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Alternative Engines

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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: Alternative Engines

(Previous thread name: Corvair install)  

   

<<  IF a guy were inclined to go with an alternative engine (a non-Rotax OEM engine) …  >>  

   

Kolb Friends –  

   

It’s always interesting to hear the chat about new “alternative” engine ideas – we’ve seen several candidates mentioned over the past few years.  Usually, the collective wisdom of this List comes back with advice that suggests that the most reliable engines are ones that have been around for awhile, and have proven themselves in the fleet of already-flying airplanes.  Good advice, for sure, but …  

   

There is a new, start-up aircraft engine company called Viking Aircraft Engines that I am very interested in watching how its development goes.  They’re developing a new engine aimed at the Light Sport Aircraft market, and the engine is based on a Honda 4-cylinder engine.  Has anyone seen these ads in EAA’s Sport Pilot magazine?  Claims are 110 hp, from an engine “about the same weight” as the venerable Rotax-912S.  The guy heading up this effort is Jan Eggenfellner, who’s been converting Subaru engines for Experimental aircraft for decades – he definitely comes with the right background and lots of experience.  They’ve developed a PSRU for this new Viking engine, and it’s said operate in the same RPM range as the 912.  Supposed to be priced “competitively” with the 912 also.  

   

This venture could be successful where other “alternative” engines have failed, primarily because of Honda’s global reputation for making excellent engines.  This could also contribute to an affordable product that comes from economy of volume – Honda makes zillions of these little engines.  All we need is the right guy to design and adapt a good redrive on it (and a few other details) to make it compatible for aircraft use.    

   

I hope he succeeds – it would be nice to give Rotax a bit of worthy competition!  I’ll be watching …  

   

Dennis Kirby  

Mark-3, 912ul  

Sandia Park, NM  

do not archive  

   

      [quote][b]

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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:45 am Post subject: Alternative Engines

They’ve developed a PSRU for this new Viking engine, and it’s said operate  in the same RPM range as the 912.  Supposed to be priced “competitively”  with the 912 also.

  

 The thought that comes to mind is that "competitively"  means close to the same. Then of course you need a "good redrive" and so on. If  the price isn't substantially cheaper or the weight substantially less, what is  the point? Granted the cost of a 912 is shocking, but so is a HKS compared to a  503, the lure here is the reliability and longer rebuild requirement. Perhaps  someday we will have a better alternative, but it isn't today and won't be any  cheaper I am thinking.

  

 Larry

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the  forwarding history, which includes my email address.

   [quote][b]

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Alternative Engines

I saw this engine at Sun and Fun.  I hope it succeeds as Honda engines are very reliable, technologically advanced, and run forever.  The Honda engine also has fuel injection which would be a huge improvement over Rotax.  



The problem is here, there are HUGE stresses on the Re-drive unit of auto conversions, or any piston engine.  The piston pulses being transmitted to the re-drive gears make even the largest and strongest gearboxes fail over time.  Rotax solved this with their Dog system, which allows some slip on every power pulse instead of transmitting it through the gears.  Rotax came up with this over 20 years ago...  The Subaru auto conversion people never figure this out, and they are on re drive design number 3 I believe, and they keep having failures.  Re-drives have been a major failure point on every auto conversion ever done.  If the same people that made the Subaru conversion are doing the Honda conversion, I do not hold out much hope.  The problem and the solution have been known for many years, and they still have not done what is needed to fix it.  Rotax addressed and fixed this problem almost a quarter century ago, which is why we are all flying overpriced Rotax engines.



Mike

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rmurrill(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:40 am Post subject: Alternative Engines

Eigenfeller is for real.  I have watched the development of this engine for a while and it may well corner the 100hp experimental market over the next 5 years.  It is about $10K now , alittle lower if you supply a core.  Engine is based on the Honda FIT and is the same engine in there large outboard marine engines and is in now one of the standard engines in one of the road race classes.  Years of Honda development for light weight, high performance, long life engine.  He has canted the engine sideways, made a new oil pan, installed his gear reducer much like the Suburus and built a dual computer dual battery system to run the timing and EFI.  The computer maps are his customized version for aircraft use...and no catalytic converter feedback.  Much like the hundreds maybe thousands of 4 and 6 cylinder Subes he has sold.



Hp is something like 110 and installed weight  is claimed on the order of 30 lbs more than 912.



Bob

 

---- "Kirby wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   (Previous thread name: Corvair install)

 

  

 

 <<  IF a guy were inclined to go with an alternative engine (a non-Rotax

 OEM engine) ...  >>

 

  

 

 Kolb Friends -

 

  

 

 It's always interesting to hear the chat about new "alternative" engine

 ideas - we've seen several candidates mentioned over the past few years.

