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Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P
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PS

Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 84
Location: Texas

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

What automotive plugs are used for the M14P after the wire  conversion?

  

 Does anyone have knowledge of the proper setup for the propeller  governor?

  

 Thanks

  

 Phil

  [quote][b]

_________________
Phil

bigglesusa

Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Franklin VA

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Jill at M14-P produced  a paper on setting up the prop.  Try their web site in Arizona.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PSalter(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 5:32 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P  

  

     

What automotive plugs are used for the M14P after the wire conversion?  

    

   

    

Does anyone have knowledge of the proper setup for the propeller governor?  

    

   

    

Thanks  

    

   

    

Phil  

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_________________
'Le temps mange la vie'

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:06 pm Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Phil,  

Not at my hanger right now but I remember NGK. I will have to look at the box with my spare plugs to give you the exact number. Will get it tomorrow afternoon.  

Sorry,  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SC

 Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 5:21 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P  

  

  

   

Jill at M14-P produced  a paper on setting up the prop.  Try their web site in Arizona.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PSalter(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 5:32 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P  

  

     

What automotive plugs are used for the M14P after the wire conversion?  

    

   

    

Does anyone have knowledge of the proper setup for the propeller governor?  

    

   

    

Thanks  

    

   

    

Phil  

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keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Phil,



I use NGK's. I have Dennis's kit on your former CJ. Check some previous posts for comments on gapping



Keith

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

The recommended gap is .020-.021.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

And if you ignore that advice and set the gap to around .032 like you

would do in your old Chevy, you can expect the aircraft to NOT START

when it gets hot.  Ignore the gap advice from Dennis at your own risk.

My A&P helped me put those plugs in about 2 years ago and he gapped them

at .032     I worked for over 6 months trying to figure out why the

engine would not start once it got hot.  Strangest problem I have worked

on in quite awhile.  



Long story short, it turned out to be something so simple as spark plug

gap.  



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

That's interesting, our ignition harness with the iridium plugs has no problems with the gap at the factory .032 setting.  Easiest starts (hot or cold) and best running set up I've seen....  One of our planes with this is planning to be at OSH, if you'd like to see it for yourself.  



Happy Flying,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Here's our ignition system on a Housai...



http://gallery.me.com/bdogltd#100260



Happy Flying,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

At a gap of .018 to .021 (with the much cheaper plugs that I use) along

with the 8mm Taylor Wire ignition harness that I am using from Dennis

Savareese ... It has NO problem starting hot or cold, the plugs are so

cheap that you can replace them without a second thought, and even

though I don't need to, I do it anyway every Conditional Inspection.  I

have seen and tested this installation on over a dozen M-14's.   



Not to say that Dennis's kit is any better than your kit, or vice-versa

(although his was first).  There is nothing wrong with using Iridium

plugs on an M-14, and they are without a doubt a very good spark plug.

That said, I have NO experience running them on an M-14 radial, or any

radial for that matter (and yes, I know you do).  My own PERSONAL

opinion is that due to the tendency to foul plugs due to accumulated oil

in the cylinders, which seems to be common in these engines, spark plugs

will tend to eventually foul.  That said, I would rather use a cheaper

but reliable plug and change them more often, than use a extremely long

lasting plug that is more expensive and do the opposite.  It's just a

matter of personal opinion Barry and I am not recommending one over the

other.  



That said, what gap a particular spark plug uses to achieve best

performance varies from one plug to the next and one installation to the

next.  If we really want to get maximum performance out of ANY of these

plugs, we need to think about replacing one of our mags with a

Capacitive Discharge system.  Something I am actually working on if you

are interested!  



Mark Bitterlich

--

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Hi Mark,



Thanks for your thoughts.  There is a total of over 2000 hrs. running the set up we use with zero fouling problems.  The plugs are $9/ea.  Even if you use new plugs every 100 hours (not at all necessary) that's under $200 to replace all of 'em.



FWIW,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Roger that Barry.  Thanks for the info. 



