frame and mallet approach. I used the C-Frame for the first half of the project, then borrowed a fellow builders DRDT-2 for the second half. It's much faster, less prone to mistakes and QUIETER. If I ever start another project, the first thing I will do is buy my own DRDT-2.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Chris Colohan wrote:
"- the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO."
[quote]
Cheers
Les
#40643
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Woodsie
waiting for Empennage to arrive  |
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woodsie
Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 18
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) |
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Oh yeah – a DRDT-2 was the first thing I brought...
Tony
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker
Sent: Monday, 19 April 2010 12:44 p.m.
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...)
Not to mention a MUCH smaller chance of whackin your hand with the mallet.
(a DRDT-2 convert)
Ron
[quote]
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Carpenter (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...)
... while I see some sense in the comment below about the pneumatic rivet squeezer, the DRDT-2 Dimpler I found to be a huge improvement over the C-Frame and mallet approach. I used the C-Frame for the first half of the project, then borrowed a fellow builders DRDT-2 for the second half. It's much faster, less prone to mistakes and QUIETER. If I ever start another project, the first thing I will do is buy my own DRDT-2.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Chris Colohan wrote:
"- the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO."
[quote]
Cheers
Les
#40643
--
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_________________
Woodsie
waiting for Empennage to arrive |
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richard.beebe(at)yale.edu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) |
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Chris Colohan wrote:
| Quote: | When building that bench, make sure you use 2x4's that are _absolutely_
straight, and even better if they have also seasoned a few years (aka,
perfectly dry).
I bought the "premium" 2x4's at my local Home Depot, and found that
after I assembled my bench (with a 3/4" plywood top) there was a 1/8" to
3/16" warp in the work surface. Not good. So I got some MDF, set it up
perfectly flat on top of the bench (using washers as shims), and screwed
it down.
|
If you have a tablesaw, a better option is a torsion box top. I make
mine out of a 1/2" MDF core, 1/4" MDF bottom and either 1/2 or 3/4" MDF
top. By their nature, they pretty much have to come out dead flat. In
case you don't know what it is there's an example here:
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-18-assembly-table-torsion-box/
Alternately, you can rip some 3/4" plywood into 3 1/2" strips and glue
them together to make your own "2x4"s.
--Rick
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