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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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There is little lift produced by airfoil shapes over the cockpit roof. Reduction of turbulence is why smooth shapes are used on upper surfaces. Lift at any angle of attack are produced by air molecules acting on the bottom surfaces of the wings and the fuselage. Bernoulli is a myth Newton got it right! Attached is a piece I use to tell first graders how airplanes fly. Are you smarter than a first grader?
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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I'm really disappointed by the kind of teaching kids are getting these
days. It seems so easy to discount the history of aircraft design and
data accumulated over
the years by an uninformed teacher in a classroom. Perhaps you'd like to
consider the Luscombe 8A bottom wing surfaces being at a slight negative
angle at best cruise of 105 mph or explain the rationale for carrying
such expensive airfoils on sail planes. Pity the poor first graders!
Obviously, you're jerking someone's chain here and I'm sorry I bit on it!.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
JohnDRead(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | There is little lift produced by airfoil shapes over the cockpit roof.
Reduction of turbulence is why smooth shapes are used on upper
surfaces. Lift at any angle of attack are produced by air molecules
acting on the bottom surfaces of the wings and the fuselage. Bernoulli
is a myth Newton got it right! Attached is a piece I use to tell first
graders how airplanes fly. Are you smarter than a first grader?
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
*
*
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FLYDAD57(at)neo.rr.com
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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My thoughts exactly, Larry. Thanks for taking the lead here. I do suppose,
however, that there is some upward force applied directly to the bottom
surface of the wing. This is commonly known as the barndoor effect. While
he has the players correct, Mr. Bernoulli's work is certainly not mythical.
Anyone with any practical wind tunnel experience would know.
I commend him on his efforts to inform the young about the theories of
flight, and even condone the simplification of the principles, but to
discount the airfoil is ridiculous. As is the idea that air is "hard". If
he is actually acting an any teaching role, the chain he is jerking is that
of the school administrators. Unfortunately, they probably don't know the
facts either.
Bob Taylor
Wadsworth, Ohio
N657RT
---
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vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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So it was a 'myth' force that ripped that securely applied duct tape.If that's the case then we need to exploit that 'myth force' and maybe we could make an airplane fly with it.....
JG
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:37 PM, <JohnDRead(at)aol.com (JohnDRead(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] There is little lift produced by airfoil shapes over the cockpit roof. Reduction of turbulence is why smooth shapes are used on upper surfaces. Lift at any angle of attack are produced by air molecules acting on the bottom surfaces of the wings and the fuselage. Bernoulli is a myth Newton got it right! Attached is a piece I use to tell first graders how airplanes fly. Are you smarter than a first grader?
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
[b]
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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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Was the duct tape TSO’d J
Randall J Hebert
N7701P
Almost Finished, Yea right
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JG
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:46 PM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: How an airplane flies
So it was a 'myth' force that ripped that securely applied duct tape.
If that's the case then we need to exploit that 'myth force' and maybe we could make an airplane fly with it.....
JG
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:37 PM, <JohnDRead(at)aol.com (JohnDRead(at)aol.com)> wrote:
There is little lift produced by airfoil shapes over the cockpit roof. Reduction of turbulence is why smooth shapes are used on upper surfaces. Lift at any angle of attack are produced by air molecules acting on the bottom surfaces of the wings and the fuselage. Bernoulli is a myth Newton got it right! Attached is a piece I use to tell first graders how airplanes fly. Are you smarter than a first grader?
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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Gentlemen and Ladies;
Before you waste time slamming me I suggest that you buy a copy of Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche, read the intro "Part 1" and Chapter 1 then at least then you will know where I am coming from. From each of your comments, sadly, it is clear that neither of you know why or how an airplane, or wing, flies. Larry, as to the Luscombe's apparent negative angle of attach - nonsense - check the mean chord line it will be positive or the airplane will not stay up! Bob, Bernoulli is easily disproven - take a sheet of writing paper hold it by the corners and blow gently over the top, it will rise, then try blowing harder and you will notice that it will not rise much more. Now, prove Newton by blowing under the paper and the paper will rise with much less effort, with harder blowing it will be almost straight out. The First Graders understand these simple things as their brains are not yet addled with strange incorrect theories.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 5/13/2010 10:37:48 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, FLYDAD57(at)neo.rr.com writes:
[quote]--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "Robert D. Taylor" <FLYDAD57(at)neo.rr.com>
My thoughts exactly, Larry. Thanks for taking the lead here. I do suppose,
however, that there is some upward force applied directly to the bottom
surface of the wing. This is commonly known as the barndoor effect. While
he has the players correct, Mr. Bernoulli's work is certainly not mythical.
