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N-Number question

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Steven J.

Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 1

Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject: N-Number question

Hey guys, great forum. I have a question concerning N-Numbering. I have been looking at a Firefly that is for sale. It is a very nice aircraft but during my inspection of the rudder I noticed a faint outline of an N-number. I later came home and run the number through the FAA N-number query and out came the number. It says that it was a reserved number that was cancelled/not assigned. It seems somewhat obvious that the number was never officially assigned to the aircraft but I wanted to check here first. I believe if an N-number is assigned that you can't later un-assign it. I just want to make sure I can keep the aircraft in the Ultralight catagory.



Thanks

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:30 am Post subject: N-Number question

Steven, The number was cancelled because the owner never renewed it or completed the process of getting an experimental airworthiness certificate. Had the certificate been issued you might have some difficulties getting that undone but since it wasn't you should be fine as long as the aircraft itself meets the ultralight standards.  My advice would be to make sure the fuel system has a 5 gallon capacity, since this is the easiest violation to spot other than a second seat, and have the aircraft weighed prior to buying it so you know that it truly falls within FAR 103 limits. If the owner has completed the worksheets from AC 103-7 all the better, but verify the weight so you know exactly where you stand before the aircraft is yours. 



Rick Girard



On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Steven J. <shandle1(at)numail.org (shandle1(at)numail.org)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steven J." <shandle1(at)numail.org (shandle1(at)numail.org)>

 

 Hey guys, great forum. I have a question concerning N-Numbering. I have been looking at a Firefly that is for sale. It is a very nice aircraft but during my inspection of the rudder I noticed a faint outline of an N-number. I later came home and run the number through the FAA N-number query and out came the number. It says that it was a reserved number that was cancelled/not assigned. It seems somewhat obvious that the number was never officially assigned to the aircraft but I wanted to check here first. I believe if an N-number is assigned that you can't later un-assign it. I just want to make sure I can keep the aircraft in the Ultralight catagory.

  

 Thanks

 

 

 

 

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:40 am Post subject: Re: N-Number question

Steven,



It is more probable that the N-number was reserved by the owner or builder who had plans of registering it as an airplane. Regardless of whether it was "assigned" or "reserved" or even actually used by that aircraft, as long as it meets the part 103 limitations, it can be de-registered and flown legally as an ultralight vehicle. 



If it was me contemplating flying it as a legal ultralight, I would make sure it complies with the weight limitations before committing to its purchase. If the owner was planning on registering it and getting an experimental airworthiness certificate, then there is a good chance that was because it was/is overweight.



All this assumes you care about flying legally. If you live way out in the boonies you may not care and perhaps get away with it. In my area that would be quite risky, especially since the owner of the airport where I fly out of is an FAA inspector.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: N-Number question

At 07:27 PM 5/1/10 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hey guys, great forum. I have a question concerning N-Numbering. I have 

been looking at a Firefly that is for sale. It is a very nice aircraft but 
	


during my inspection of the rudder I noticed a faint outline of an N-number. 

I later came home and run the number through the FAA N-number query and out 

came the number. It says that it was a reserved number that was 

cancelled/not assigned. It seems somewhat obvious that the number was never 

officially assigned to the aircraft but I wanted to check here first. I 

believe if an N-number is assigned that you can't later un-assign it. I just 

want to make sure I can keep the aircraft in the Ultralight catagory.

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


If you can check these two items on the AC 103-7, Appendix 4 form, you can 

ignor what is under the paint.



"AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATION:

(v)	no U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate is currently issued to this 

particular ultralight unit



(v)	this ultralight has not been registered with the U.S. federal 

government."



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:11 am Post subject: Re: N-Number question

...(v)	this ultralight has not been registered with the U.S. federal 

government." ...



Jack,



You are correct. I forgot about the "never has been registered" clause. My agin memory rears its ugly head.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: Re: N-Number question

 	  Quote: 	
		  especially since the owner of the airport where I fly out of is an FAA inspector. 	




To your knowledge has this inspector cited any aircraft in your locale for noncompliance with Part 103?



Let me address this to everyone; Has ANY of us, in our local area, been aware of anyone being cited for noncompliance? I'm not interested in some newbie trying to fly a two-place trainer as an UL, but planes that look mostly UL-like. Maybe they are a tad heavy, or don't have the stall characteristics, etc.



I really don't hear about much of that happening except after a crash or something and I'm curious.



GeoB

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GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: Re: N-Number question

GeoB,



Not to my knowledge in my area, but my knowledge is incomplete. Lack of enforcement of the rules is likely due to insufficient manpower. However, the larger fly-ins tend to attract the FAA folks so it seems to me the risk of getting cited at one of these functions is higher than at your home airport during normal ops. 



do not archive

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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: N-Number question

At 12:49 PM 5/3/2010, GeoB wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Let me address this to everyone; Has ANY of us, in our local area, been aware of anyone being cited for noncompliance? I'm not interested in some newbie trying to fly a two-place trainer as an UL, but planes that look mostly UL-like. Maybe they are a tad heavy, or don't have the stall characteristics, etc. 	


