Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Gang:



After 26 years of building, flying, experimenting, modifying, crashing, 

rebuilding, my three Kolbs, and 4,500+ hours in my personal Kolbs (not 

counting time in factory Kolbs and other Kolbs), I have discovered Kolb 

aircraft are unique.  They defy engineers and numbers.   They do things that 

are unexplainable, but they do everything well.  They have no bad habits, 

but some pilots who lack basic piloting skills, blame the Kolb  for their 

problems instead of themselves.  There is no such thing as Kolb Quit, but 

there are pilots that stall the Kolb several feet above the ground, blaming 

hard landings on an easy to fly airplane.



I encourage kolbers to experiment and test, and I learn from their efforts, 

good and bad.



Much of the experimenting that is being done today, is repetitious, but I 

encourage folks to try and improve what we have.



Going from Airtrac 600x6 to 800x6 tires on my mkIII made no change in 

performance.



Going from a Maule Tundra Tailwheel 8" pneumatic, 12 lbs, to a Maule Solid 

6", 7 lbs, made little difference in CG, but on paper neither tailwheel 

should fly.  No change in performance.  I made this change a month ago in 

prep to fly to MV.  Thought I would pick up a couple MPH.  Negative.



My mkIII has been an 85 mph cruise airplane with 65, 80, and 95 hp engines. 

The primary difference is take off and climb performance, which is extremely 

important based on the places I fly.  Cruise and max speeds are very 

similiar.



The real beauty of my mkIII is its ability haul tremendous loads, to operate 

out of extremely short strips at high altitudes, to handle violent winds and 

weather, to forgive me when I push her to the limits of both of us.



Will she ever fly faster?  Doubt it.  So far have never been out run by any 

other Kolb model except John Williamson's 912ULS Kolbra.  He was good for 

105 mph, Miss P'fer, 95 mph.  His cruise was also 10 mph faster.



Can't wait to get back in the air and exercise my right to flight.  Three 

months and counting.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Good post John.



I enjoy both my Kolbs.



Ralph B

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

I hope you get back in the air soon John.  Your Kolb is indeed very fast, both mine and the other MK III here in Miami cruise at 70 MPH.  It just feels really good there, I could do 75, but after that I just hit a wall and am burning so much more gas to and almost full power to hit 80.    I am very happy with 70 MPH at less than 4 GPH and 4200 RPM cruise, it feels perfect.  The other Kolb, Fat albert has an 80 HP 912, and cruises at almost the exact same speed as mine.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:55 am Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I hope you get back in the air soon John.  Your Kolb is indeed very fast, 

 both mine and the other MK III here in Miami cruise at 70 MPH.  It just 

 feels really good there, I could do 75, but after that I just hit a wall 

 and am burning so much more gas to and almost full power to hit 80.    I 

 am very happy with 70 MPH at less than 4 GPH and 4200 RPM cruise, it feels 

 perfect.  The other Kolb, Fat albert has an 80 HP 912, and cruises at 

 almost the exact same speed as mine.



 Mike


	




mike b/gang:



Thanks to you and all the other Kolbers who have expressed your concern 

about my recent unfortune.



Wonder what the difference is?



Right now I know four other MKIIIc's that fly like mine:



Gary Haley, 912ULS

John Bickham, 912UL

Bruce Chaisson, 912ULS

Steven Green, 912ULS



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Hello all,



I would be very interested in how fast people are able to cruise in their Kolbs.  State the model of Kolb, engine, RPM, airspeed and any other notes you may feel are revelant. I guess John has gone first, so I will go second.



MKIII, Yamaha Vector, 7000rpm, 70MPH.  My engine does not have a published RPM so I cruise between 7000 and 7300RPM at 70mph to 75mph.  If I fly faster than 75, my right door dimples in.



Jason

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		   I hope you get back in the air soon John.  Your Kolb is indeed very fast, 

 both mine and the other MK III here in Miami cruise at 70 MPH.  It just 

 feels really good there, I could do 75, but after that I just hit a wall 

 and am burning so much more gas to and almost full power to hit 80.    I 

 am very happy with 70 MPH at less than 4 GPH and 4200 RPM cruise, it feels 

 perfect.  The other Kolb, Fat albert has an 80 HP 912, and cruises at 

 almost the exact same speed as mine.