Anyone with any practical wind tunnel experience would know.
I commend him on his efforts to inform the young about the theories of
flight, and even condone the simplification of the principles, but to
discount the airfoil is ridiculous. As is the idea that air is "hard". If
he is actually acting an any teaching role, the chain he is jerking is that
of the school administrators. Unfortunately, they probably don't know the
facts either.
Bob Taylor
Wadsworth, Ohio
N657RT
---
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dougsnash
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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Duct tape is also known as 100mph tape because it is an authorized repair for the tail surfaces of fabric covered aircraft with a VNE of below 100mph.
So in this case, it would not be an authorized repair becasue the 701 is not fabric, it was not used on the tail, and the VNE is over 100mph.
But hey, it is experimental aviation so all bets are off.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 scratch builder
Thursday afternoon wise ass
Do Not Archive
--- On Thu, 5/13/10, Randall J Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Randall J Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>
Subject: RE: How an airplane flies
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Received: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 4:17 PM
Was the duct tape TSO’d J
Randall J Hebert
N7701P
Almost Finished, Yea right
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JG
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:46 PM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: How an airplane flies
So it was a 'myth' force that ripped that securely applied duct tape.
If that's the case then we need to exploit that 'myth force' and maybe we could make an airplane fly with it.....
JG
|
[quote][b]
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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Not enough duct tape to overcome the turbulence.
Airplanes are not sucked up into the air by the Benoulli effect, they are blown up into the air by the "Newton" effect.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 5/13/2010 2:46:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au writes:
| Quote: | So it was a 'myth' force that ripped that securely applied duct tape. If that's the case then we need to exploit that 'myth force' and maybe we could make an airplane fly with it.....
JG
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:37 PM, <JohnDRead(at)aol.com (JohnDRead(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | There is little lift produced by airfoil shapes over the cockpit roof. Reduction of turbulence is why smooth shapes are used on upper surfaces. Lift at any angle of attack are produced by air molecules acting on the bottom surfaces of the wings and the fuselage. Bernoulli is a myth Newton got it right! Attached is a piece I use to tell first graders how airplanes fly. Are you smarter than a first grader?
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
====================================
List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
====================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
|
[quote][b]
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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John,
If you're going to teach, you should at least learn to read and convey
what the author was saying about the theory of flight. The link below
brings you to the quotation
where he says that Bernoulli's principal theory is indeed correct and
true. It may not help the student pilot to learn to fly, but it is still
indeed true. Perhaps you should be
in another job where you can expound on things less difficult to read
and describe. Pity the poor first graders with a liberal teacher that
cannot pass along the truth.
http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Rudder-Explanation-Art-Flying/dp/0070362408#reader_0070362408
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Do not archive
JohnDRead(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Gentlemen and Ladies;
Before you waste time slamming me I
suggest that you buy a copy of Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang
Langewiesche, read the intro "Part 1" and Chapter 1 then at least then
you will know where I am coming from. From each of your comments,
sadly, it is clear that neither of you know why or how an airplane, or
wing, flies. Larry, as to the Luscombe's apparent negative angle of
attach - nonsense - check the mean chord line it will be positive or
the airplane will not stay up! Bob, Bernoulli is easily disproven -
take a sheet of writing paper hold it by the corners and blow gently
over the top, it will rise, then try blowing harder and you will
notice that it will not rise much more. Now, prove Newton by blowing
under the paper and the paper will rise with much less effort, with
harder blowing it will be almost straight out. The First Graders
understand these simple things as their brains are not yet addled with
strange incorrect theories.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
|
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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Larry, I did not say Bernoulli was incorrect merely that his theory is NOT why an airplane flies, it's Newton. Go read the book.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 5/13/2010 6:16:21 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, larry(at)macsmachine.com writes:
| Quote: | http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Rudder-Explanation-Art-Flying/dp/0070362408#reader_0070362408
|
[quote][b]
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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"The plane floats on air like a boat floats on water." WRONG!!!!!