 I've heard of nothing local.



 I've heard of two, elsewhere.  One is a story floating around on the internet, a guy flying a 2 place which he was in the middle of the ELSA transition but hadn't received the paperwork yet, and an FAA guy who was on the field to look at an air charter operation, but they didn't show.  Wasn't cited, just told not to fly it again until it was legal.



 The other one was the guy who recently wrote an article in Ultraflight magazine, claiming he'd been ramp checked five times with his PPC.  The story sounded far fetched to me.



 The real risk is if you piss somebody off, or have an emergency landing, and they decide to investigate.  I don't think I'd want to fly an overweight UL at Sun-N-Fun or Oshkosh, though...



 -Dana

 --

  New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland Security:  Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil liberties or the U.S. Constitution.    [quote][b]

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: N-Number question

I have flown to Oshkosh four times and Sun-N-Fun once and have never heard of anyone being checked. In fact I tried to get the FAA to crack down on the Titan Mustang guys at Sun-N-fun two years ago but they wouldn't do anything other than agree something should be done. Our John H has a knack getting the FAA types worked up at Sun-N-Fun but they have always backed down. 

   

 Generally they are so happy that we fly in that they aren't about to do anything to discourage our participation. Seems like besides John and I there were only two other pilots camping with their planes at the UL/LSA strip at Sun-N-Fun this year.   

 

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



 On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]At 12:49 PM 5/3/2010, GeoB wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Let me address this to everyone; Has ANY of us, in our local area, been aware of anyone being cited for noncompliance? I'm not interested in some newbie trying to fly a two-place trainer as an UL, but planes that look mostly UL-like. Maybe they are a tad heavy, or don't have the stall characteristics, etc. 	
 

I've heard of nothing local.



I've heard of two, elsewhere.  One is a story floating around on the internet, a guy flying a 2 place which he was in the middle of the ELSA transition but hadn't received the paperwork yet, and an FAA guy who was on the field to look at an air charter operation, but they didn't show.  Wasn't cited, just told not to fly it again until it was legal.

 

The other one was the guy who recently wrote an article in Ultraflight magazine, claiming he'd been ramp checked five times with his PPC.  The story sounded far fetched to me.



The real risk is if you piss somebody off, or have an emergency landing, and they decide to investigate.  I don't think I'd want to fly an overweight UL at Sun-N-Fun or Oshkosh, though...

 

-Dana

 --

 New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland Security:  Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil liberties or the U.S. Constitution.  	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

radiobluebook(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: N-Number question

I don't recall the aircraft type, but there was a Sport Plane of some sort for sale on eBay about a year ago. It had an N number on it, but it was fictitious. The owner claimed he was selling it because he got checked while flying into Sun-n-Fun and had to pay the fine. I guess they must have really made someone mad.

 

Duane



On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Richard Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have flown to Oshkosh four times and Sun-N-Fun once and have never heard of anyone being checked. In fact I tried to get the FAA to crack down on the Titan Mustang guys at Sun-N-fun two years ago but they wouldn't do anything other than agree something should be done. Our John H has a knack getting the FAA types worked up at Sun-N-Fun but they have always backed down. 

    

 Generally they are so happy that we fly in that they aren't about to do anything to discourage our participation. Seems like besides John and I there were only two other pilots camping with their planes at the UL/LSA strip at Sun-N-Fun this year.   

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



 On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  At 12:49 PM 5/3/2010, GeoB wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Let me address this to everyone; Has ANY of us, in our local area, been aware of anyone being cited for noncompliance? I'm not interested in some newbie trying to fly a two-place trainer as an UL, but planes that look mostly UL-like. Maybe they are a tad heavy, or don't have the stall characteristics, etc. 	
  

I've heard of nothing local.



I've heard of two, elsewhere.  One is a story floating around on the internet, a guy flying a 2 place which he was in the middle of the ELSA transition but hadn't received the paperwork yet, and an FAA guy who was on the field to look at an air charter operation, but they didn't show.  Wasn't cited, just told not to fly it again until it was legal.

  

The other one was the guy who recently wrote an article in Ultraflight magazine, claiming he'd been ramp checked five times with his PPC.  The story sounded far fetched to me.



The real risk is if you piss somebody off, or have an emergency landing, and they decide to investigate.  I don't think I'd want to fly an overweight UL at Sun-N-Fun or Oshkosh, though...

  

-Dana

 --

 New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland Security:  Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil liberties or the U.S. Constitution.  	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

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-- 

Sincerely,



Duane

www.amateurradiobluebook.com

  [quote][b]

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