 Mike



	




mike b/gang:



Thanks to you and all the other Kolbers who have expressed your concern 

about my recent unfortune.



Wonder what the difference is?



Right now I know four other MKIIIc's that fly like mine:



Gary Haley, 912ULS

John Bickham, 912UL

Bruce Chaisson, 912ULS

Steven Green, 912ULS



john h

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Hi All,

Firestar2-- no cover on cage , no windscreen, no nose bowl. HKS700 engine Gross 750lbs -- 50 mph (at) 5000 rpm

about 2.8 gal per hr.

Frank Goodnight

Brownsville , TX

From: Jason Omelchuck <jason(at)trek-tech.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 1:36:45 PM

Subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jason Omelchuck" <jason(at)trek-tech.com (jason(at)trek-tech.com)>

Hello all,

I would be very interested in how fast people are able to cruise in their Kolbs.  State the model of Kolb, engine, RPM, airspeed and any other notes you may feel are revelant. I guess John has gone first, so I will go second.

MKIII, Yamaha Vector, 7000rpm, 70MPH.  My engine does not have a published RPM so I cruise between 7000 and 7300RPM at 70mph to 75mph.  If I fly faster than 75, my right door dimples in.

Jason

John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >  I hope you get back in the air soon John.  Your Kolb is indeed very fast, 

 >  both mine and the other MK III here in Miami cruise at 70 MPH.  It just 

 >  feels really good there, I could do 75, but after that I just hit a wall  

 >  and am burning so much more gas to and almost full power to hit 80.    I 

 >  am very happy with 70 MPH at less than 4 GPH and 4200 RPM cruise, it feels 

 >  perfect.  The other Kolb, Fat albert has an 80 HP 912, and cruises at 

 >  almost the exact same speed as mine.

 > 

 >  Mike

 > 

 > 

 mike b/gang:

 Thanks to you and all the other Kolbers who have expressed your concern 

 about my recent unfortune.

 Wonder what the difference is?

 Right now I know four other MKIIIc's that fly like mine:

 Gary Haley, 912ULS

 John Bickham, 912UL

 Bruce Chaisson, 912ULS

 Steven Green, 912ULS

 john h

Read this topic online here:

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Jason Omelchuck 	  Quote: 	
		  Hello all,



I would be very interested in how fast people are able to cruise in their Kolbs.  State the model of Kolb, engine, RPM, airspeed and any other notes you may feel are revelant. I guess John has gone first, so I will go second.



MKIII, Yamaha Vector, 7000rpm, 70MPH.  My engine does not have a published RPM so I cruise between 7000 and 7300RPM at 70mph to 75mph.  If I fly faster than 75, my right door dimples in.



Jason 	




The Kolbra cruises 80mph 5000 RPM 80hp 912

The Firestar cruises 60mph 5000 RPM 40hp 447



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Hello all....   M3X..



90 mph (at) 2900 rpm    Jabiru A-2200    Mostly cruise (at) 80 (at) 2800...



chris ambrose

M3X ? Jabiru A-2200 85 hp    137.00hrs

N327CS

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

My MK111c is indicating 73mph at 6200rpm { calm conditions ,drops off fast 

in a head wind }and about 68 at 5900 . Engine sounds happy at the higher rpm 

and runs cooler .The engine is a 503 . The 503 will turn at 6600 WOT on 

climb out. Have had just on 90mph down hill WOT , sorry can not remember 

what the RPM was.

Downunder

MK111c 503



---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Slingshot with Jabiru 2200A 80hp engine. 



The max rpm achievable in S&L flight with the current prop is 3168 though the redline is 3300 where the max hp of 80 is achieved. These numbers were with the big 800x6 tires and taken at about 1,500' density altitude.



Numbers are in attached image.

N64086 numbers.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

140.4 KB

Viewed:

12484 Time(s)

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:19 am Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

http://forums.matronics.com//files/n64086_numbers_230.jpg is a good example 

of how far you can travel by slowing up.  Drag increases with the square of 

the velocity.  With this performance and if one is not flying into a head 

wind, one could get almost ten miles per gallon further by slowing up.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:02 am Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

http://forums.matronics.com//files/n64086_numbers_230.jpg is a good example 

of how far you can travel by slowing up.  Drag increases with the square of 

the velocity.  With this performance and if one is not flying into a head 

wind, one could get almost ten miles per gallon further by slowing up.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



????????????????????????



