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Solid rivet confusion

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Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

OK, maybe I need glasses but I have been unable to find some of the info I need in Zenith's drawings or guide.  Perhaps those of you who have done the wing upgrade will help me out.



Dwg. 6ZU-1 states (paraphrased) "...install extrusion using --AD6-14 and --AD6-15 (qty 4) and --AD6-10 solid rivets"



[1] The packing list does not show any --AD-14 rivets, only --AD-15's.   I assume these are to be used on the inboard section of the top spar.  Did anyone have any trouble using the longer rivets supplied by Zenith?



[2] The outboard rivets I drilled out were all --AD5's yet it looks like Zenith supplied AD6-10's for that location.  Am I correct that I am to replace these outermost rivets with the larger diameter ones?  They also sent some AD5-10's but I think they are for the center section.  Comments?



As always I appreciate your help.



Tim Juhl

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Hi Tim,



I am at the exact stage you are discussing, but I have taken a different

path.



I decided to use bolts instead of rivets when installing the new spar cap

angle.  I will use AN4 bolts in the inner section where the original 3/6

rivets are used and AN3 bolts where the smaller rivets are used.  I already

have the correct drill and reamer for the AN4 bolts, but I have not yet

acquired a reamer for the smaller ones.   I ordered it yesterday, but A/S

seems to have them on back order.



It is necessary to move up to AN4 bolts because the original holes used for

the 3/16 rivets are too large for AN3 bolts.  They would just rattle around

in the oversized holes.  The smaller holes, 5/32, don't have a corresponding

bolt size so I will increase them to 3/16 for use with AN3 bolts.  I realize

the bolts are heavier than aluminum rivets, but I feel my skills are

adequate to install the bolts and insufficient to install the huge rivets.



If I had your exact situation I would merely order the required rivet sizes

from Aircraft Spruce or a similar vendor to meet my needs.  I was surprised

the upgrade kit had exactly the required number of solid rivets when the

first time builders have never used solid rivets before.  This compares

unfavorably with the supply of A4 and A5 Avex rivets which seems to be an

ample supply measured by the pound rather than the exact number that matches

the number of expected holes.



I know I have an attitude problem when it comes to Zenith and the Heintz

family, but I would not depend on them being around much longer to complete

my plane.  I am glad we got a "Blessed" design upgrade, but since we still

have no clue what the actual problem is that led to all the deaths I have

very little confidence the upgrade will fix the real (but still unknown)

problem.



I will just do my best to install the upgrade and then take my plane into

phase I testing.  I still have not decided whether to take it into phase II

or not.



Good luck,



Paul





--

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:36 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Hi Tim



The 3/16" solid rivets supplied in my upgrade kit were all AN470AD-6-14's 

and AN470AD-6-10's.I thought that AN470AD-6-14's were too short for the 

spar cap-spar web-spar cap doubler-extrusion joint. So, for that joint, I 

used AN470AD-6-16 that I had purchased from Spruce. I used the 

AN470AD-6-14's supplied by Zenair for the outboard section beyond the end 

of the spar cap doubler where the joint is 1/4" thinner. My Avery rivet 

length gage showed the -16's being ~1/32" too long and the -14's being 

~3/32" too short. My interpretation of the plans was to replace the 5/32" 

rivets in the spar cap beyond the spar cap doubler with 3/16" rivets, 

except for the most outboard one which was replaced with a 3/16" AN bolt.



I was never able to develop what I considered adequate skills to set the 

3/16" rivets with my 3X rivet gun. Fortunately, I was able to borrow what I 

call a "pounder" tool to set the rivets and it worked perfectly, so long as 

I didn't hit the spar with the hammer. It is possible that I would have 

been able to set Zenair's shorter rivets with my 3X gun, but I doubt that 

the shop heads would have met both the minimum diameter and minimum 

thickness specs.



Like Paul, I found that the 3/16" rivet holes in my spar caps are too large 

diameter for AN3 bolts, so I bought AN4's to attach the spar root doubler 

plate. That's my next step. If you're interested in excruciating detail, 

you are welcome to check my Kitlog.



Terry

At 02:44 PM 7/3/2010 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  OK, maybe I need glasses but I have been unable to find some of the info I 

need in Zenith's drawings or guide.  Perhaps those of you who have done 

the wing upgrade will help me out.



Dwg. 6ZU-1 states (paraphrased) "...install extrusion using --AD6-14 and 

--AD6-15 (qty 4) and --AD6-10 solid rivets"



[1] The packing list does not show any --AD-14 rivets, only --AD-15's.   I 

assume these are to be used on the inboard section of the top spar.  Did 

anyone have any trouble using the longer rivets supplied by Zenith?



[2] The outboard rivets I drilled out were all --AD5's yet it looks like 

Zenith supplied AD6-10's for that location.  Am I correct that I am to 

replace these outermost rivets with the larger diameter ones?  They also 

sent some AD5-10's but I think they are for the center section.  Comments?



