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ELSA

 
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: ELSA Reply with quote

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> To all.
N12AY is a Classic Trigear placarded GW 1320, has completed most of it's test flights. After 4 months of testing, I will have a complete write up soon. Note, if your Europa has been registered above 1320 lbs, it does not qualify for an E- LSA ever. For those of you who have 1300 lb registrations on your flying Europa Classic, convert it to a fixed trigear if needed, add a fixed pitch prop, and if you started with a reasonable empty weight, add some vortex generators and do some tweaking and it will allow the plane to meet the criteria of 45 Kt stall, and 120 Kts at max continuous power. (Dirty up your wheel pants to keep the speed down if necessary). The XS wing is nearly 50 lbs heavier, slightly larger, and should also be able to meet the stall speed. Problem is the empty weight is a bit high on the XS unless you are a weight zealot. If you are a weight zealot, the XS should be eligible provided you have not already registered it's gross weight as over 1320. Darn those rules.

By adding vortex generators (and I prefer adjusting the flap rig slightly down), the aircraft at 1320 lbs stalls at 45 Kts. The handling of the plane with the VGs is superb at low speed. 18 degrees deck angle, flaps up at 50 Kts indicated (Actual corrected speed is 47Kts.) Burble starts at 50, the nose starts wandering about 47, the heavy buffet begins at 45, break shortly afterwards. VGs run from the tip to 24 inches short of the wing root, and 7% chord seems to work well. Max continuous power setting speed runs with my old 914 power, wing speed kit and wheel pants only drops my top end 2-3 knots, as the Warp Drive prop is set at 29.5 degrees for 5200 static on full 38 inches power on the ground runs. You can imagine the rpm really drops when pulling it out of turbo. A 912 with 2.2 gearbox or 912S should be perfect for the LSA.

The XS style pitot static is a problem, and I had to install cockpit static to get accurate readings. I've spent a lot of time flying speed runs, experimenting with pitot tubes etc., trying to calibrate my speed indications at these low speeds. The XS pitot is quite good down to about 65 Kts indicated (indicating 3 knots high) and is dead on above 80 (I am using a Winter A/S indicator and a Blue Mountain for indications). Speed runs are done with GPS and timed runs.

I am now tweaking the flaps a tiny bit as it makes 45 knots quite controllable. Actually with a little tweak of the trailing edge, the plane would only need flaps for drag.

More to follow. Weather and workload are slowing me down.

Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations

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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject: ELSA Reply with quote

On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Bud Yerly wrote:
Quote:
If you are a weight zealot, the XS should be eligible provided you have not already registered it's gross weight as over 1320. Darn those rules.


Bud,
Thanks for the comprehensive background on making an XS into an ELSA...I take it that N12AY is Clive's airplane.
So here's a question:
...suppose one registers his XS mono w/ a FP prop and with a gross weight of 1320 as an experimental...then, later...takes it back to the shop, converts it to a fixed tri or conventional gear (w/ dirty, grimy wheel pants), adds the VGs to further slow it down, and does the requisite flight tests to show the plane's within the LSA envelope...
Can it them become an ELSA? Can you recommend an FAA contact to run this by, if you'd rather not speculate?
Thanks,
Fred

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rlborger(at)mac.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:46 pm    Post subject: ELSA Reply with quote

Fred,

That's a simple question. If it ever was NOT an LSA, for any reason, it can not be converted to an LSA. Darn those rules, again...
And watch the terms. An E-LSA is a class of aircraft where the kit manufacturer defines the aircraft to be built and it MUST be built to exactly to those specs, without deviation.
I believe what you are speaking of is an Amateur Built Experimental Aircraft which simply conforms to the LSA specifications.
Best regards,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232
http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046
Europa Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117




On Jul 20, 2010, at 17:31, Fred Klein wrote:
Quote:

On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Bud Yerly wrote:
Quote:
If you are a weight zealot, the XS should be eligible provided you have not already registered it's gross weight as over 1320. Darn those rules.