 Usually, the collective wisdom of this List comes back with advice that

 suggests that the most reliable engines are ones that have been around

 for awhile, and have proven themselves in the fleet of already-flying

 airplanes.  Good advice, for sure, but ...

 

  

 

 There is a new, start-up aircraft engine company called Viking Aircraft

 Engines that I am very interested in watching how its development goes.

 They're developing a new engine aimed at the Light Sport Aircraft

 market, and the engine is based on a Honda 4-cylinder engine.  Has

 anyone seen these ads in EAA's Sport Pilot magazine?  Claims are 110 hp,

 from an engine "about the same weight" as the venerable Rotax-912S.  The

 guy heading up this effort is Jan Eggenfellner, who's been converting

 Subaru engines for Experimental aircraft for decades - he definitely

 comes with the right background and lots of experience.  They've

 developed a PSRU for this new Viking engine, and it's said operate in

 the same RPM range as the 912.  Supposed to be priced "competitively"

 with the 912 also.

 

  

 

 This venture could be successful where other "alternative" engines have

 failed, primarily because of Honda's global reputation for making

 excellent engines.  This could also contribute to an affordable product

 that comes from economy of volume - Honda makes zillions of these little

 engines.  All we need is the right guy to design and adapt a good

 redrive on it (and a few other details) to make it compatible for

 aircraft use.  

 

  

 

 I hope he succeeds - it would be nice to give Rotax a bit of worthy

 competition!  I'll be watching ...

 

  

 

 Dennis Kirby

 

 Mark-3, 912ul

 

 Sandia Park, NM

 

 do not archive

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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:09 pm Post subject: Alternative Engines

On 9/7/2010 12:19 PM, Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 (Previous thread name: Corvair install)



 << IF a guy were inclined to go with an alternative engine (a 

 non-Rotax OEM engine) … >>



 Kolb Friends –



 It’s always interesting to hear the chat about new “alternative” 

 engine ideas – we’ve seen several candidates mentioned over the past 

 few years. Usually, the collective wisdom of this List comes back with 

 advice that suggests that the most reliable engines are ones that have 

 been around for awhile, and have proven themselves in the fleet of 

 already-flying airplanes. Good advice, for sure, but …



 There is a new, start-up aircraft engine company called Viking 

 Aircraft Engines that I am very interested in watching how its 

 development goes. They’re developing a new engine aimed at the Light 

 Sport Aircraft market, and the engine is based on a Honda 4-cylinder 

 engine. Has anyone seen these ads in EAA’s Sport Pilot magazine? 

 Claims are 110 hp, from an engine “about the same weight” as the 

 venerable Rotax-912S. The guy heading up this effort is Jan 

 Eggenfellner, who’s been converting Subaru engines for Experimental 

 aircraft for decades – he definitely comes with the right background 

 and lots of experience. They’ve developed a PSRU for this new Viking 

 engine, and it’s said operate in the same RPM range as the 912. 

 Supposed to be priced “competitively” with the 912 also.



 This venture could be successful where other “alternative” engines 

 have failed, primarily because of Honda’s global reputation for making 

 excellent engines. This could also contribute to an affordable product 

 that comes from economy of volume – Honda makes zillions of these 

 little engines. All we need is the right guy to design and adapt a 

 good redrive on it (and a few other details) to make it compatible for 

 aircraft use.



 I hope he succeeds – it would be nice to give Rotax a bit of worthy 

 competition! I’ll be watching …



 Dennis Kirby



 Mark-3, 912ul



 Sandia Park, NM



 do not archive



No argument on the quality/durability of Hondas (I drive one) but I'd 
	


suggest taking a closer look at Egg's record in the homebuilt market 

with the Subaru derivatives, particularly his turbo & supercharged 

models, and the various reduction drives he's sold, and his treatment of 

paying customers when he realizes that existing products can't be made 

to work.



Charlie

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Alternative Engines

The engine is certainly appealing, I hope they can make it work.  Given that it is a 100 HP class engine, if I were building that for an airplane, I would just use a Rotax 912-S gearbox and avoid all the Re-Drive problems.  This is such a historically bad failure point, using a known gearbox like the Rotax would be a really good solution.  The 912-S is known for having very strong power pulses, so this gear box may work very well with a Honda engine.



The Subaru engine has been a disaster in many cases.  Most cases where I have read about the Subaru being installed on planes, in the end the owners said that a certified Lycoming engine would have been more reliable and CHEAPER after all was said and done.



So while the idea of a modern auto conversion is very appealing to me, I would be very wary until there were enough of them out there flying reliably and lasting a lot of hours to even consider one.



Mike

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Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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