Question: You have run one engine 2000 hours on one set of plugs?

Really?  Or do you mean you have multiple sets in multiple airplanes

that in total have accumulated over 2000 hours?  Not sure how to read

what you said there, sorry.  



Rog on $9 x $18 = $162   That's still cheap compared to Russian Plugs,

that's a fact!  



A set of 18 for the ones I use costs about $35   



Just to let you know where I am coming from, let me please repeat what I

have said before on this forum, and that is that I come from a drag

racing mentality set.  In that world, we index the plugs and in most

cases pull them out and replace them after EVERY RUN!  That's typically

when running nitrous.  



However, I want to be clear to anyone and everyone that reads what I am

saying here that I am NOT claiming that the experience gained in that

world translates over to the engines we use in THIS world in every case.

In some cases FAR FROM IT!  However, old habits die hard.  For a closed

loop electronic fuel injection, computer compensated engine, I would

jump all over iridium plugs.  For a (more or less) basic WW-II aircraft

design, (and by that I mean the technology used in it, not the date it

was assembled)  I tend to look hard at what is to be gained with plugs

that cost more than 4 times than the ones I am using that already

provide the service I am looking for.  



I am not sure how to quantify or qualify the advantage to be gained

(versus the price differential) between iridium element plugs, and those

with standard designs.  I'd love to see hard data on how to go about

determining that versus non-scientific collection methods that tend to

result in personal opinions.  Mine, yours or anyone else's!    



My personal opinion is that money would be much better spent by EVERYONE

in coming up with an electronic ignition system that can be used in one

or both mags so as to avoid the problem in replacing magneto coils, or

at least reducing the number we need.  Let me say that in my experience,

fouling of spark plugs is much less an issue of the element type in the

spark plug (be it iridium, platinum, or whatever else).  Those exotic

materials usually relate more to the LIFE of the spark plug due to much

slower element erosion, than to overall performance WHEN COMPARED TO HOW

HOT THE SPARK IS TO BEGIN WITH.   



My gut feeling is that iridium plugs (or any plug) would be much more at

home with a multiple spark discharge system running at a much higher

voltage with a better ramp than what we get with mags, which is why that

is the direction I am currently headed.  



So, summation:  I am not knocking iridium plugs.  I am sure they work

GREAT!  But I feel we need a better ignition system for a really

measurable performance improvement.  



Mark Bitterlich

  



--

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

iridium plugs have the smallest cross section area from the core to the electrode wire giving it the least fowling area of all plugs.  Less places to have stuff get stuck.  NGK racing information web site talks about all their plugs.  The more electrodes the more chance for fowling.  The smaller the gap the more chance for fowling if it's going to fowl.  I found NGK iridium plugs for $7.oo on line at several places.  They work great.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Guys,

I think we are picking gnats off a dogs ass here. Its' your money. I've been

flying the Taylor wire conversion and NGK motorcycle plugs for almost 4

years now in my 50. I have yet to pull a fouled plug out when I changed

plugs each year. At ~ $35 for 18 I can buy 3.6 sets to one set of NGK

iridium plugs. Even on the lower 3 cylinders that sit and collect oil during

the 1 to 2 weeks between flying, I've yet to have a fouled plug when I

pulled them. Damp maybe yes but definitely not carbon or lead fouled like

the bottom right back plug on my spam can gets. I would change it to NGK

motorcycle plugs in a heartbeat if it were not certificated. Yeah, I know

just make it "experimental". The but is she goes in class B airspace some of

the time though.

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:15 am Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Just out of curiosity, how many people out there that read this list

server are running M-14's with automotive plugs and wires?  



Of those that run them, can anyone tell me how often they have had a

plug that failed for any reason other than dropping it on the concrete

floor?  



I'd sure like to hear some hard statistics about how many hours they

have been run, and what reason they were pulled and ho.  



Dale, I am absolutely sure that every spark plug manufacturer will

endorse their most expensive product as being the one everyone should

buy.  