A lighter than air craft floats like boat floats on water, kinda!
Go back to school and take a physics course.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
do not archive
JohnDRead(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | There is little lift produced by airfoil shapes over the cockpit roof.
Reduction of turbulence is why smooth shapes are used on upper
surfaces. Lift at any angle of attack are produced by air molecules
acting on the bottom surfaces of the wings and the fuselage. Bernoulli
is a myth Newton got it right! Attached is a piece I use to tell first
graders how airplanes fly. Are you smarter than a first grader?
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
*
*
|
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:44 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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Well that was educational. Let's switch to which color Scotchbrite, VGs and cheap rivets from China. Oh and let's not forget poorly flown aircraft that break their wings.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
[quote][b]
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ch701builder(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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Hey John,
Educational... YES.
I always thought that "MONEY" is what made airplanes fly. The more you spend the higher and faster it flies.
Example:
$60,000 a fairly nice 12O MPH plane
$600,000 a little bit faster plane
$6,000,000 a faster plane.
$60,000,000 .... you get the picture ...
... and so forth ....
Keith
CH701 - scratch
(invested around $4,000 so far, so my plane DOESN'T fly... )
N 38.9940
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
Divide, CO
********************************************************
From: "JohnDRead(at)aol.com" <JohnDRead(at)aol.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 7:44:23 PM
Subject: Re: How an airplane flies
Well that was educational. Let's switch to which color Scotchbrite, VGs and cheap rivets from China. Oh and let's not forget poorly flown aircraft that break their wings.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
[quote]
[b]
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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Hi Keith;
How is your plane coming along? I have the engine on mine - there is still plenty to do though. do not archive
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 5/13/2010 9:19:24 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ch701builder(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Hey John,
Educational... YES.
I always thought that "MONEY" is what made airplanes fly. The more you spend the higher and faster it flies.
Example:
$60,000 a fairly nice 12O MPH plane
$600,000 a little bit faster plane
$6,000,000 a faster plane.
$60,000,000 .... you get the picture ...
... and so forth ....
Keith
CH701 - scratch
(invested around $4,000 so far, so my plane DOESN'T fly...)
N 38.9940
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
Divide, CO
********************************************************
From: "JohnDRead(at)aol.com" <JohnDRead(at)aol.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 7:44:23 PM
Subject: Re: How an airplane flies
Well that was educational. Let's switch to which color Scotchbrite, VGs and cheap rivets from China. Oh and let's not forget poorly flown aircraft that break their wings.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
| Quote: |
====================================
List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
====================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
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[quote][b]
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dons701
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: How an airplane flies |
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My thoughts,
From the Bernoulli effect, the increased velocity means that the pressure is reduced at the top, and the decreased velocity on the bottom results in an increased pressure.
The result is a net upward force.
I.E. Suck and blow?
Don
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_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop |
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ch701builder(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: How an airplane flies |
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|
Well... it would be farther along if I wasn't TDY so much. I have been here at Dugway Proving Grounds, outside of Salt Lake since March 28th, so not a whole lot is being accomplished.
Keith
******************************************************
From: "JohnDRead(at)aol.com" <JohnDRead(at)aol.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 9:49:22 PM
Subject: Re: How an airplane flies
Hi Keith;
How is your plane coming along? I have the engine on mine - there is still plenty to do though. do not archive
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 5/13/2010 9:19:24 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ch701builder(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Hey John,
Educational... YES.
I always thought that "MONEY" is what made airplanes fly. The more you spend the higher and faster it flies.
Example:
$60,000 a fairly nice 12O MPH plane
$600,000 a little bit faster plane
$6,000,000 a faster plane.
$60,000,000 .... you get the picture ...
... and so forth ....
Keith
CH701 - scratch
(invested around $4,000 so far, so my plane DOESN'T fly...)
N 38.9940
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
Divide, CO
********************************************************
From: "JohnDRead(at)aol.com" <JohnDRead(at)aol.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 7:44:23 PM
Subject: Re: How an airplane flies
Well that was educational. Let's switch to which color Scotchbrite, VGs and cheap rivets from China. Oh and let's not forget poorly flown aircraft that break their wings.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
|
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