Bud,
Thanks for the comprehensive background on making an XS into an ELSA...I take it that N12AY is Clive's airplane.
So here's a question:
...suppose one registers his XS mono w/ a FP prop and with a gross weight of 1320 as an experimental...then, later...takes it back to the shop, converts it to a fixed tri or conventional gear (w/ dirty, grimy wheel pants), adds the VGs to further slow it down, and does the requisite flight tests to show the plane's within the LSA envelope...
Can it them become an ELSA? Can you recommend an FAA contact to run this by, if you'd rather not speculate?
Thanks,
Fred

Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:21 pm    Post subject: ELSA Reply with quote

Fred
I don’t think you can from what I read. The criteria call, as I’m sure you know, for a fixed or ground adjustable prop and in addition to other items includes 660lbs max take off wgt. That would be a tough one to meet, weight zealot or not. I also read the following: Here is a recent statement issued by members of the ASTM committee for Light Sport Aircraft that should give us all pause:

"Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:[deletia]9 see definition in part 1 FAR page5)

This verbiage clearly says that an aircraft must meet all the criteria called out in the definition of an LSA at the time of its original certification AND CONTINUOUSLY thereafter.

If you fly just once out of criteria it cannot be an LSA.
Tough language!
Fred, you don’t want to go that slow anyway!
Jerry


From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 3:31 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ELSA



On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Bud Yerly wrote:




If you are a weight zealot, the XS should be eligible provided you have not already registered it's gross weight as over 1320. Darn those rules.


Bud,



Thanks for the comprehensive background on making an XS into an ELSA...I take it that N12AY is Clive's airplane.



So here's a question:



...suppose one registers his XS mono w/ a FP prop and with a gross weight of 1320 as an experimental...then, later...takes it back to the shop, converts it to a fixed tri or conventional gear (w/ dirty, grimy wheel pants), adds the VGs to further slow it down, and does the requisite flight tests to show the plane's within the LSA envelope...



Can it them become an ELSA? Can you recommend an FAA contact to run this by, if you'd rather not speculate?



Thanks,



Fred

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garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:28 pm    Post subject: ELSA Reply with quote

It is my understanding that any plane, if it meets the LSA criterion (speed, stall, weight, complexity, etc.), can be flown “as an LSA”, by a pilot operating that plane with an LSA pilots license.

Garry Stout


From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 6:46 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ELSA



Fred,


That's a simple question. If it ever was NOT an LSA, for any reason, it can not be converted to an LSA. Darn those rules, again...



And watch the terms. An E-LSA is a class of aircraft where the kit manufacturer defines the aircraft to be built and it MUST be built to exactly to those specs, without deviation.



I believe what you are speaking of is an Amateur Built Experimental Aircraft which simply conforms to the LSA specifications.



Best regards,
Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232

http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046

Europa Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX 76208

Home: 940-497-2123

Cel: 817-992-1117



















On Jul 20, 2010, at 17:31, Fred Klein wrote:





On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Bud Yerly wrote:




If you are a weight zealot, the XS should be eligible provided you have not already registered it's gross weight as over 1320. Darn those rules.


Bud,



Thanks for the comprehensive background on making an XS into an ELSA...I take it that N12AY is Clive's airplane.



So here's a question:



...suppose one registers his XS mono w/ a FP prop and with a gross weight of 1320 as an experimental...then, later...takes it back to the shop, converts it to a fixed tri or conventional gear (w/ dirty, grimy wheel pants), adds the VGs to further slow it down, and does the requisite flight tests to show the plane's within the LSA envelope...



Can it them become an ELSA? Can you recommend an FAA contact to run this by, if you'd rather not speculate?



Thanks,



Fred

Quote:
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[quote][b]


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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: ELSA Reply with quote

On Jul 20, 2010, at 4:20 PM, Jerry Rehn wrote:
Quote:
other items includes 660lbs max take off wgt.


...sounds like a deal breaker vis a vis our Europae...
do not archive

[quote][b]


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