Mark

 



--

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Gang,



Good discussion.  To answer Mark's questions, one plane has over 1600 hours, then several others with less.  My point here is that it's enough time to see trends and long term performance benefit.  Everything about this is positive.  Iridium plugs are a bit more expensive, but we believe with our set up has advantages of being more durable (replace less often), better spark, and better combustion.  The fact that you can leave the gap at .032 reduces "maintenance", which means you can buy them on the road and not have to set the gap, for instance.  We use a 8.5mm wire that has ultra low resistance, as mentioned previously.



Some people believe in "good enough", and that's fine.  We believe that sometimes its better to spend a bit more money up front for better long term results and reducing the long term costs.  This is how we design all of our upgrades...  Unfortunately, the market size is so small it doesn't allow for the real quantitative analysis that Mark would like (and would surely benefit us all), but we do the best with what we have.  



Happy Flying,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

The only stats I have are this.  My 52 would fowl plugs now and then and clean up 10 min into the flight. When I replaced them with iridium plugs I no longer have fowling at all. That's after 200 hrs of flying. And I changed the regular NGK's twice before that thinking it was something else. For me that's a 100% better feeling.

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Gents on the YAK list.  



I have been giving this discussion some thought and have decided I am

going to bow out as gracefully as possible.  Sorry if anyone did not

find it interesting.  What I have been thinking is this: 



Regardless of who's kit you buy.. Say from either Dennis or Barry ...

What plug you use is really up to you and is a personal choice.

Dennis's kit used to come with NGK's and I believe he was the first

person to come up with the whole idea of using high quality auto racing

wire and standard plugs, and then test it and offer it to the flying

public.  Barry now sells a kit very similar to the first one offered,

but uses different components, that includes Iridium plugs, which I

think he has stated makes it a better product, kit, whatever.   



What dawns on me here, (and should have a lot sooner than this! SORRY!)

is that just like Dennis does not have a proprietary right to be the

only one to sell the idea of using high quality automobile racing wires

to the M-14 world, just because he came up with it and marketed it

first, ... Barry does not (in my humble opinion)  have the right to

claim that using Iridium plugs makes his kit something unique either.

The discussion about which plug gets recommended by the kit maker, is

just that... A recommendation and nothing more.  The aircraft owner is

still responsible for making the decision on what wires to buy and what

plugs to use.  Either kit can be changed to use whatever plug the owner

wants to use.  Before or after it gets installed in the aircraft.  I

have NO vested interest in what type of spark plug ANYONE flies in their

aircraft!    



That said, getting into discussions like this have a tendency for a

person who SELLS a part or kit to DEFEND that kit as being better.

That's human nature and is to be expected.  It's hard not to be

defensive about something you make and sell when someone (like ME for

example)   disagrees about some of the basic premises of .... What do

I call it?  Maybe "Advertising"?  I am not sure.    



This is actually where it is easy to get into what is called a "Conflict

of Interest" and leads to why for a long time advertisement of sold

products was prohibited on this list. 



I am not bashing Barry or anyone else.  What I do think might be a good

suggestion is that people who make kits and sell them to folks on the

YAK list, ought to take any discussion of their product to a one on one

level with the person who is interested.  As in: "I sell something that

might be helpful to you, please contact off list".  Also making a list

of sold products and what they do and how they do it and posting it to

this list sounds like a good idea to me.  



However, getting in a discussion that could be deemed in some ways to be

interpreted as  "who sells the better WIZNUT... Me or the other guy" ...

should be avoided.  While the discussion of plugs, and ignition system

ideas on the YAK list is what I think the list is meant for, this

particular thread line is crossing into areas that I think should be

avoided, so .... That is what I am going to do.   



Best Regards to all, 

 



Mark

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Good discussion (I agree), but I have to add a word of polite caution here Barry.  Please do not equate what I am saying to the premise of "Good Enough".  That term is best left to those running the original wires and plugs that came in these engines, which some people are still forced to do in other countries. 