As always I appreciate your comments.



Tim Juhl


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;

Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Paul



Reference your last 2 paragraphs-



I thought they knew for sure the "upgrade" would cure the "known problem". 

Are you saying the upgrade may not fix the problem and no one knows what 

exactly caused the wings to fold on the XL's?



Fritz---------do not archive

---

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion

I used a 4X gun and a 5lb bucking block of steel.  The AN470AD-6-15's set just fine.  The trick is to not pull or let off the trigger without having pressure (arm strong) against the factory head.  The bucking bar just has to touch to shop head, you don't have to press hard with the bucking bar. Once you have set a few you can hear and feel when it is set right.



The 3X gun wasn't doing a good job.  There were a couple I had to remove and reset, the 4X gun expanded the rivets much better, the 3X gun rivets came out real easy, not so with the 4X gun, it took more work to get them out and that is a good thing here.



All they sent me were the 15's and the 10's for the wing spars.  They all finished within the Mil Specs.  I think the reference to the 14's is an error in the print, call zenith or post to their zenith.aero site directly to Mathieu Heintz.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Hi Fritz,



You read me loud and clear.  As far as I know, Chris still claims there was

never anything wrong with the XL.  Nobody else has said anything to indicate

the problem has been isolated.



The FAA folks originally chose to ignore the NTSB request to ground the

fleet.  After the November breakup they went whole hog in the other

direction and insisted everyone install the "AMD" fix.  Their engineers

claimed there was a problem with the static load calculations, but they

didn't claim this problem explained the breakups.  



There is a loud group who attacks me and anyone else who says there is

something wrong.  This is a case of "If you don't like the message then

attack the messenger."



The "AMD" fix is an attempt to strengthen the wings in the hope the problem

will go away.  It reinforces the wing structure in the areas where the

separations occurred as well as any other place someone thought additional

strength and stiffness might help.  I personally hope it works.  Only time

will tell.



Paul

--

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Okay,  I've said this before, prompted by the same stuff, from the same 

parties.  I am being nice.



The original 601XL flies just fine if you are a pilot with judgment who 

recognizes and accepts the aircraft's limits and characteristics.  Ah, but 

on this forum we find "pilots" who brag about exceeding design limits, and 

on video we see idiots doing acro -- and pulling the wings off (duh), and 

other foolishness.  The real problem is the morons.  The fix is a reaction 

to the morons.  The "fact" that the original structural load testing was a 

teensy bit under whatever is, in reality, immaterial.  This is a nice little 

airplane that was designed to fly from A to B in a pleasant manner.  It is 

nothing beyond that.  Maxing g and/or airspeed near or beyond design limits 

to prove your cojones merely demonstrates stupidity.  The design is okay. 

The modifications make it more okay.  Our modified and tested airplane works 

fine -- of course, so did the unmodified airplane we had before we put 450 

hours into it.



People who have continually twisted knickers, or no pilot savvy or skills, 

are the problem, regardless of "professional experience or qualifications". 

Got that, Paul.



Karl

--------------------------------------------------

From: "fritz" <klondike(at)megalink.net>

Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:03 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion



[quote] 



 Paul



 Reference your last 2 paragraphs-



 I thought they knew for sure the "upgrade" would cure the "known problem". 

 Are you saying the upgrade may not fix the problem and no one knows what 

 exactly caused the wings to fold on the XL's?



 Fritz---------do not archive

 ---

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Gentleman, this argument is over. We'll know by next year at this time whether the "fix" is in!  If not, we hope for a good scrap aluminum price.

 Happy Fourth!

  

 Terry



 

   From: Karl Polifka <jfowler120(at)verizon.net>

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 10:06:32 PM

Subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion



--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Karl Polifka" <jfowler120(at)verizon.net (jfowler120(at)verizon.net)>



Okay,  I've said this before, prompted by the same stuff, from the same parties.  I am being nice.



The original 601XL flies just fine if you are a pilot with judgment who recognizes and accepts the aircraft's limits and characteristics.  Ah, but on this forum we find "pilots" who brag about exceeding design limits, and on video we see idiots doing acro -- and pulling the wings off (duh),  and other foolishness.  The real problem is the morons.  The fix is a reaction to the morons.  The "fact" that the original structural load testing was a teensy bit under whatever is, in reality, immaterial.  This is a nice little airplane that was designed to fly from A to B in a pleasant manner.  It is nothing beyond that.  Maxing g and/or airspeed near or beyond design limits to prove your cojones merely demonstrates stupidity.  The design is okay. The modifications make it more okay.  Our modified and tested airplane works fine -- of course, so did the unmodified airplane we had before we put 450 hours into it.



People who have continually twisted knickers, or no pilot savvy or skills, are the problem, regardless of "professional experience or qualifications". Got that, Paul.