Do not archive.



I checked out your spread sheet.    And I extended your graph to include 100

mph.   I did this by determining the hp difference in the previous two 5 mph

jumps.    There is an old statement that says,,,  to double the speed

requires 4 times the hp.  Seems that your chart is very close to this

statement.   The one thing I had never done was check the mpg  at different

power settings.  Thank you for your effort.



Boyd Young

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Nobody asked so if you are not interested in more detail about the data in my table, now is the time to move on to next post. However, I suspect one or two might be interested in the extra detail, so here it is.



FYI regarding my spreadsheet table data.



The TAS and Engine RPM were taken from actual testing, multiple times. The TAS being the average of GPS groundspeeds straight upwind and downwind. All of this was done at about 1,500' density altitude.



The HP being developed(absorbed by the prop) and the fuel burn rate (GPH) was from the Prop Selector program assuming a fixed fuel consumption rate per horsepower hour, .42 lb/hp/hr quoted by Jabiru. As it turns out, the effective pitch of my prop 64x31 is closer to 39" according to the Prop Selector.



The MPG was a simple division of MPH by GPH.



If you look carefully at the data, you may notice a wrinkle in the MPG numbers between 65 mph and 75 mph, wherein the 70 mph airspeed yields a slightly better MPG than either side of this number. Either my numbers were off a bit during the testing or this happens to be the best  speed for my Slinghsot that is a compromise between time-to-destination and fuel burn/mile.  I suspect it is the later since these numbers are averages of multiple tests on different days.



At higher density altitudes one can expect higher TAS for a given engine power output but it takes more throttle opening and higher RPM (fixed pitch prop) to get the same power output. I flew an hour plus taxi and warmup time this morning and climbed to 8,000' DA and measured a TAS of 84.5 mph at the same power setting as I see 80 mph at 1,500' DA. The rpm to achieve the same power at the higher DA I calculated to be about 2850 instead of 2712 at 1,500' DA. To maintain same power setting for a full hour, I did the climb at the same constant power setting gradually increasing rpm at a rate of about 25 rpm per 1,000' of increase in DA. After landing and refilling. I calculated my new fuel burn rate at this power setting to be about 3.5 gph. So, at altitude, I can expect about 24 mpg at about 84 mph.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

At 10:01 AM 6/2/2010, b young wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  There is an old statement that says,,,  to double the speed

 requires 4 times the hp... 	


 Actually, to double the speed (all other things being equal) it takes 8 times the power to double the speed.  It's not quite equal, of course, and thus not quite 8X as at higher speeds the AOA and thus the induced drag will be less.



 -Dana

 

 --

  Shaw's principle:

  Build a machine that a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it.    [quote][b]

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Hello All,



These are the kind of numbers that just confound me.  I am running almost 100 hp at my 70mph cruise and here is someone flying 73mph using a little less than 50hp.  What can cause that much of a disparity?  This has always fascinated me.



Jason

MKIII

Portland, OR



 	  aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz wrote: 	
		  My MK111c is indicating 73mph at 6200rpm { calm conditions ,drops off fast 

in a head wind }and about 68 at 5900 . Engine sounds happy at the higher rpm 

and runs cooler .The engine is a 503 . The 503 will turn at 6600 WOT on 

climb out. Have had just on 90mph down hill WOT , sorry can not remember 

what the RPM was.

Downunder

MK111c 503



---

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:23 am Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

FS II, "C" box 3.47:1, 3 blade 68" Kiev prop, 503DCDI,  65mph (at) 5500  rpm

  

  In a message dated 6/1/2010 2:37:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jason(at)trek-tech.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "Jason Omelchuck"    <jason(at)trek-tech.com>



Hello all,



I would be very    interested in how fast people are able to cruise in their Kolbs.  State    the model of Kolb, engine, RPM, airspeed and any other notes you may feel are    revelant. I guess John has gone first, so I will go second.



