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NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

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Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:35 pm Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

I finally got back to working on the brakes.  The c-90 brake calipers now being used on the MK-3x and others require a brake pedal ratio of 4:1 to have really good braking power.  The pedals being used on our Kolbs have a ratio of 1:1 or less, according to Matco.  If you don't seem to have good braking power, this is probably your problem.  I have been thinking about this for a while, trying to find an easy way to modify what we already have.  The picture should answer any questions you may have to modify your existing pedals.  This arrangement should give you a ratio of 3:1.  You could improve even more on this by raising the top of the pedal another inch giving you the full 4:1 ratio called out for the the instructions. 



Rick Lewis

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Rick Lewis

(VW Watercooled Engine)

elleryweld(at)aol.com
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

could you press one of the pedals  in a pic to show how this system works from what I see in the pic all it would give you is more dead linkeage  but I could be wrong 

     	  Quote: 	
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 working to much to get any flying in 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

Yeah, Ellery, that's what I thought, too.  It must work better in real life than it looks like in the picture.

 I'm going to be installing my brake cylinders and fluid tomorrow!  

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII CX

 

  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:17:13 -0400

From: elleryweld(at)aol.com



could you press one of the pedals  in a pic to show how this system works from what I see in the pic all it would give you is more dead linkeage  but I could be wrong 

   	  Quote: 	
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working to much to get any flying in 



  Ellery Batchelder Jr.



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Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:54 am Post subject: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

This arrangement will give you a 3:1 ratio at the pedal.  Look closely at the attach points and you will understand how it works.  The lower two bolts are 1" out from the pedals plate, and the top of the pedal is 3" up from this point.  This give you the 3:1 ratio.  After making the initial prototype I could instantly feel the difference.  Try to think of this as a crowbar pulling a nail, only this is pushing a rod.

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Rick Lewis

(VW Watercooled Engine)

Last edited by Rick Lewis on Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:04 am Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

Depending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage.The other thing to consider is that increasing leverage, whether mechanical or hydraulic, can get you to brake lock and a quick flip over on your back.

 Just a couple of thoughts.

Rick Girard



On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com (elleryweld(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote]could you press one of the pedals  in a pic to show how this system works from what I see in the pic all it would give you is more dead linkeage  but I could be wrong 

      	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  	
	


 working to much to get any flying in 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

kuffel(at)cyberport.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

Richard,

  

 << bore  of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall that Matco only makes them in  5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes them, I checked) and increase your  hydraulic leverage >>

  

 Am I missing something?  I thought the  hydraulic leverage was the ratio of the area of the two pistons involved.   Increasing the size of the master piston reduces this ratio.

  

 Tom Kuffel

    [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: Need more braking power?

Increasing the cylinder size from 5/8" to 3/4" will give you a quicker responce, because it will move more oil for the same stroke.  It will also give you less applied force at the brakes for the same pedal pressure.  The pedal will move less, and need to be pressed harder to achieve the same braking force.  Changing the pedal geometry allows you to apply more leverage against the master cylinder, and down to the wheel.  It's a balancing act.

  

                                          Bill Sullivan

                                          Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                          FS 447

 [quote][b]

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

This drawing, from Matco, is were I got the idea on the configuration I'm presenting to the group.  Going to there site will clear up anyone having a hard time understanding how this pedal configuration increases your braking power.  What I was trying to do is come up with an easy way that everyone can increase there braking power with a simple modification.  It really does make an incredible difference.  I did a similar method on my previous home built, a Cozy.    



Rick Lewis

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Rick Lewis

(VW Watercooled Engine)

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

I am  pretty good at working with mechanical things and I just dont see how that setup will do what you say it will you can send a pic of a pedal pushed and that will tell the story much better than your explanation 

    

    

 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:01:19 -0500

From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>

 	  Quote: 	

Depending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall 

that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes 

them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage.

 	  Quote: 	

Rick,

What is important here is the force that can be applied to the brake.  The 

higher the hydraulic pressure developed the greater the braking force.  If 

one assumes a 100 pound force is applied to the cylinder piston rod, the 

hydraulic pressure developed will be force/piston area. For the 3/4 inch 

diameter piston = 100/(3/8x3/8xpi) = 226 psi.  For the 5/8 inch diameter 

piston = 100/(5/16x5/16xpi) = 326 psi.  So for the same pedal effort the 

smaller bore cylinder will give 44% increase in pressure and braking. 

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

I agree with Jack's figures 

    

   "The drawing you submitted to the list"  if you have your Points as the drawings show you will only have changed the length of your pedal   and not gained anything by adding the extra linkage 

 because both both setups are doing the same thing  with the same arm lengths pushing the plunger down  to make pressure in the brake system where you are Gaining on braking power is having longer brake pedals that is all it boils down to You changed the length of your brake pedals from 1X to 2.5X that is what your drawings show 

   I have heal brakes that worked good with small tires on ,when I went with the 800-6 tires I lengthened my brake pedals 1.5 inches longer to make them as good as with the smaller tires  I didn't change anything else on the pedals other than the length from the pivot point  north 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

Oops! My only excuse is that I was six hours into watching my 3 year old grandson, blaring Wallace and Gromit video going in the background and trying to think all at the same time.



Rick



 On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com (elleryweld(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote]  I agree with Jack's figures 

    

   "The drawing you submitted to the list"  if you have your Points as the drawings show you will only have changed the length of your pedal   and not gained anything by adding the extra linkage 

 because both both setups are doing the same thing  with the same arm lengths pushing the plunger down  to make pressure in the brake system where you are Gaining on braking power is having longer brake pedals that is all it boils down to You changed the length of your brake pedals from 1X to 2.5X that is what your drawings show 

    I have heal brakes that worked good with small tires on ,when I went with the 800-6 tires I lengthened my brake pedals 1.5 inches longer to make them as good as with the smaller tires  I didn't change anything else on the pedals other than the length from the pivot point  north 

  

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:49 am Post subject: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER?

everyone can increase there braking power with a simple modification.>>



I can see that just increasing the pedal length will increase the leverage 

available to the pilot and thus increase the pressure he can apply.  Are 

there any limiting factors `downline? Joints and pipes premumably have an 

upper pressure limit.



Pat

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