Karl

--------------------------------------------------

From: "fritz" <klondike(at)megalink.net (klondike(at)megalink.net)>

Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 9:03 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)>

Subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion



[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "fritz" <klondike(at)megalink.net (klondike(at)megalink.net)>

 

 Paul

 

 Reference your last 2 paragraphs-

 

 I thought they knew for sure the "upgrade" would cure the "known problem". Are you saying the upgrade may not fix the problem and no one knows what exactly caused the wings to fold on the XL's?

 

 Fritz---------do not archive

 

 

 ---

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

woo--- what is your problem Karl?

Fritz   do not archive

---

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion

Thanks for the info... I appreciate all your comments.  I was planning on using a mix of rivets and bolts, assuming I can set the rivets OK with my 3x gun.  I haven't a lot of experience riveting (took an EAA class) and plan to set up a practice jig to see how it goes.  I did buy a 5 lb bucking bar which I understand should help.



The features that attracted me to the XL in the first place haven't changed.  My hope is that experience with the modified aircraft will allow all of us to fly our planes with confidence as long as we stay within the envelope, which is true of all aircraft.  I didn't mean to rekindle old arguments but we all know that we'll have to wait for some time to pass to get our answers.



Happy 4th of July!



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Paul;

         Please go away. You  certainly get the prize for being a pain in the butt! Why don't you buy a C-172  then you can bitch at a big boy.

  

 Regards,  John



CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300



Cell: 719-494-4567

Home:  303-648-3261   

  



  [quote][b]

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

I've said it before and I will repeat my statement - PILOT ERROR. You  cannot expect to fly outside the recommended limits and live. which  part of that needs more explanation?

  

 Regards,  John



CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300



Cell: 719-494-4567

Home:  303-648-3261   

  

 

  [quote][b]

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:21 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

John--- How do you have more knowlege of the aircraft  accidents than the FAA???   I don't think they came to the conclusion  of "pilot error".

  

 Just wondering why, you don't think Paul is entitled to his  opinion?

  

 Fritz-------do not archive

 [quote]   ---

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:36 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Fritz,

  

 First, NTSB investigates accidents, not  FAA.  Second, the NTSB "investigation" contains questionable assertions  that put their "investigation" in a very questionable light.  Third, there  is more to these accidents than "design flaws".  You confuse countering an  opinion with saying someone is not entitled to it.  I have also questioned  Paul's approach, in this forum and privately.   There is a mix of  causes for these accidents and there is no one size fits all -- part of why the  NTSB report is so questionable.  It would almost seem as if someone had an  agenda.  For starters, you might want to go back over the history of this  forum for the last 14 months and see how many really stupid declarations have  been made about how people fly this airplane.  Unforgiveable stupidity  sometimes ends in a smoking hole, and rightfully so.

  

 Karl

  



  From: fritz (klondike(at)megalink.net) 

 Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 6:18 PM

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion

 



 John--- How do you have more knowlege of the aircraft  accidents than the FAA???   I don't think they came to the conclusion  of "pilot error".

  

 Just wondering why, you don't think Paul is entitled to his  opinion?

  

 Fritz-------do not archive

 [quote]   ---

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Karl,  thanks for the reply.  I stand corrected for  FAA/ NTSB.   I knew better, but had a "senior moment".  I will  bow out of this discussion as I don't  want to start any "heated  arguments".   I think that after the unforunate XL accidents and  grounding, all has been said that needs to be said.

  

 Best of luck and happy flying,

 Fritz---- do not archive.

 [quote]   ---

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion

Geezers guys, you have stolen the thread from Tim and others.  This discussion is about Solid rivets.  If ya want to rant do it some where else.



The primary purpose of the site is to keep valuable BUILDING information available for new people and to assist each other in BUILDING.



Give it a rest. Think before you type OK, at least start another thread so I and others can breeze by your concerns.



do not archive

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: Solid rivet confusion

Ron---- I agree and many years ago said the same thing you have just said.



The only reason I continued it under the original heading is:  once you 

change the heading, you loose the continuity of it in a "search"---- and 

only part of the story gets told.



Have a good day.

Fritz--------- do not archive

---

Ianrat

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion

Tim I put a call through to Zenith and was told that the rivets can be between 1.2 to 1.75 bigger than the metal you are fixing. When I clamp my spar tight together the AD-14 come within specs.



Ian Rat

CH601XL

Brisbane Australia.

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion

Inrat,

Thanks for the info but can you be more specific? You lost me at 1.2 to 1.75 bigger. Are we talking about diameter, length, rivet or hole?

Chuck

Ianrat

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Solid rivet confusion

Sorry about that. Yes 1.2 to 1.75 times the Dia of the rivet.



Most people say it has to be 1.5 times the Dia this is the ideal length but Zenith state in the CONSTRUCTION STANDARDS section CS #403 page 28 the Max - Min - and Nominal settings. After setting a rivet i measures it and it was within specs.

Ian Rat

CH601XL

Brisbane Australia.

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