MKIII,    Yamaha Vector, 7000rpm, 70MPH.  My engine does not have a published RPM    so I cruise between 7000 and 7300RPM at 70mph to 75mph.  If I fly faster    than 75, my right door dimples in.



Jason



John Hauck    wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >  I hope you get back in the air soon    John.  Your Kolb is indeed very fast, 

 >  both mine and    the other MK III here in Miami cruise at 70 MPH.  It just 

    >  feels really good there, I could do 75, but after that I just hit a    wall 

 >  and am burning so much more gas to and almost full    power to hit 80.    I 

 >  am very happy with 70 MPH    at less than 4 GPH and 4200 RPM cruise, it feels 

 >     perfect.  The other Kolb, Fat albert has an 80 HP 912, and cruises at    

 >  almost the exact same speed as mine.

 > 

    >  Mike

 > 

 > 

 

 

 mike    b/gang:

 

 Thanks to you and all the other Kolbers who have    expressed your concern 

 about my recent unfortune.

 

    Wonder what the difference is?

 

 Right now I know four other    MKIIIc's that fly like mine:

 

 Gary Haley, 912ULS

 John    Bickham, 912UL

 Bruce Chaisson, 912ULS

 Steven Green,    912ULS

 

 john h


	






Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299600#299600===============================================

_-=    the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


  [quote][b]

Fran Losey

Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 61
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:32 am Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

I am not an expert at all here, but look at the profile of the engines you are comparing...sure looks like drag to me, all other factors being equal of course.

---

_________________
Fran Losey
N62FL (reserved)

loseyf@comcast.net

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

Another variable, sometimes a pretty big one, is the accuracy of the airspeed indicator and location of pitot and static source. I don't know how many of the quoted numbers are TAS vs IAS. In most of the experimental airplanes I've owned, and even the SLSA I owned, the ASIs are notoriously inaccurate. That is why I take the little extra trouble to find the wind direction and makes runs directly upwind and then down wind to get the average GPS groundspeed, which is TAS.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:41 pm Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

> I am not an expert at all here, but look at the profile of the engines 

you are comparing...sure looks like drag to me, all other factors being 

equal of course.

 Fran L

Fran/Gang:



My mkIII has been powered by 65, 80 and 95 hp engines.



Top speed has always been right at 95 mph.



Cruise speeds:



65 hp - 80 mph    5,800 rpm 582



80 hp - 85 mph    5,000 rpm 912UL



95 hp - 88 mph  5,000 rpm 912ULS



Kolbs are unique airplanes.  The performance of a Kolb is the direct result 

of how it is built, how tight the fabric is shrunk, and how well it is 

finished.  These are just a few of the contributing factors.  There are 

others.  Fine tuning stuff means a lot.  The prop is the only connection 

between the engine and the air.  Fine tuning a prop is critical, all 3 

blades the same pitch.



Pitch it WOT, straight and level flight, so it will just barely bump the max 

continuous rpm red line.  Works for my airplanes and my boats.  In fact, 

that is where I got the technique from 26 years ago, from selecting boat 

props.



Top speed of my US and FS were both 85 mph, 35 and 40 hp respectively, using 

the same Winter venturi type asi that requires no static source, the monster 

that screws up asi calibration.



Let me go back to fabric a second.  Kolb wing bottoms are flat when they are 

not flying.  In the air they are concave, the amount dependent on how tight 

the fabric is.  Most builders stop shrinking before the fabric starts 

pulling tubes.  I shrink to 350F, bend tubes, and my fabric is tight as a 

snare drum.  Same shrinking philosophy on all three my airplanes.  All good 

performers.  Could be I have flatter wing bottoms than most.



Again, my airplanes, my thoughts.  I'll put my mkIII up against anyone 

else's.  I like competition.



Always said my mkIII was pretty much an 85 mph airplane no matter what I did 

to it.  No matter how much hp I put on it, it would still be an 85 mph 

airplane.



I don't tune for economy.  I tune for performance and reliability.  Been 

able to back that up with actual successful flights over the years.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft.

FS II two blade warp, HKS 64 MPH (at)5300, heavy  aircraft.

 Larry

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,  which includes my email address.

 [quote]   ---

_________________
do not archive

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum