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Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

This is on a 503 rotax.

My Tympanium voltage regulator went bad so I replaced it with a Key West regulator.  I had the 12VDC output wire from the old tympanium regulator connected to the starter side of the master contactor so This is where I connected the Key West 12V DC output wire.  My Hobbs meter is also connected to the same terminal on the starter side of the master contactor.



I noticed my Hobbs kept running when the master is off.  I disconnected all the wires on the Key west and checked for voltage.  There is 4.3 volts DC between the key west ground terminal and 12V DC output terminal.  Is it normal to have some residual voltage in the Key west?



I guess I need to move the output wire from the key west regulator to the battery + terminal so that 4.3 volts doesn't touch the hobbs wire??  Am I on the right track?

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:36 pm Post subject: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

Tom, I have the Key West on my 582, no such current or problem. Does your master contactor have a built in diode across the switch terminals? If it does I'd suggest it has probably failed. Have you checked the output side of the Key West to make sure there is no AC leakage coming out of the DC side? Do you have a 22,000 uf capacitor on the positive line coming out of the regulator? If none of these suggestions help you might want to consider taking the problem to the Aeroelectric Connection here on Matronics. 



Rick Girard



On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)>

 

 This is on a 503 rotax.

 My Tympanium voltage regulator went bad so I replaced it with a Key West regulator.  I had the 12VDC output wire from the old tympanium regulator connected to the starter side of the master contactor so This is where I connected the Key West 12V DC output wire.  My Hobbs meter is also connected to the same terminal on the starter side of the master contactor.

  

 I noticed my Hobbs kept running when the master is off.  I disconnected all the wires on the Key west and checked for voltage.  There is 4.3 volts DC between the key west ground terminal and 12V DC output terminal.  Is it normal to have some residual voltage in the Key west?

  

 I guess I need to move the output wire from the key west regulator to the battery + terminal so that 4.3 volts doesn't touch the hobbs wire??  Am I on the right track?

 

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307711#307711

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

Rick, thanks for the suggestions.  Yes, there is a diode on the master contactor.  It could be bad but I can't figure out how that would make the voltage regulator put out 4.3 volts when it is disconnected from everything?



I have checked the voltage with the engine running.  The two AC wires from the engine produce 35V DC at 3000 RPM and 70V DC at 6000 RPM.  The output terminal on the Key west produces 14V DC at all RPMs.  This is all normal.



There is no mention of a 22,000 uf capacitor anywhere in the Key West instructions or schematic.



The only thing I did different than the instructions is to connect the voltage regulator out put wire to the starter side of the master contactor instead of directly to the battery positive terminal.  I did this so the voltage regulator would be off line when the master switch is off.  The problem is this location connects my hobbs to the output of the voltage regulator which runs the hobbs when the master is switched off as well as when it is on.



I think I will connect the voltage regulator output wire directly to the battery positive terminal like the Key West schematic shows and see what happens?



I'm just wondering if it is normal to have a few volts (4.3 V DC) from the voltage regulator output terminal when it is completely disconnected from everything except my multimeter.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

No, somehow you're battery has got to be back feeding through the contactor, I think.As regards the capacitor on the hot lead of the regulator. See 18.5 in the Installation Manual. Rotax, and others, use it as a load when the system runs without a battery. The battery performs the function of a load when it is installed. Rotax doesn't show the other use of the cap which is a filter to clean up the electrical output. What the Key West does is rectify the AC output by chopping off one side of the AC sine wave. The DC output then becomes a fast rising pulse varying between 0 and 14 volts positive, the diode bridge as I say having cut off the the 0 to 14 volt negative side of the AC. This rectified signal is kind of trashy and it is this trash that the capacitor leaks to ground. It will improve your DC voltage if you run radios or any sensitive electronics. Rat Shack used to sell an alternator noise kit that included a big cap and an inductor coil. When the alternator output was run through the two of them the cap killed the rising and falling alternator whine and coil killed the clicking noise put out by the old mechanical regulators. This was back in the days when car stereos were first being installed in cars and their power supplies weren't as sophisticated as they are today.

 I think you're on the right track to switch your hobbs some other way.

Rick Girard

PS If you do decide to install a filter cap you want an electrolytic type and make sure you get the polarity correct. If you wire it backward it'll blow up. They also store a charge for a long time, weeks at least be sure to ground it out if you have to disconnect it. 

 

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)>

 

 Rick, thanks for the suggestions.  Yes, there is a diode on the master contactor.  It could be bad but I can't figure out how that would make the voltage regulator put out 4.3 volts when it is disconnected from everything?

  

 I have checked the voltage with the engine running.  The two AC wires from the engine produce 35V DC at 3000 RPM and 70V DC at 6000 RPM.  The output terminal on the Key west produces 14V DC at all RPMs.  This is all normal.

  

 There is no mention of a 22,000 uf capacitor anywhere in the Key West instructions or schematic.

 

 The only thing I did different than the instructions is to connect the voltage regulator out put wire to the starter side of the master contactor instead of directly to the battery positive terminal.  I did this so the voltage regulator would be off line when the master switch is off.  The problem is this location connects my hobbs to the output of the voltage regulator which runs the hobbs when the master is switched off as well as when it is on.

  

 I think I will connect the voltage regulator output wire directly to the battery positive terminal like the Key West schematic shows and see what happens?

 

 I'm just wondering if it is normal to have a few volts (4.3 V DC) from the voltage regulator output terminal with it is completely disconnected from everything except my multimeter.

 

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307724#307724

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 http://forums.matronics.com

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

Rick, here's an update on my Key West.  This AM I hooked it back up to the starter side of the master contactor (same terminal that the hobbs is connected to) and turned the master on for about a minute then off.



The hobbs continued to run and my multimeter showed 4.3 volts on the out put terminal of the key West regulator.



After 60 seconds the hobbs stopped running and the Key west output was down to 2.5 volts and dropping slowly.



My theory now is that the Key West regulator does hold a slight residual voltage.  I don't know why, maybe it is needed in applications without a battery where the alternator needs that voltage to be excited to start working.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

Tom, I would absolutely bet that putting in the filter cap would stop this non sense. I've never bothered to check the output of the Key West beyond verifying that it put out DC power at 14 V +/- .2 volts when I finished rewiring the plane. You have an interesting problem. I bet Bob Nukolls at the Aeroelectric Connection could help you understand and identify what is going on far better than me.

B & C Specialty Products has the cap I used (about $15 IIRC)

 http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx

Rick Girard



On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)>

  

 Rick, here's an update on my Key West.  This AM I hooked it back up to the starter side of the master contactor (same terminal that the hobbs is connected to) and turned the master on for about a minute then off.

  

 The hobbs continued to run and my multimeter showed 4.3 volts on the out put terminal of the key West regulator.

 

 After 60 seconds the hobbs stopped running and the Key west output was down to 2.5 volts and dropping slowly.

 

 My theory now is that the Key West regulator does hold a slight residual voltage.  I don't know why, maybe it is needed in applications without a battery where the alternator needs that voltage to be excited to start working.

  

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307775#307775

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

Tom, As I was looking up the answer to Ron Pagoris' question about the 91X ignition grounding I found the following in both the 912 and 914 Installation manuals concerning the use of a capacitor in the rectifier circuit 



"A capacitor of at least 22,000 uf / 25 V must is necessary to protect the correct function of regulator and to flatten voltage. The regulator is not designed to store any electrical charge. If for any reason the battery or bus system is disconnected from the regulator while the engine is running (i.e. the master switch is shut off) the capacitor will safely absorb and dissipate the electrical charge produced by the generator. Otherwise the regulator would be damaged."

 

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] Tom, I would absolutely bet that putting in the filter cap would stop this non sense. I've never bothered to check the output of the Key West beyond verifying that it put out DC power at 14 V +/- .2 volts when I finished rewiring the plane.  You have an interesting problem. I bet Bob Nukolls at the Aeroelectric Connection could help you understand and identify what is going on far better than me.

B & C Specialty Products has the cap I used (about $15 IIRC)

  http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx

Rick Girard

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)>

   

 Rick, here's an update on my Key West.  This AM I hooked it back up to the starter side of the master contactor (same terminal that the hobbs is connected to) and turned the master on for about a minute then off.

   

 The hobbs continued to run and my multimeter showed 4.3 volts on the out put terminal of the key West regulator.

 

 After 60 seconds the hobbs stopped running and the Key west output was down to 2.5 volts and dropping slowly.

 

 My theory now is that the Key West regulator does hold a slight residual voltage.  I don't know why, maybe it is needed in applications without a battery where the alternator needs that voltage to be excited to start working.

   

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307775#307775

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


 



[b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

Crud, Tom, I hit the send button to soon. Sorry.Now obviously the rectifier regulators we're talking about here are not the same as the Key West which requires no dummy load, i.e. can be used without a battery, but the use of a capacitor is pretty well explained in the 91X IM and I wanted to share it with you.

 As I said, I run a capacitor of this size on my Key West regulated 582 for the reasons stated, "to flatten voltage" (I guess this is Austro German manual speak for cleaning up the regulator output. :-} ). Adding a second layer of protection to protect the Key West is just the icing on the cake.

 



Rick



On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] Tom, As I was looking up the answer to Ron Pagoris' question about the 91X ignition grounding I found the following in both the 912 and 914 Installation manuals concerning the use of a capacitor in the rectifier circuit  



"A capacitor of at least 22,000 uf / 25 V must is necessary to protect the correct function of regulator and to flatten voltage. The regulator is not designed to store any electrical charge. If for any reason the battery or bus system is disconnected from the regulator while the engine is running (i.e. the master switch is shut off) the capacitor will safely absorb and dissipate the electrical charge produced by the generator. Otherwise the regulator would be damaged." 



 

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Tom, I would absolutely bet that putting in the filter cap would stop this non sense. I've never bothered to check the output of the Key West beyond verifying that it put out DC power at 14 V +/- .2 volts when I finished rewiring the plane.   You have an interesting problem. I bet Bob Nukolls at the Aeroelectric Connection could help you understand and identify what is going on far better than me.

B & C Specialty Products has the cap I used (about $15 IIRC)

   http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx

Rick Girard

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)>

    

 Rick, here's an update on my Key West.  This AM I hooked it back up to the starter side of the master contactor (same terminal that the hobbs is connected to) and turned the master on for about a minute then off.

    

 The hobbs continued to run and my multimeter showed 4.3 volts on the out put terminal of the key West regulator.

 

 After 60 seconds the hobbs stopped running and the Key west output was down to 2.5 volts and dropping slowly.

 

 My theory now is that the Key West regulator does hold a slight residual voltage.  I don't know why, maybe it is needed in applications without a battery where the alternator needs that voltage to be excited to start working.

    

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307775#307775

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


 



	






 [b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

 	  Quote: 	
		  As I said, I run a capacitor of this size on my Key West regulated 582 for the reasons stated, "to flatten voltage" (I guess this is Austro German manual speak for cleaning up the regulator output. :-} ). Adding a second layer of protection to protect the Key West is just the icing on the cake. 	




Rick, I know what you mean about the Rotax manual translation.  Sometimes it is not readily apparent what it is saying.



My key west seems to be operating well to charge the battery.  My kit fox is pretty bare bones.  The only electrical accessory is the starter.  My radio is a hand held not hardwired to the planes electrical system.



I did notice more that normal static from received transmissions last flight but attributed it to the sender having a bad radio.  I will install the capacitor if that continues.  Thanks for the suggestion.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:09 am Post subject: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax

Tom, Happy to help. You can repay me if you wish by taking a flight over the ridges in to the Yakima River Valley. I lived on the west side of the Cascades for 28 years. Yeah, I was one of those dreaded 206ers. :-} When I got my private ticket my flying club required a mountain checkout ride with an instructor to be able to take a club airplane through Snoqualmie pass over to Ellensberg. That checkout was the only time I ever made it. I always wanted to make that flight up over the Umptanum (sp?) ridges and passes. I thought a return trip through White Pass back out to Centralia would be a lot of fun, too. Now that I've moved back to Kansas I probably won't ever get to do it. Oh, well. Hope you have fun with the Kitfox, it's almost as cool as a Kolb Mk III. :-}

Rick



On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 7:39 AM, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)>

  

 

 > As I said, I run a capacitor of this size on my Key West regulated 582 for the reasons stated, "to flatten voltage" (I guess this is Austro German manual speak for cleaning up the regulator output. :-} ). Adding a second layer of protection to protect the Key West is just the icing on the cake.

  

 

 Rick, I know what you mean about the Rotax manual translation.  Sometimes it is not readily apparent what it is saying.

 

 My key west seems to be operating well to charge the battery.  My kit fox is pretty bare bones.  The only electrical accessory is the starter.  My radio is a hand held not hardwired to the planes electrical system.

 

 I did notice more that normal static from received transmissions last flight but attributed it to the sender having a bad radio.  I will install the capacitor if that continues.  Thanks for the suggestion.

 

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307908#307908

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

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