Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

bob.kravis(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:13 am Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

I recently stumbled on this http://www.ultralitetoys.com/ and wondered if anybody had any experience of thoughts about it.  There are pictures of it if you click the link near the bottom of the page.  They list a model for my Firefly.  [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Here are pictures of the trim used on the FSII, which worked very well. After I mow the yard this morning, I will be putting the controls back in the aircraft later today, and may get far enough along to reinstall the trim system. If I do, I'll post some detailed pictures. 



http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/FSII%20Hot%20Box.html



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:38 am Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 09:13:25 -0400

From: Bob Kravis <bob.kravis(at)gmail.com>

 	  Quote: 	

I recently stumbled on this http://www.ultralitetoys.com/ and wondered if 

anybody had any experience of thoughts about it.  There are pictures of it 

if you click the link near the bottom of the page.  They list a model for my 

Firefly. 

 	  Quote: 	

Bob,

There is not much need for a trim on the elevator if the FireFly is trimmed 

out at normal load and cruise speed.  If one has to hold excessive amounts 

of stick off of center under these conditions it is best to raise or lower 

the horizontal stabilizer to center the stick.

If further trim is desired it is a much lighter way to go is to use a simple 

bungee or spring off the rudder horn on the control stick.  How this can be 

done can be seen at:

http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly57.html

Other information on how to trim out the FireFly can be found at (index):

http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly.html

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

bob.kravis(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Yes, thank you Jack.  I turned to your website first (again, again) and saw how you had effected an in flight trim system.  It was just the one-stop-solution that I found appealing.Bob

 On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 09:13:25 -0400

 From: Bob Kravis <bob.kravis(at)gmail.com (bob.kravis(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 I recently stumbled on this http://www.ultralitetoys.com/ and wondered if

 anybody had any experience of thoughts about it.  There are pictures of it

 if you click the link near the bottom of the page.  They list a model for my

 Firefly.

 >

Bob,

 There is not much need for a trim on the elevator if the FireFly is trimmed

 out at normal load and cruise speed.  If one has to hold excessive amounts

 of stick off of center under these conditions it is best to raise or lower

 the horizontal stabilizer to center the stick.

 If further trim is desired it is a much lighter way to go is to use a simple

 bungee or spring off the rudder horn on the control stick.  How this can be

 done can be seen at:

 http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly57.html

 Other information on how to trim out the FireFly can be found at (index):

 http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly.html

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

[b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Most of the time, dare I say, almost all the time you will  be flying at one speed which is the most comfortable for you and the airplane. I  have found the sweet spot for my Firestar and it is at 5300 rpm and about 62 MPH  (HKS 700 E).  I just sent a drawing by Kolb on how to install a trim tab.  What you do is make it out of Lexan, and make it bigger than what you need. Try  it out, and if there is too much tab, draw a line with a marker, trim it with  tin shears and take it up again. Keep doing it until you find the sweet spot.  Then if you are going somewhere and want to climb to altitude, you have the  choice of pulling the stick back or giving it more throttle. Mine at  full sustainable throttle climbs at about 250 fpm. You want to descend,  throttle back and your descent is nice and gradual, and the speed is about the  same. 

  

 Yeah, there is no doubt that you can put all that stuff on  the plane and $125. isn't bad. The other costs you a bit of time flying and  experimenting, but it doesn't cost anything. I have been trying to think why I  would want a fully adjustable trim tab, and I have to admit, for me it isn't  necessary or even desired. Like the man says " Your mileage may  differ". 

  

 Larry

  

  

  

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the  forwarding history, which includes my email address.

   [quote][b]

_________________
do not archive

bob.kravis(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Thank you Larry.  Jack Hart had similar advice.  I've saved $125  ;-)Bob



On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)> wrote:

 [quote]       Most of the time, dare I say, almost all the time you will  be flying at one speed which is the most comfortable for you and the airplane. I  have found the sweet spot for my Firestar and it is at 5300 rpm and about 62 MPH  (HKS 700 E).  I just sent a drawing by Kolb on how to install a trim tab.  What you do is make it out of Lexan, and make it bigger than what you need. Try  it out, and if there is too much tab, draw a line with a marker, trim it with  tin shears and take it up again. Keep doing it until you find the sweet spot.  Then if you are going somewhere and want to climb to altitude, you have the  choice of pulling the stick back or giving it more throttle. Mine at  full sustainable throttle climbs at about 250 fpm. You want to descend,  throttle back and your descent is nice and gradual, and the speed is about the  same. 

  

 Yeah, there is no doubt that you can put all that stuff on  the plane and $125. isn't bad. The other costs you a bit of time flying and  experimenting, but it doesn't cost anything. I have been trying to think why I  would want a fully adjustable trim tab, and I have to admit, for me it isn't  necessary or even desired. Like the man says " Your mileage may  differ". 

  

 Larry

  

  

  

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the  forwarding history, which includes my email address.

    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




[b]

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:22 pm Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Bob

  

 This is Ted Woodall's kit. He flys a Kolb firestar and a Cessna 180. He is a retired Lear jet pilot and like his planes trimmed. I understand the kit is about at cost because of the high cost of the bowden cable. If he could find lower cost source for the cable he could sell the kit for less. Sounds like a good product.