I am all about using high quality designs and components.  The wires you sell meet that description as do the ones contained in Dennis's kit.  This is exactly why I did indeed "spend a little more money up front for better long term results and reducing the long term costs".  The system I have in there right now does exactly that.  So does yours.  The only real difference that I see in actual performance parameters between the two kits is in the choice of the actual spark plug.  I believe using Iridium Plugs versus more standard designs in our engines is not a case of meeting the "Good Enough" description, but is rather more a case of "Gilding the Lily".  



For example:  How many people who own these aircraft have determined that the wiring that is in there now is "Good Enough"?  I mean the actual complete electrical wiring harness in the aircraft!  The Russian wire that I have looked at (and I am indeed an expert in THIS area Barry) is less than ideal.  It is in fact UNSAFE if MILSPEC requirements were being followed.  That does not mean it does not work.  It does mean that it is not very good.  This same premise also goes to the whole electrical power generation system, vis-à-vis the HUGE generator and all the requisite support devices required to run it versus say a good Alternator system.   I understand you believe that your choice of plugs helps to achieve better spark and better combustion.  Putting it simply, I do not believe it does to any really measurable extent.  However, I definitely agree it is more durable!  But as I have already said.... I pull my plugs at LEAST every year, and when doing so always like to just replace the darn things.  I like new.  New is good.  And since the plugs I am tossing still have plenty of life left in them at that point, I see no need to use even longer lasting plugs.  And as Doc said, this comes down to a personal choice and not one really having anything to do with "Good Enough".  I understand we have differences of views here, but that's ok too.   



I also need to again ask a question which you may have already answered, but I am still not sure of.  You said:  "One plane has over 1600 hours".  Does that mean that you have run one airplane that has run from Zero to 1600 hours with ONE SET of iridium plugs installed without changing or cleaning them during that entire 1600 hour period?  I'd also like to know the exact make and model number of the test engines you are running, so I can determine what types of mags they are using.  Why?  Because we are assuming at this point that a plug gap difference between .020 and .032 equates to better performance in the plug.  This is not necessarily correct.  Many engine issues can impact ideal gap settings.  Yes, the type of plug itself impacts this as you have implied, but so do many other things.  



Keep one other thing in mind regarding gap settings on the plugs that I personally use.  The ONLY reason that a plug gap of .020 is called for is due to STARTING requirements, not ENGINE RUNNING requirements.  My plugs were gapped to .035 for a YEAR!  THEY RAN PERFECTLY THAT WHOLE TIME.  The only problem I had was in hot STARTING.. .not in engine RUNNING.  The "booster coil" in my setup did not have enough juice to reliably fire the plug at .035    The mag itself ran perfectly at that plug gap setting.  Apples and Oranges.  



A comment:  Every set of plugs that go into any engine on this planet no matter where they were purchased or what they are intended to be used on should have the plug gap at least checked once before installation.  They may indeed not need to be "adjusted" but they should ALWAYS be checked.  They also need to be pulled and examined at every "Annual/Conditional" as any and every aircraft owner knows.  Along those lines comes carbon fouling of the actual plug threads.  This is another reason I like to use NEW plugs every year, along with a reapplication of an anti-seizing compound on the plug threads, being very careful to never get any of that crap into the combustion chamber!  Just my 2 cents.. Again.  



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Thanks Dale, that is good to know!



Mark

 



--

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P

Gang,



One of the things I have neglected to mention previously is the concept of total resistance - one of the biggest concerns of this discussion.  Our system, developed over a couple years by friends of WW working closely with gurus in high energy electronic ignition systems, provides the lowest total resistance of any upgraded ignition system for our engines that we are aware of.  In addition to the other benefits previously described, one of the biggest reasons for the Iridium plugs is it allows us to run a wider gap and, using our ultra low resistance 8.5mm wire, and still have lower resistance than the other systems out there, which makes the coils last longer.



Now, when an electronic system is developed, that will be the ticket....



Hope this helps,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

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