   

 Rick Neilsen

 1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 

 On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Bob Kravis <bob.kravis(at)gmail.com (bob.kravis(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]I recently stumbled on this http://www.ultralitetoys.com/ and wondered if anybody had any experience of thoughts about it.  There are pictures of it if you click the link near the bottom of the page.  They list a model for my Firefly.  	  Quote: 	
		  





get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

When I had my Original Firestar ole N447EB I thought an adjustable elevator trim tab was a safety feature so if the up Elevator cable ever failed  I could still land my airplane with the set up I made simple and very effective I think I have posted pics of this setup in the photo share

   

 

  

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:35 am Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

 	  Quote: 	
		  There is not much need for a trim on the elevator if the FireFly is trimmed


	


out at normal load and cruise speed.



I have one of these trim kits in my parts box. The PO of my FS I suggested

that I not use it as it wasn't needed.



My plane is down for recovering.



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

gtaylor35918(at)roadrunne
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

One of the advantages I see of having a inflight adjustable trim is being 

able to fly at any power setting (above stall speed of course) in straight 

and level flight hands free. I have about an hour and a half of flight time 

on my original five spar FS, and I weigh about 220 and I have to use a 

little back pressure to stay level. I think I will invest in a in flight 

trim, but future testing will tell the tale.

Thanks, Greg

---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

I have fixed aluminum trim tabs on my UltraStar (the plane wants to dive without them).  I have it trimmed for around 40mph, which I figure is conceivably survivable if I lose elevator control (not likely, I admit).  I also have a bungee to pull the stick forward, with a rope through a jam cleat.  Pull the rope and cleat it, and I have down trim for more speed or to compensate for fuel burned (the tank's forward of the CG.



 Picture here:

 <http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v486/flyparafan/Kolb/?action=view&current=elevator_trim.jpg>



 The bungee (the two black and white striped lines) is attached to the rear of the elevator pushrod, pulling it (and the stick) forward.  Doesn't get much simpler.



 -Dana

 --

  CanYouFixTheSpaceBarOnMyKeyboard?    [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Starting to make some progress on the FSII, got the controls in today including the trim system. Here's how the trim works: welded a big flat washer to the front left side of the seat structure. Then bolt on a nylon washer and then the trim lever, made by welding some 3/16" round rod from Lowe's to a flat washer. The cable enters a standard throttle cable sheath and then loops behind the Hot Box and back to the front of the airplane, loops again and goes to the bottom of the control stick via a spring. I welded up a small attachment for the bottom of the stick for the spring to hook to. 



Pulling up on the lever tensions the spring, pushing the lever down releases it. Once the airplane is somewhere close to being trimmed, this will lock it in. The pictures show the spring under tension. 



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Trim1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

107.38 KB

Viewed:

13482 Time(s)

Trim2.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

124.47 KB

Viewed:

13482 Time(s)

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Nice work Richard, when I rebuild Zulu Delta, I may have to borrow your ideas. If you prepare plans, I'll be the first in line to buy them, hint, hint. :-}



Rick Girard



 On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 Starting to make some progress on the FSII, got the controls in today including the trim system. Here's how the trim works: welded a big flat washer to the front left side of the seat structure. Then bolt on a nylon washer and then the trim lever, made by welding some 3/16" round rod from Lowe's to a flat washer. The cable enters a standard throttle cable sheath and then loops behind the Hot Box and back to the front of the airplane, loops again and goes to the bottom of the control stick via a spring. I welded up a small attachment for the bottom of the stick for the spring to hook to.

  

 Pulling up on the lever tensions the spring, pushing the lever down releases it. Once the airplane is somewhere close to being trimmed, this will lock it in. The pictures show the spring under tension.

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308447#308447

 

 

 

 

 Attachments:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/trim1_226.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/trim2_175.jpg

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

 	  rickofudall wrote: 	
		  Nice work Richard, when I rebuild Zulu Delta, I may have to borrow your ideas. If you prepare plans, I'll be the first in line to buy them, hint, hint. :-}

 

 [b] 	




You just saw them.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

My Slingshot has a fixed aluminum elevator trim tab on the right side elevator per plans, but also has an electric in-flight adjustable trim tab on the left side elevator. I only need to change trim in-flight from neutral when in long extended climb at full power or when I want to fly very slowly with some flaperon applied. Since the elevator forces are not heavy, changing the trim is not actually required but does relieve the small amount of force on the stick. 



At normal cruise, no in-flight trim required at all, though a very slight forward bias develops when my fuel tanks get low enough that I should be landing anyway. I would not bother with the additional weight and cost if I was building a FS, or SS.



As you can see in the attached photo, my in-flight adjustable trim tab is in a near perfectly neutral position which is where it stays 99% of the time.

Trim Tab lower res.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

349.15 KB

Viewed:

13461 Time(s)

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:25 am Post subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly

Bob here is the outstanding adjustable trim kit that I put on my KXP in 1992 and it was still working perfectly 9 years later when I sold it . I could set the throtle at any rpm and adjust the trim to fly hands of so i could take pictures it cost me$125 then and It has gone up considerably but what a ine unit I am building a firefly now and intend to install one on it ! J http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/ranstrimsys.php ust my 2 cents and worth what ye paid . Chris 



Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly  



 

   From: Bob Kravis <bob.kravis(at)gmail.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 9:13:25 AM

Subject: Adjustable in-flight trim kit for Firefly



I recently stumbled on this http://www.ultralitetoys.com/ and wondered if anybody had any experience of thoughts about it.  There are pictures of it if you click the link near the bottom of the page.  They list a model for my Firefly. [quote][b][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum